Do Relic, Mythic, and Empyrean staves lack utility?

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Originally Posted by Sparthos

Where's Dallas exclaiming the only thing he replaces are Ukons.

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I replace incompetent SMN. It just so happens those SMN have all agreed to a uniform 2nd grade reading level.

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Originally Posted by Aurara

I really don't know a ton about smn, but with a dnc i think that haste samba>35 dmg per hit :x

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And Hastega > haste samba. What's your point? SMN can give more than one buff at a time...

Also, enspell damage helps 1h weapons (and multi-attacking) far more than 2h weapons. 35 extra damage on every hit, especially when you are using DW daggers or swords, is a lot. Throw in a kraken club, joytoy, ridill, or magian OAT weapon for extra fun.

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I replace incompetent SMN. It just so happens those SMN have all agreed to a uniform 2nd grade reading level.

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You're really not doing the SMN community any favors posting like this right now. That's all I have to say on that. If you want to argue a decent case, you need to go about it better than attacking and alienating the very group of people you're trying to get the attention of.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

And Hastega > haste samba. What's your point? SMN can give more than one buff at a time...

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You're wrong here. 100% completely wrong. Haste samba>Hastega. I can get a mage to haste me and get the same benefit.

Edit: took out the quite that wasnt for me, but i still feel you aren't making smn look any better.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

And Hastega > haste samba. What's your point? SMN can give more than one buff at a time...

Also, enspell damage helps 1h weapons (and multi-attacking) far more than 2h weapons. 35 extra damage on every hit, especially when you are using DW daggers or swords, is a lot. Throw in a kraken club, joytoy, ridill, or magian OAT weapon for extra fun.

You're really not doing the SMN community any favors posting like this right now. That's all I have to say on that. If you want to argue a decent case, you need to go about it better than attacking and alienating the very group of people you're trying to get the attention of.

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Hastega is the same haste as haste spell, and is magic haste.

Haste samba is the only way for jobs other than DRK to truly cap haste, as without it the highest you can get is 78% (Marchx2(+3) Haste spell caps magic haste (43.4%), 26% shown gear haste caps gear haste (25%) hasso gives 10% job ability haste (totaling 78.3% roughly) requiring anyone /dnc to cap haste.

So Haste Samba can be incredibly important because that 2% at that high numbers is like 20 more attacks per 100 rounds or something.

And that's why Haste Samba is better than hastega, since your WHM should be giving you haste anyway.

Oa2+ weaposn are pretty fail too, since they deal significantly low damage at the cost of feeding high TP. The TP:WS ratio does not make up for it in 90% of cases, where certain RNGs and DRKs make up the other 10%.

LOL. The "feeding the mob TP" excuse.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

LOL. The "feeding the mob TP" excuse.

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This can be a huge problem on tons of NMs (See Apademak, Pantokrator, Orthrus) in Abyssea and even more so in Voidwatch, if you're going to try to deny that you should at least explain yourself.

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

This can be a huge problem on tons of NMs (See Apademak, Pantokrator, Orthrus) in Abyssea and even more so in Voidwatch, if you're going to try to deny that you should at least explain yourself.

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Next you are going to tell us that some mobs you shouldn't melee because they absorb physical damage. It's funnier every time it's said.

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You're wrong here. 100% completely wrong. Haste samba>Hastega. I can get a mage to haste me and get the same benefit.

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I'm right here. 100% completely right. Haste > Haste samba. Haste = 15%. Haste samba = 10% if fully merited. Can you stack them? Yes, you can. But that doesn't mean that one isn't stronger than the other. SMN is that mage that can haste you- in fact, haste all of you at the same time, for less effort and less need to recast, since Hastega has a longer duration. Also, Haste samba only benefits meleeing. Hastega benefits everyone at all times.

If I'm on summoner, why would I want someone else to haste me and 5 other people one at a time when I can just do it all at once? Your logic is just plain baffling.

Leonlionheart I am fully aware of how haste works. I am fully aware that spell haste and haste samba stack That doesn't make Haste Samba magically more haste than Hastega. If for some wild and crazy reason you actually have a summoner with you, there is no reason in the universe for someone to be casting single target haste when hastega is available- since the point that I believe is attempting to be made here is that the spell Haste is easily accessible through many jobs from either main or sub. That's fine and all. But the first poster I quoted made a driect comparison between the spell Haste and the ability haste samba. Individually, the spell haste is clearly far superior. If you have to choose one or the other, Haste is the way to go. It is simply not possible to argue otherwise.

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And that's why Haste Samba is better than hastega, since your WHM should be giving you haste anyway.

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No, the WHM should not be giving you haste anyway, you're a summoner, and you have a haste of the same effect and longer duraiton that also hits everyone at once. Hastega is 100% unequivocally superior to haste samba. Saying "the WHM should be giving haste anyway" doesn't change the fact that haste is a stronger effect than haste samba. 15% and affects everything > 10% and only affects melee. Obviously both is better than one or the other or none. But stop acting like hastega and haste are like two different things or something. One is AoE and the other one isn't. That's all there really is to it. A summoner using Hastega greatly simplifies the haste process. Why do more work when you can do less? I guess you're trying to argue that Samba is better than hastega because haste and hastega don't stack and you're "going to have haste anyway." But if hastega is available, that should be what's being used, not single target haste. Hastega > Haste: Costs less MP in total and lasts longer.

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Next you are going to tell us that some mobs you shouldn't melee because they absorb physical damage.

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I read this a few times, and it got funnier every time I read it. Yes, you shouldn't melee *while the mob is absorbing* because it is absorbing.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Next you are going to tell us that some mobs you shouldn't melee because they absorb physical damage. It's funnier every time it's said.

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So you have no reply to my question, you must be a politician or something.

You have no answer. Good to know you are incompetent and can't support your claims, makes ignoring you that much easier.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

I'm right here. 100% completely right. Haste > Haste samba. Haste = 15%. Haste samba = 10% if fully merited. Can you stack them? Yes, you can. But that doesn't mean that one isn't stronger than the other. SMN is that mage that can haste you- in fact, haste all of you at the same time, for less effort and less need to recast, since Hastega has a longer duration. Also, Haste samba only benefits meleeing. Hastega benefits everyone at all times.

If I'm on summoner, why would I want someone else to haste me and 5 other people one at a time when I can just do it all at once? Your logic is just plain baffling.

Leonlionheart I am fully aware of how haste works. I am fully aware that spell haste and haste samba stack That doesn't make Haste Samba magically more haste than Hastega. If for some wild and crazy reason you actually have a summoner with you, there is no reason in the universe for someone to be casting single target haste when hastega is available- since the point that I believe is attempting to be made here is that the spell Haste is easily accessible through many jobs from either main or sub. That's fine and all. But the first poster I quoted made a driect comparison between the spell Haste and the ability haste samba. Individually, the spell haste is clearly far superior. If you have to choose one or the other, Haste is the way to go. It is simply not possible to argue otherwise.

No, the WHM should not be giving you haste anyway, you're a summoner, and you have a haste of the same effect and longer duraiton that also hits everyone at once. Hastega is 100% unequivocally superior to haste samba. Saying "the WHM should be giving haste anyway" doesn't change the fact that haste is a stronger effect than haste samba. 15% and affects everything > 10% and only affects melee. Obviously both is better than one or the other or none. But stop acting like hastega and haste are like two different things or something. One is AoE and the other one isn't. That's all there really is to it. A summoner using Hastega greatly simplifies the haste process. Why do more work when you can do less? I guess you're trying to argue that Samba is better than hastega because haste and hastega don't stack and you're "going to have haste anyway." But if hastega is available, that should be what's being used, not single target haste. Hastega > Haste: Costs less MP in total and lasts longer.

I read this a few times, and it got funnier every time I read it. Yes, you shouldn't melee *while the mob is absorbing* because it is absorbing.

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Haste Samba is better because it's a source of haste that can't be obtained otherwise. (Other than DRK)

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Haste Samba is better because it's a source of haste that can't be obtained otherwise.

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The fact that there is more than one way to get the effect of the haste spell does not make haste samba better. One effect is still superior to the other.

And again, if you're on summoner, there's no reason for the single target haste spell to be cast. Ever. I realize that summoner isn't exactly popular right now, but that fact remains.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

The fact that there is more than one way to get the effect of the haste spell does not make haste samba better. One effect is still superior to the other.

And again, if you're on summoner, there's no reason for the single target haste spell to be cast. Ever. I realize that summoner isn't exactly popular right now, but that fact remains.

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The thing is you should always have Haste spell on anyway, with or without a SMN. In the ideal DD setup (where you will want perfect haste) you should have DD DD DD DD DNC WHM where the DNC drops and a BRD comes in to rotate songs.

In that case you will never have a SMN, and that's another reason Samba is better.

But seriously It's much MUCH better than Hastega because its JA haste where Magic haste will usually be capped assuming you have BRD.

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

So you have no reply to my question, you must be a politician or something.

You have no answer. Good to know you are incompetent and can't support your claims, makes ignoring you that much easier.

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I don't have to answer any "feed TP" post, since it takes a lot of butthurt to assume that melee SMN would melee something that NO ONE melees except the tank. I laugh at you because your stupid argument means less and less in an increasingly easy game.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

I don't have to answer any "feed TP" post, since it takes a lot of butthurt to assume that melee SMN would melee something that NO ONE melees except the tank. I laugh at you because your stupid argument means less and less in an increasingly easy game.

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My WAR melees everything in abyssea, because my damage to tp fed ratio is out of this world, and I actually do damage with my TP.

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

My WAR melees everything in abyssea, because my damage to tp fed ratio is out of this world, and I actually do damage with my TP.

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That's cute, a WAR who needs to enter a pissing contest with a Hver SMN. What weapon did you bring for us today? It's probably a Ukon, or you might be fearing the wrath of the mathies.

"Feed TP" argument is all about the talent of the WHM. If a WAR can zerg it, everyone can zerg it. You aren't special in any way.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

That's cute, a WAR who needs to enter a pissing contest with a Hver SMN. What weapon did you bring for us today? It's probably a Ukon, or you might be fearing the wrath of the mathies.

"Feed TP" argument is all about the talent of the WHM. If a WAR can zerg it, everyone can zerg it. You aren't special in any way.

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You couldn't zerg it.

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

You couldn't zerg it.

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To elaborate, you couldn't zerg it because you don't have enough damage output to safely kill it at a speed that wouldn't completely drain the WHMs MP.

WAR can zerg things better than everyone because they are better than everyone in terms of DD in Abyssea, and most likely outside too. They kill things so fast that it doesn't matter how much damage the target does, assuming it's not one hitting you.

I don't know what you're trying to prove here dallas, SMN melee is and always has been a horrible idea, and doesn't hold a candle to top notch DD.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

LOL. The "feeding the mob TP" excuse.

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LOL, the stupid player thinking TP isn't important excuse.

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Originally Posted by Leon

I don't know what you're trying to prove here dallas, SMN melee is and always has been a horrible idea, and doesn't hold a candle to top notch DD.

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*cough*anyDD*cough*

The only jobs that are behind melee SMN in DD capacity are SCH and... no, that's it. Just SCH.

Anyway, basic summary of this thread is:
1) Situations where summoner is the best job to use are situations that are not conducive to meleeing.
2) Summoners that like playing summoner can do better damage on Summoner with 175 items sunk into an Emp staff than they could on a melee that they don't like playing (or potentially don't have leveled).

I know at least people are going to disagree with number 1, but no one has provided a single specific example of a situation that falls outside of my 3-5 "strategic uses" of Summoner. I've seen a lot of "I go summoner and it feels like helping enough that I'm better than an empty party slot" but not a lot of "This is why I'm better than any other job in this situation." When you claim something, the burden of proof is on you and not your opposition.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

I replace incompetent SMN. It just so happens those SMN have all agreed to a uniform 2nd grade reading level.

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Look at my post, now at yours, now mine sadlyyours aren't mine but they could be if you debated like an adult. You're the only one here with low level reading here

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Next you are going to tell us that some mobs you shouldn't melee because they absorb physical damage. It's funnier every time it's said.

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Did you really mean to say that?

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

The thing is you should always have Haste spell on anyway, with or without a SMN. In the ideal DD setup (where you will want perfect haste) you should have DD DD DD DD DNC WHM where the DNC drops and a BRD comes in to rotate songs.

In that case you will never have a SMN, and that's another reason Samba is better.

But seriously It's much MUCH better than Hastega because its JA haste where Magic haste will usually be capped assuming you have BRD.

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Why not DD DD DD DD/DNC SMN WHM and the BRD and SMN rotate exact same effect but it doesn't take 80secs for the WHM to finish haste cycle

smn can give 10% JA haste?

edit: misread

edit2: actually I still don't know wtf you're saying.

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Originally Posted by Byrth

Anyway, basic summary of this thread is:
1) Situations where summoner is the best job to use are situations that are not conducive to meleeing.
2) Summoners that like playing summoner can do better damage on Summoner with 175 items sunk into an Emp staff than they could on a melee that they don't like playing (or potentially don't have leveled).

1) These are the situations where SMN excels but they're far from the only time we're useful.

I know at least people are going to disagree with number 1, but no one has provided a single specific example of a situation that falls outside of my 3-5 "strategic uses" of Summoner. I've seen a lot of "I go summoner and it feels like helping enough that I'm better than an empty party slot" but not a lot of "This is why I'm better than any other job in this situation." When you claim something, the burden of proof is on you and not your opposition.

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I'm telling you the proof SMN is an amazing DD/Buffer/Support role if played by a skilled player. Are my buffs as good as a BRDs? no but my Damage is(hatefree and doesn't feed TP) and support abilities can be(more MP and MP management) and I can give more buffs at once. COR can either focus on DD or support to go along with thier buffs. Thier damage will be better and thier buffs most likely better But they're hardly leaving SMN in the dust.

2) SMN melee is a tool that certain SMNs use and can bring to the group if it's safe to melee on just like any other job

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Originally Posted by Bumbeen

smn can give 10% JA haste?

edit: misread

edit2: actually I still don't know wtf you're saying.

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SMN gives a full party Haste that lasts 5 minutes this is numkerically greater than 10% haste(if merited) that only affects melees.

My point was if you're trying to cap haste, why does the DNC replace the SMN most dual weilding classes can sub DNC for 5% haste sambawhich (going by the math put forward in this thread) is more than enough to cap haste in the group so why bother with the DNC when you can have a SMN hastega and rotate with the BRD as stated by Leonlionheart I jsut swapped the DNC for a SMN party still gets the same haste

So the smn is there to just save the whm mp that he doesn't even need?

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Originally Posted by Bumbeen

So the smn is there to just save the whm mp that he doesn't even need?

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To speed up the process and to be honest I've never been in a setup rotating a BRD. But for normal use exp/NM/event the SMN does a helluva lot more than save the WHM some MP. We add damage from a source the whm and tank don't need to worry about, we add buffs to the party and can still find time to support the party with heals etc.

Can't brd cor dnc and another whm do those functions or combinations of those functions better than smn? I think I have to agree smn can do none of those things(dmg, buffs, support) better than another job.

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Originally Posted by Bumbeen

Can't brd cor dnc and another whm do those functions or combinations of those functions better than smn? I think I have to agree smn can do none of those things(dmg, buffs, support) better than another job.

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Yes this is something I haven't tired to hide, focusing on one of these roles a SMN falls behind a specialist, but since a SMN can do all 3 well AT THE SAME TIME. SMN has no problem contributing to a party

How does smn do dmg if they're casting support spells and avatars for buffs? What are these buffs anyway? I am not familiar with smn so much. I think it's been covered pretty well in this thread that smn doesn't do any useful dmg.

Would not a war/dnc be better? They can do dmg, support heals, and party buffs too.(and they're all instant, no casting!)

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Originally Posted by Bumbeen

How does smn do dmg if they're casting support spells and avatars for buffs? What are these buffs anyway? I am not familiar with smn so much. I think it's been covered pretty well in this thread that smn doesn't do any useful dmg.

Would not a war/dnc be better? They can do dmg, support heals, and party buffs too.(and they're all instant, no casting!)

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the Damage comes From BP: Rages 2k damage every 45secs isn't great, but coming from a guy who is cycling ~4 buffs including haste and is still helping the mages support the party it's a nice bonus.

We can give a fairly wide array of buffs only thing we're really missing is a realistic refresh We give some nice offensive buffs like hastega and enfire and attack bonus.

We can defnesive buffs like Earthen armor and nocto shield and shining ruby.

And hate free AoE heals.

Aside from the summoning time avatar buffs are instant cast, after it goes off I'm back to supporting the party instantly. Plus the WAR will be wasting it's TP to cure thus lowering it's overall damage.Plus I don't see why I'd be competing with the WAR/DNC our buffs and his buffs/debuffs would stack so if we worked together we would bosst the party better and he could get back to DDing not worrying about cures

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Originally Posted by Razushu

the Damage comes From BP: Rages 2k damage every 45secs isn't great, but coming from a guy who is cycling ~4 buffs including haste and is still helping the mages support the party it's a nice bonus.

We can give a fairly wide array of buffs only thing we're really missing is a realistic refresh We give some nice offensive buffs like hastega and enfire and attack bonus.

We can defnesive buffs like Earthen armor and nocto shield and shining ruby.

And hate free AoE heals.

Aside from the summoning time avatar buffs are instant cast, after it goes off I'm back to supporting the party instantly. Plus the WAR will be wasting it's TP to cure thus lowering it's overall damage.Plus I don't see why I'd be competing with the WAR/DNC our buffs and his buffs/debuffs would stack so if we worked together we would bosst the party better and he could get back to DDing not worrying about cures

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Damn that is awesome didn't know smn had all those buffs. I think best would maybe to get a whole PT of smns together then, and they could all buff and support each other and do some dmg too.

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Originally Posted by Bumbeen

Damn that is awesome didn't know smn had all those buffs. I think best would maybe to get a whole PT of smns together then, and they could all buff and support each other and do some dmg too.

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If they made it so pets can recieve buffs that would help.

Pet burns are awesome and great fun butit can be hard to get 4-5 other SMNs to kill the same mob because chances are we want the same gear off it

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COR can either focus on DD or support to go along with thier buffs. Thier damage will be better and thier buffs most likely better But they're hardly leaving SMN in the dust.

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They really are. For example, with GGs sample mob from before a COR's damage from WSs alone would be about 540dps. That isn't factoring in QD damage or TP phase damage. They supply buffs that are straight up competitive with BRD. Flat out 18% more attack, or 16% more DA, or 20% more TP, etc. [I]Strong[/I] buffs which are universally good. If a COR does /whm it is just as capable of throwing out -nas and back up healing as a SMN. It doesn't do 'one or the other' any more than SMN is doing 'one or the other'. If BRD didn't have unique magic Haste songs (and now Scherzo) you would use 2x COR instead, it's that good.

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Originally Posted by Bumbeen

smn can give 10% JA haste?

edit: misread

edit2: actually I still don't know wtf you're saying.

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No, it can give 15% spell haste, which is a larger amount of haste than 10% when considered individually. The only thing that makes haste samba "better" is that it fills haste in a different category. It's only "better" because it's "necessary." Spell haste is necessary too, it's simply more readily available. And until you have your spell haste, spell haste is superior to JA haste because it affects attack speed and cast timers, while JA haste only affects attack speed.

The appropriate sentence would be "Samba haste is more *important* than haste because you can't always have it, while haste is much easier to obtain."

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On COR: It seems like people are vastly underestimating it's possible damage output CORs use guns, and they don't kid around. CORs have a bit lower skill than RNG and don't have the offensive JAs of RNG, but their damage can still be good if they focus on it. This requries standing in the apprpriate position of course, so buffing of others might suffer unless you move to buff and move back to ideal range. But COR is a pretty under-rated job. I think the only reason it's not played more is because it's expensive.

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Originally Posted by TybudX

They really are. For example, with GGs sample mob from before a COR's damage from WSs alone would be about 540dps. That isn't factoring in QD damage or TP phase damage. They supply buffs that are straight up competitive with BRD. Flat out 18% more attack, or 16% more DA, or 20% more TP, etc. [I]Strong[/I] buffs which are universally good. If a COR does /whm it is just as capable of throwing out -nas and back up healing as a SMN. It doesn't do 'one or the other' any more than SMN is doing 'one or the other'. If BRD didn't have unique magic Haste songs (and now Scherzo) you would use 2x COR instead, it's that good.

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Again no one is saying my SMN will out DD will out damage a COR. I don't now why I have to repeat that every second post or so. Also this is a style I've been playing for a long time so I know it works it isn't as effective as a COR DD/buffer or a COR support/buffer but the combo of support/DD/buffer is still effective enough to warrant my place.

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We can give a fairly wide array of buffs only thing we're really missing is a realistic refresh

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Uh, Favor is a great source of refresh, in part because it's a different effect like COR's and BRDs and stacks with all of them. If you're being stuck with the mages, it's basically the best favor effect (well, there's MAB on shiva too)

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

The thing is you should always have Haste spell on anyway, with or without a SMN. In the ideal DD setup (where you will want perfect haste) you should have DD DD DD DD DNC WHM where the DNC drops and a BRD comes in to rotate songs.

In that case you will never have a SMN, and that's another reason Samba is better.

But seriously It's much MUCH better than Hastega because its JA haste where Magic haste will usually be capped assuming you have BRD.

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droping the dnc is stupid, a buffed dnc is better than an unbeffed one (drop the whm, he don't need to be in pt for most spells anyway)

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Originally Posted by Razushu

Why not DD DD DD DD/DNC SMN WHM and the BRD and SMN rotate exact same effect but it doesn't take 80secs for the WHM to finish haste cycle

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because DD/DDsub +DNC outdmg DD/dnc +smn

and why use a job that is only good once every min to save haste cycle to the whm?
and IMO if smn have a buff that is worth using, loosing 45sec because you wasted your ward for hastega when the whm could have done it is waste.

Good god. How many groups are these people in where there are no other mages tossing out Haste such that Summoner's Hastega suddenly means a flying frappoli?

Protip: When the people in the party would be getting Spell Haste with or without a Summoner, Hastega means absolutely nothing. You are not providing 15% Haste to the party. You are providing 120~ MP to the White or Red Mage. Net gain to DDs from Summoner's Hastega? Zero.

I'm not sure where this "I can do 3 things that Cor can do, all weaker than COR, but I still earn my place" deal is coming from either. I'm sorry, but your definition of "earning a spot" is just different from other people's. Are people going to kick you out of the spot for being useless? No. Are you really contributing as much as anyone else in the group? I'm sorry, but absolutely not. Fortunately for Summoners everywhere, FFXI players are used to having to pull other people's weight on a regular basis.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Uh, Favor is a great source of refresh, in part because it's a different effect like COR's and BRDs and stacks with all of them. If you're being stuck with the mages, it's basically the best favor effect (well, there's MAB on shiva too)

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Yeah it's just the constant resetting that brings it down for me. If they ever fix favor I'd gladly use it lol