Screwed again: Proposed THF job adjustments.

http://s1099.photobucket.com/albums/g399/smushpics/

here some pics from T4 VWNMs of rudra strom and there is one fudo. There stacked ofc but easy to land SA and TA on thes things unstacked i got up to 1.5k.

im tryin to get ls mate to post the parses from that day but i know me and a ukon topped the parse and where really close togeather to be that close is way good enough for me in thf DD. So far only one i cant rape is havhava but no melee can really rape him he has somekinda phy dmg taken -% effect but i did do a 1.5k highest i seen was a 2k ukko on him.

Ragni, that's because you can't read. ^^;

Ofcourse i can read. You guys want to decrease gap between the best DD and thf? Seriously what gap? You can DD very well (good example Smush pics), have good evasion and th. Seriously you guys want to be DD like WAR or something lol. THF can do very good dmg. Maybe its time to learn how to play properly on this job instead rage on forums? ^^

Indeed thf can do very well on thes new nms.
I do think we need better hate management and support abilities tho.

also we get DW2 faster 8 lvls 5-7 i say from DW1 so we could end up with higher then 3 if the trend cont. im sure i read a lvl 88 thf had DW2 on alla before thats 5 lvls after DW1 ill try and find a link.
but if so 93 DW3 and 97 DW4 that could be the case and maybe they will let us merit it if we get DW4 /war will be crazy.

THF falls behind with stacked haste, as shown by the numbers. THF has a huge variable to dd like no other job, and odds are we probably won't have 100% performance even if we wanted (hit every sa/ta). Finally, a thf without Rudra or Mercy access isn't really on the DD fight.

ohh, 88 with dw2? very interesting. I never really saw any specifics on this.

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Originally Posted by Ragni

From what i read here...

You guys want to be the best DDs, the best tanks etc... You have already very good evasion for tanking, good melee capabilities and th!

The best make THF the best in everything! SE give them black magic/dark magic/white magic too! ^^

This is response to people who still complain, why his job can't out damage WAR or other top DDs - face it THF isnt heavy DD its TH whore lol with some nice tool for fun.

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600+ posts saying the exact opposite... I just don't know sometimes....

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Originally Posted by Laphine

THF falls behind with stacked haste, as shown by the numbers. THF has a huge variable to dd like no other job, and odds are we probably won't have 100% performance even if we wanted (hit every sa/ta). Finally, a thf without Rudra or Mercy access isn't really on the DD fight.

ohh, 88 with dw2? very interesting. I never really saw any specifics on this.

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true when haste is a factor we fall behind but most NM are not full time melee unless zerg.
also if you dont have RS or MS mandlic stab is a great choice on high lvl nms ill post some pics when i can of it. and i think for the new nms you need emps on most jobs to see super high # i seen drakebane only max at 1.2 and avg less then 800 same with gekko i expect around that from RR on war with no blood rage.

and im sure i seen a lvl 88 thf test and they had DW2 ill have to find it wish i could test it myself ill have to find a lvl 88 person to sync too ill get on this

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You guys want to be the best DDs

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No.

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the best tanks

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No.

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You have already very good evasion for tanking

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No.

Tanking something harder than Potato (read: Beyond Abyssea), Our Evasion might save us from a few Physical hits, But nothing beyond that, and a tank needs more than "evading physical hits".

Sure, You'll evade a few hits, but the second it uses something other than a physical attack? have fun eating dirt lol. Evasion is nice but it really doesn't hold water against real mobs. THF is not a good tank on anything outside of trash, Like it has been since level 75.

Our Evasion makes us good for nothing but sack pulls and trash mobs, and even on trash mobs a NIN Tanks better, having more shadows and the ability to sub /DNC without losing out on shadows/survivability.

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good melee capabilities

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Yes and no, Our Melee capabilities are mediocre at best, We shine brightest on fights where everyone stands around doing nothing, since our SA and TA is actually tolerated and in a way bolstered due to limited meleeing.

So in a way, While our DD isn't the best, We shine in hard fights were Melee is not an option. But this is more irrelevant to me, as I've moved beyond the idea of a true DD. I realize our DD isn't the best but i also realize DD is a hard role to fill and unless you're the best you're likely not getting invited, so THF filling a secondary role would help us a lot more.

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and th!

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While there is a miniscule difference, the difference between Sub-job TH (TH2/TH3(Taru-sash) and Main job TH6+ is nil visible to the point its benefits are largely undetermined. Our TH is best, But likely by 1%. not really enough to justify our place in a party.

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The best make THF the best in everything! SE give them black magic/dark magic/white magic too! ^^

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I can smell your sarcasm, but it doesn't make it any less silly you would suggest this. No one in this thread has ever asked for anything this unreasonable, or come close too.

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This is response to people who still complain, why his job can't out damage WAR or other top DDs

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No one wants that. We've never even asked for that. At least, i can say, I never wanted this.

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Face it THF isnt heavy DD its TH whore lol with some nice tool for fun.

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We know THF isn't a heavy DD, but we also know TH and mediocre support abilities no one utilizes due to their horrible limited uses and horrible recast timers does not a job make.

The only thing keeping us in parties is our ignorance of how TH works, and with the mist rising on that it looks like bad news for THF.

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So what do we want to take away from all of this? THFs here aren't asking to be the best DD, or the best Tank, we want a real reason to be in a party, Placebo Hunter is not a real reason.

If SE wants us to Control Enmity, Give us more than Collaborator. 2 JA on a shared timer is not enough to make THF desired for Enmity control, its a stupid gimmick like TH. We're asking for more power in the field they want us to have power in, Support and Enmity control.

That is not asking too much. You may be comfortable with THF being a lowly TH whore (and not a good one at that) and a sub-par DD only invited to parties due to a Job trait that kept the job hideously mediocre since level 15, But we are not outside of our boundaries when we ask for something more to the job.

Bully has potential, I'll save my response to that when i see how it works.

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Originally Posted by Laphine

Same dps as before or same dps as nin? if the latter, did you set berserk up? lol

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/war's DPS was roughly the same as /nin's. And I *thought* I was factoring in Berserk, but double checking it, it seems I wasn't. So ignore that bit.

Also, since it's not really fair to just give top-end numbers on war, I got unlazy and redid them while including Restraint (50% uptime).

Code:

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              Hasso    Seigan
BAR (10%)  120.167    99.675
BA  (40%)  106.581    88.412
B  (20%)  106.443    87.160
A  (15%)    80.065    66.378
N  (15%)    79.958    65.403

Total        99.941    82.521

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And redoing thf/war (60% uptime for Berserk):

Code:

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No SA/TA or Rudra's:        62.087
No SA, Solo TA, solo Evis:  64.904
Solo SA/TA, solo Evis:      69.271
Solo SA, TA Rudra:          81.325
Solo TA, SA Rudra:          81.907
SA & TA Rudra:              93.218
No SA (miss), TA Rudra:      76.397

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So top end on thf should only be a little behind average war with Hasso. However missing stacked weaponskills, or just not being able to stack half the time, drops overall DPS quite a bit. Though even there, it should be roughly on par with a war that's forced to use Seigan.

On shorter fights (anything up to 3 minutes), war should be significantly ahead due to having JAs up all the time. Even for the values that consider the two DDs on par, war gets a significant additional advantage from using Retaliation, while thf loses DPS from the usual noted issues.


Overall, it seems that *in theory* thf is not in too bad a position, DD-wise, as long as fights last long enough. Parsed data, however, paints a far weaker picture. So I think it would be best to fully lay out how current mechanics are dragging performance down. Making suggestions to relieve thfs of some of those hobbles would probably be a better tack to take in terms of suggestions to SE (but given their response on things like Collaborator and Aura Steal, still not holding out too much hope).


Going /war is the most obvious damage boost, but that's a player choice, not a mechanic for SE to (directly) work on (aside from the fact that 2-handers that go /sam can choose between offense and defense on the fly, while other jobs have to pick one and stick with it for the duration).


Primary weakness of depending on SA/TA: Missing said attacks. Some have suggested adjusting the target arc or something similar. I'd probably suggest going the other direction, and make SA/TA like Feint, where it doesn't wear off until you successfully land the attack (or the 60 seconds duration runs out, whichever). It allows you to maintain a more constant DPS, rather than it falling off just because the mob changes position slightly. It's not a direct boost to DPS, it just pulls the damage values up closer to their true potential.

If SE feels like there's some need to at least have the basics mastered at earlier levels, add it as a job trait: Opportunity Strike (Sneak Attack and Trick Attack are maintained until an opportunity to use them can be found). Can make it like level 75-80 or so.

i think if we could SA just outside of mobs view i.e. side of mob like it was @ 1st i read then it would be fine. i wonder what that ability that complements SA and TA will be maybe it will help.

And you check how good /war would be with DW3 or 4?

If sa/ta worked like feint, yummy!^^

Based on the original manifesto in other languages and camate's post, i have high hopes that it is going to be a new forced crit JA. A very nice boost to our table too, but hopes and dreams can be shattered lol.

I really liked the idea about SA and TA always force criticaling from any position, but only getting the DEX and AGI bonuses from the correct position. Think that would be a pretty huge boost.
I also really liked making Steal take temp items, and on NMs taking r/e items and putting them in the drop pool.
Despoil giving a fixed debuff on a separate timer from steal, not linked to steal is also a great idea (as long as debuff and recast were close).
Accom/Collab having lowered recasts and separate timers, and thf having a means to dump that enmity on someone or altogether (hide fix) would also be awesome.
Aura steal having a lower timer and separate from steal would also be epic (but they'd have to nerf absorb rate).

Those are the kind of ideas that get thrown about the most for thf, excepting the first point, none of those are really DD related. Thfs aren't complaining about DD so much. Yeah it's lower than other DDs, but theoretically it's because we have our TH/debuffing/enmity management to fall back on too. Problem is those factors fail to deliver right now.

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Originally Posted by noodles355

I really liked the idea about SA and TA always force criticaling from any position, but only getting the DEX and AGI bonuses from the correct position. Think that would be a pretty huge boost.
I also really liked making Steal take temp items, and on NMs taking r/e items and putting them in the drop pool.
Despoil giving a fixed debuff on a separate timer from steal, not linked to steal is also a great idea (as long as debuff and recast were close).
Accom/Collab having lowered recasts and separate timers, and thf having a means to dump that enmity on someone or altogether (hide fix) would also be awesome.
Aura steal having a lower timer and separate from steal would also be epic (but they'd have to nerf absorb rate).

Those are the kind of ideas that get thrown about the most for thf, excepting the first point, none of those are really DD related. Thfs aren't complaining about DD so much. Yeah it's lower than other DDs, but theoretically it's because we have our TH/debuffing/enmity management to fall back on too. Problem is those factors fail to deliver right now.

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Don't bother recapping, the fail troll (or idiot, either/or) will appear again and disregard how many times this has been said and make another retarded Ragni post. If they haven't read that this was being said before, they won't just because someone recapped it.

Also Kin, out of curiousity, can you put a the above WAR's comparison against a BRD?

A DD bard? Or when getting brd buffs?

A DD BRD with BRD buffs. Thanks again for doing all this for us.

Ok, that'll take some some work since I don't have a brd spreadsheet; would have to create a new one, though it could be somewhat easier since I can pull Evisceration from the thf spreadsheet. Still, won't be soon.

climactic flourish is bs, so is war crit hit which more than likely will be used with ws just like the new drk ability that nerfs tp gain for increased damage will be used with ws

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Originally Posted by Concerned4FFxi

just like the new drk ability that nerfs tp gain for increased damage will be used with ws

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This doesn't even exist yet. Scarlet Delirium is being implemented instead, I assume, because it was a stupid idea.

I guess you aren't concerned enough to actually read the Job Adjustments post?

Edit: Also, Climactic Flourish works the way it does because Dancer gets saddled with weapon skills like Rudra's Storm which are designed to be forced to critical though job abilities. Rudra's Storm also happens to be the only reason a Dancer would use Climactic Flourish.

Edit II: The Editing: Man, the more I read this tiny post the more it confuses me. The Warrior ability to force a critical hit doesn't exist yet, either.

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Originally Posted by Motenten

Ok, that'll take some some work since I don't have a brd spreadsheet; would have to create a new one, though it could be somewhat easier since I can pull Evisceration from the thf spreadsheet. Still, won't be soon.

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I'm OK with that.

you could make a close simulation of a brd with the thf's spreadsheet if you want Alaik. Change the skill and stats values, change/add some gear, disregard sa/ta variables, and you've got yourself very close to what a brd is. Only thing missing is melee downtime due song casting.

I'm aware. However I'm not comfortable with the spreadsheet yet. I would be more likely just using a calc/mental math and writing it done if anything. But alas, I am scheduled to work 120 hours this week, so it's not getting done on my end.

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Originally Posted by Alaik

I am scheduled to work 120 hours this week

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Ouch! You might as well sleep there, and you still don't get 8 hours sleep if you collapse when you finish every night and start as soon as you wake up o.0

Paramedic, I get paid to try and get 8 hours at least. However most stations I work during the day keep me running around til at night. (OK so I don't get paid for 8 hours, but more like 5 naps that take 8 hours combined through the shift)

Posting from my droid after going to the hospital, coincidentally.

Arcon! Quick question~!

Could you have your parser separate procced from unprocced monsters in Dynamis? You could tell which color proc it is by the KIs received so far. I can't imagine it would be that different from pulling out TH levels. That way I have a large TH2 sample (a lot of DNC/NIN + WHM/THF runs) if anyone has a TH3 sample to compare it against.

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Originally Posted by Byrth

Arcon! Quick question~!

Could you have your parser separate procced from unprocced monsters in Dynamis? You could tell which color proc it is by the KIs received so far. I can't imagine it would be that different from pulling out TH levels. That way I have a large TH2 sample (a lot of DNC/NIN + WHM/THF runs) if anyone has a TH3 sample to compare it against.

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I'm sure I could. But I have no idea what you just said. I only did Newdyna about two times, so not really sure how it works. Could you /PM me details on FFXIAH?

i think only thing that thf is missing is widescan... what good is treasure hunter ability if u spend all ur time looking. people use thf for farming. drop rates sux as it is but and never know when nms are up. widescan ability for a farming job will create the ultimate thf.

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Originally Posted by litedragon

i think only thing that thf is missing is widescan... what good is treasure hunter ability if u spend all ur time looking. people use thf for farming. drop rates sux as it is but and never know when nms are up. widescan ability for a farming job will create the ultimate thf.

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go back under your bridge

Wouldn't mind getting Widescan to be honest. Help with a few things, but not enough relies on it that it would be game breaking anymore.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

go back under your bridge

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I didn't know how to reply to that post lol. I knew it was a troll but I also actually wouldn't really mind getting widescan haha.

truth be told, it surely would fit us to have widescan for treasure chests~

you guys gotta stop falling for this crap. devs read my 1 negative comment and your 3 positive and think "well they don't seem to like bully much... lets give them wide scan instead...".

As there have been a lot of concerns and comments cropping up about thief lately, here is some additional feedback from the development team.

Regarding the Efficacy of Aura Steal
When compared to Voracious Trunk, Osmosis, and Absorb-Attri, Aura Steal’s superiority really shines due to the fact that it is possible to elicit a dispel effect regardless of an enemy’s inherent resistances. Also, depending on how many merit points you’ve used to upgrade it, when you consider that you can reach a 100% rate of absorption, despite the recast timer being slightly long, the effects of Aura Steal are by no means weak.

While this is only one example, it might be possible to make Aura Steal its own ability and keep its recast timer shared with Steal. However, there is a high possibility that we will need to balance this by reducing the absorption rate as a trade-off, and I don’t think this would be very desirable.

We will be carefully looking into things for the revamps to the merit point effects, so we would like to take a good amount of time and hear all of your feedback.

Regarding Trick Attack and Decoy Shot
Decoy Shot, which is scheduled to be implemented in the upcoming version update, has been balanced more around the idea of controlling your own enmity. (We understand that the effects of Yoichinoyumi/Annihilator/Armageddon are similar, but since this is comparing an ability to a relic weapon, we think that’s an entirely separate discussion.)

Let’s take a look at the below comparison:

• Decoy Shot
Recast: 5 minutes
A set amount of enmity can be diverted to another player and any excess enmity will remain on the ranger.

• Trick Attack
Recast: 1 minute
All of the enmity generated at that time can be diverted to another player.

In regards to determining the stacking of the Treasure Hunter effect via TA WS, SA WS, and SATA WS
The reason why you cannot tell if the effect is increasing is due to the fact that it is difficult to make the log display the Treasure Hunter enhancement effect during a weapon skill.

If we try to make the increase display in the log during a weapon skill, the amount of work would be on par with multiple job adjustments, so we do not have any plans of making this particular adjustment. However, the fact that it is difficult to tell when the Treasure Hunter effect increases, means that we will be looking into other adjustments.

It's nice to have confirmation that TH can proc during a WS. That is, by the way, what I interpret the latter half of this to mean.

I don't think I would ever swap my merits out for more Aura Steal merits... I get by with 1 in it.
I guess that's my style choice, but can anyone make a case for dropping other merits to make aura steal a high absorption rate?

I guess it would be nice to have the timers separated for things like THFAF1 or stealing cells from qiqirn in Salvage. That's about the best thing I see in these notes... and, that's pretty bad imho.

I thank you for a second Update Camate :)

That being said, With the RNG Ability, Even if its only 10% of the Enmity per shot, it was said it would last 3 minutes. a RNG Shooting that for 3 minutes will likely give their target many many many times more enmity than a Trick attack would in that time. (Assuming no WS' are involved)

This might not be because TA is bad, Its simply THF is laughably weak. In the interest of Making Trick Attack not terrible, are there in plans to boost the damage through those abilities?

Perhaps add an Attack multiplier to SA and TA? Since the problem with those on hard enemies is that your attack is so low the damage is not great. If you can add a 2.0 or 1.66 Mult. to SA/TA it could go a long way in improving those abilities.

Perhaps even look into making SA and TA like Feint too? Meaning, The effect stays on until requirements are met. Further example: You use SA and the mob turns, SA does not wear off if you hit it, it will only wear off when the SA is successful or 1minute has passed.

Could that be worked?

On the note of Aura Steal, I understand is uniquesness, But 5 minutes is a bit long. Realistically, How many fights last more than 10-15 minutes? not even voidwatch mobs take that long. being able to dispel a mob once a fight is not really as broken as the devs make it sound.

Could you at least ask them if they could introduce something to reduce Steal's recast timer... Maybe to a max of ~3 minutes? It truthfully wouldn't be a big improvement but it would help in a small way. I understand the idea of maintaining balance, But as it stands THF is a very undesirable job for anything outside of Treasure hunter, and even then, well.. I don't need to repeat why TH has ruined the job.

Either way, You talk of Splitting Steal/Aura Steal. If you could put Aura Steal on a 1min~2miin timer, and make it share recast with steal in exchange for a much lower "Absorb" rate, not a single THF here would object to that. No one uses that ability to really "Steal" the buff, Its more of a "Dispel" thing, the absorb is a bonus.

So yah, If you're talking about Making Aura Steal separate than steal with a much lower Delay, Have at it. .If you're saying split them but make them share timers and both be 5 minutes still? Then yah, Keep them the same, that would be stupid of us too want..

Thanks again for the second update, Even though its kinda... grim, in terms of where THF is going. very very grim. I can be a little upset at the direction THF is going....

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Oh, Any more info on Bully? If its AOE, Single Target, THF only?

Really i wish just once We'd get a Rep response that brings good news

I know its not your fault Camate :( Don't think I'm blaming you.

Edit: I mean, Does the Dev team just not see the only real endgame role THF Fill is Treasure Hunter whore and Sac-puller? How can they justify leaving this job so undesirable that their only logical use is making them go suicide on a bunch of mobs to make a pull eaiser?

Why are they so afraid of giving us something useful?

Can you present these questions to them too. You can leave out the anger.

Even if aura steal processes on 100% of steal processes, steal process rate is still garbage, especially on NM's.

PS. How does Treasure Hunter work?

Now now Byrth, If they told us that, Their magical Life-raft of mediocrity that keeps THF Afloat in terms of semi-relevance would pop and all the THF's would drown in an ocean of useless.

Right next to SCH and DNC, Drowning and hoping SE throws them a life-jacket, but alas, We drown.

Bully was like throwing us a Life jacket made of Lead :O!

Plus they're not adding anything worth stealing because then people might want to steal things. As they told us.