Level 99 Relic, Mythic, Empyrean, and WoE Weapons

I can't find the translation for the post I'm looking for on BG, but iirc the last time they talked about this in depth (JP only post), they did indeed say that 90+ Empyreans or 99 WoE weapons would grant WS access. SE's vision for FFXI seems to have changed dramatically in the last ~2 months, though, so who knows what they're thinking now.

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Originally Posted by Byrth

I can't find the translation for the post I'm looking for on BG, but iirc the last time they talked about this in depth (JP only post), they did indeed say that 90+ Empyreans or 99 WoE weapons would grant WS access. SE's vision for FFXI seems to have changed dramatically in the last ~2 months, though, so who knows what they're thinking now.

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Where as I like seeing this information, since I have been wondering about it myself (my gun is sitting on its final VNM cause I wanna know if I should make Arma or go for coin) why was this information only passed in a Japanese post? This is a topic that effects a lot of players and it is personally the topic I have wanted to hear about the most.

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Originally Posted by Luscia

why was this information only passed in a Japanese post?

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Why was there a show or video that was made only in Japanese that explained a bunch of new things that had to be found on Youtube, and took like 2 weeks for us to get an English rundown on? Its simple, we know where their priorities are.

I hope that this is the case and really its only sensible way to unlock emp ws if rem revamp is 99 only, my ls all have lvl 90 emps and proly none of them have access to the funds needed to 99 as im sure many people are I same position me included. I have my woe greataxe sat there eagerly waiting to breath ukkos fury life into my bravura 99, I cant wait. anyone know when fall update going to be?

There's stuff like the skill they added onto post-Adoulin weapons. With skill on the weapons alongside all the other things it affects (Spell interruption rate, magic accuracy/damage...I wouldn't be surprised if they ended up adjusting it so that it also affects things like skillchain accuracy) wearing anything underneath the maximum ilevel weapon provides ridiculous downsides.

Consider a while back when originally they made it sound like they wanted to make it so that RMEs would be sidegrades to the best weapons in the game. It seemed like a reasonable compromise, but now with all the stuff they obviously shoved into the game in the eleventh hour without putting any thought in for the long term effects even if they had finished drafted up ideas for the RME redesign it's completely pointless to release it now, because they'd be releasing a bunch of updated weapons that nobody uses.

Really I've given up on them giving any reasonable update to RMEs just because of how poorly thought-out this whole content level thing has been, especially in regards to weapons. Honestly it's not just about the weapons anymore, the whole game is really out of whack as a result of it IMO.

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Originally Posted by Kincard

There's stuff like the skill they added onto post-Adoulin weapons. With skill on the weapons alongside all the other things it affects (Spell interruption rate, magic accuracy/damage...I wouldn't be surprised if they ended up adjusting it so that it also affects things like skillchain accuracy) wearing anything underneath the maximum ilevel weapon provides ridiculous downsides.

Consider a while back when originally they made it sound like they wanted to make it so that RMEs would be sidegrades to the best weapons in the game. It seemed like a reasonable compromise, but now with all the stuff they obviously shoved into the game in the eleventh hour without putting any thought in for the long term effects even if they had finished drafted up ideas for the RME redesign it's completely pointless to release it now, because they'd be releasing a bunch of updated weapons that nobody uses.

Really I've given up on them giving any reasonable update to RMEs just because of how poorly thought-out this whole content level thing has been, especially in regards to weapons. Honestly it's not just about the weapons anymore, the whole game is really out of whack as a result of it IMO.

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Yes, iLevel is about the dumbest concept they've ever implemented in this game and will be almost impossible to ever balance correctly going forward.

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Originally Posted by Stompa

So how about basing the damage of lvl 99 weapons used by lvl 99 chars, on the DIFFICULTY of obtaining those weaps. By the way this would put coin and magian weapons in a higher bracket than Delve NM weaps, since magians and coin weaps take weeks or months to get and delve weaps don't.

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You are confusing difficulty with time taking. Fighting a hoard of level 95 mobs in Dynamis for 2 hours every day for 2~3 months is not on the same difficulty level as fighting Tojil, Dakuwaqa, or Muyingwa. Given, yes, they are much more time taking, so are Magian weapons where you go slaughter hoards of level 65~90 mobs for a trial, or doing WoE, or making a Mythic, or camping lottery NMs. But in the end, if you want the power of a weapon to go by difficulty, and not time taken, then Delve weapons are where they should be right now, Tojil, Dakuwaqa, and Muyingwa are all harder than ADL, Pandemonium Warden, VW NMs, or WoE bosses.

That being said, I look forward to my weapons being upgraded, I simply hope they give them either a few updates as SoA progresses, or they give them enough power to remain relevant for the rest of the time this game is around.

Difficulty is how hard something is, I can kill level 75 and 95 mobs with my eyes closed, Tojil however will rip my ass apart in less than 30 seconds.

Time taking is simply how long something takes to complete, I can do a Tojil in 30 minutes, but a Relic would take me months to farm.

Very different things. If you want more difficult things to be stronger, then they need to make RMECs harder than Delve weapons, at the same time, if you want more time taking things to be stronger, then they should simply upgrade RMECs, yes. What you should really be saying is you want whatever takes the most investment to be best.

I love the way both you want the same things but are rowing with each other about the reasons behind wanting the same thing. I think we can all agree the important thing is to keep the weapons that take ages which makes them hard to make on top of the weapons that take 30 min and drop from nms that are hard to kill. so sayeth the pretre

Do I agree that they need upgraded? Yes, do I agree they should be upgraded because they are in any way difficult or hard? No, I believe they should be upgraded because of the large amount of investment that any player puts into making one, not difficulty, but rather the act of perseverance it takes to achieve such a weapon.

The issue with upgrading them is that as it has been said before, if they increase gear levels beyond what they are now, but put RMEs at the current level cap of roughly 120 then it will be meaningless. They will be cool for a month, next month level 125 weapons will come out which blow these away and have a ton more accuracy, so we will use those, and just learn our Emp WS if our merit one sucks like WAR, then move along.

Why is there still no new news since May? Can the Devs give us a bone please, let us know the progress of things?

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Originally Posted by Yoji_Fugito

•Relic, mythic, and empyrean weapon revamps
•Unlocking empyrean weapons skills
•Artifact revamps
Sorry to keep you all waiting on this without giving a time-frame, but for the above three points we are currently making preparations to implement all of them simultaneously in the version update to take place in fall.

For the artifact equipment revamps, we are planning to make it so you can bring artifact equipment up to the standards of geomancer and rune fencer artifact equipment. Hang in there for more information related to the quests for this.

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They have actually, just no one sees it, this is from August 21st.

I saw it and I appreciate the fact they said something about it but its still lacking in info. would be nice if they said if there going with original idea of dmg just below boss weapons or not or any info really, all we can do still is take guesses using 3 month old posts as a guide which could be no were near there new plans as they have said "were discussing the REM issue" a number of times since the sword stats were posted, but to be honest I do feel happier knowing this update is soonish, or maybe its because GTA V SOON!!!!!!!!!

I now its not much, but it is an estimation of when we are going to be getting it. With any luck, we will hear more amount what exactly will be happening between RMECs & AF as well sometime soon. I just wanted to point out that we are not completely without hope, and its not as though we have heard nothing about them since may, we have had word, its just not very descriptive on what exactly will be happening. Trust me, I want to know as badly as you do what the details of the update will be, I really rather hope my Excalibur becomes better than my Buramenk'ah, then I can off-hand Bura & feel like a badass again. In all honestly, a lot of questions to be asked about them, any changes besides DMG? How much Skill? What do we need to do to get them? But for now, its at least something, a time frame, and while that doesn't mean much with SE, its better than simply staying quiet in my opinion.

Were seriously arguing over the definition of a word at this point... Look, all I was saying is that it can take a lot of time, effort, and determination, but to me that does not make it hard or difficult, to be hard or difficult it has to be something that you can not always the winner, something which requires skill & strategy to win. Like I said, the Excalibur & Almace I made as well as my Attack Sword, 3 PDT Swords, 2 PDT GA, PDT Club, 3 PDT Axes, and the Ice staff I helped my GF make all took time and effort, yes, but none of them were difficult in the least due to the fact every one of them involved me fighting something weak as the goal except for Goublefaupe, and the occasional Bria or Sobek I soloed. As I said, I know they are time and effort taking, but they are not difficult, and not hard, that's all I have been saying, and its the last thing I am gonna say on the subject, because all were doing is arguing what a word means basically, and that word is, difficult.

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Originally Posted by pretre

I love the way both you want the same things but are rowing with each other about the reasons behind wanting the same thing. I think we can all agree the important thing is to keep the weapons that take ages which makes them hard to make on top of the weapons that take 30 min and drop from nms that are hard to kill. so sayeth the pretre

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Sure- if you want to kill advancement save through a huge chain of content that's gone by the wayside.

Giving an update to RME? Absolutely fine and indeed, awesome. Making them the top of the food chain again? No. They should be upgradable to similar levels as a legacy kudo to oldschool players, but making people jump through the same hoops endlessly? No.

And that doesn't even take what an upgraded RME will do for a dual-wield job.

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Originally Posted by Rustic

Sure- if you want to kill advancement save through a huge chain of content that's gone by the wayside.

Giving an update to RME? Absolutely fine and indeed, awesome. Making them the top of the food chain again? No. They should be upgradable to similar levels as a legacy kudo to oldschool players, but making people jump through the same hoops endlessly? No.

And that doesn't even take what an upgraded RME will do for a dual-wield job.

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so what lvl would you suggest they get raised to if not top of the food chain

aren't RME and Delve weapons all content that has gone to the wayside anyways? I mean is there some secret way to get them without having beaten all the content long before? You at least have to be in the zone to get most of this stuff, which implies that you are at least buying the items from people who got bored of the content long ago.

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Originally Posted by pretre

so what lvl would you suggest they get raised to if not top of the food chain

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Twohanded ones to a match with the top content, offhandable ones to the level of an offhand top-end weapon from the endgame of Adoulin. Bonus if the weapon in question gets to be raised multiple times to, say an ilvl 113-116, then to whatever we end up with at the end of Adoulin later. Above and beyond means -every single player has to grind old, obsolete content to be endgame material-. There needs to be a balance. RME should remain useful, but Adoulin should give similar alternatives lest we end up with people having to hammer through the entire RME cycle just to be able to play with the "big boys". Otherwise, we're sticking a sign on top content for expansions that says "Don't have RME? Screw you.".

See here's the thing, with this player base you have 2 options, Make RMEs the best, people will make RMEs, or do not make RMEs the best, and no one bothers. If you make them slightly better, just barely better than everything else, you will have a few people do them but not that many, and at the same time, we all know that people will exclude others based on it, just like people do now with Oats, Senbaak, and so on. You cant make them not the best and expect anyone to ever make a RME again besides the special use ones like Apoc or Yagrush.

Why can't we just have it so that RMEs require doing current endgame to upgrade? Put RME back on top (or close to it) but make it so you have to do Delve and WKR to upgrade them. RME people are happy, everybody else is getting Oats, Upukirex, and other fantastic pieces of gear out of the deal.

The problem with that is that in order to get one, say, a Relic... You have to first goto Dynamis, get all your currency and other items, then goto do trials around the world, then go back to Dyna for some specific NMs, then kill ADL a few times, then finally you are up to doing the trials for Adoulin. In the case of Emps, go kill random NMs, VNMs, then Aby NMs, then VWNMs, then finally your up to Adoulin. I think the issue is that you have to do so much back logged shit to get to Adoulin stages that it becomes an issue, and in all honestly, I understand why a lil bit.

That's a completely different complaint isn't it? You're saying that the issue is the difficulty/annoyance of doing old content to make an RME.

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Originally Posted by detlef

Why can't we just have it so that RMEs require doing current endgame to upgrade? Put RME back on top (or close to it) but make it so you have to do Delve and WKR to upgrade them. RME people are happy, everybody else is getting Oats, Upukirex, and other fantastic pieces of gear out of the deal.

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Not correct. You then have people going "RMEs with upgrades only" for new content instead, meaning that everyone and their grandma has to go through the same sadistic process of pushing through an RME weapon to get into endgame, because Adoulin gear is second-best in that scenario and item level is king- and you've just made RME upgrades the top dog.

And why the HECK are we making players jump through the massive hoops of that sort of thing any more? While you're at it, shall we get Abyssea AF "+3'd" so you can keep wearing that too and have the best armor of all, and the heck with having Adoulin relevant to begin with?

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Originally Posted by Rustic

While you're at it, shall we get Abyssea AF "+3'd" so you can keep wearing that too and have the best armor of all, and the heck with having Adoulin relevant to begin with?

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Just to say, I actually hypothesize that it will end up getting +3ed. I assume AF will be +2ed in order to match Adoulin standards as the GEO & RUN AF are in power, since after all, they are talking about AF revamps, and since we know RUN & GEO will be getting Relic & Empyrean gear as well, it makes sense that if that's what they do, the others will follow suit. If so, it would also make sense on why RUN & GEO do not have AF+1, since their default AF is powerful enough to fit the standard Adoulin set, and as such, needs no further upgrade, while the other AFs are caught up to that very same standard.

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Originally Posted by Rustic

Not correct. You then have people going "RMEs with upgrades only" for new content instead, meaning that everyone and their grandma has to go through the same sadistic process of pushing through an RME weapon to get into endgame, because Adoulin gear is second-best in that scenario and item level is king- and you've just made RME upgrades the top dog.

And why the HECK are we making players jump through the massive hoops of that sort of thing any more? While you're at it, shall we get Abyssea AF "+3'd" so you can keep wearing that too and have the best armor of all, and the heck with having Adoulin relevant to begin with?

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You can preface a post with "I disagree" instead of "not correct" and come off a lot better. How is “X weapon only” any different from any period in FFXI? How is it different from Empy-only VW or Delve weapon-only plasm runs? No matter what you do, as soon as weapons of a certain class become commonplace enough for group leaders to reasonably fill the alliance, people will begin to demand them.

Also, what kind of hoops are you talking about? If you’re talking about Empy 95-99 then yes that’s unreasonable. Likewise, Mythic to 75 has been discussed to death. But relics to 99 are a reasonable long-term goal for anybody. Long term goals that can be completed on the side are the most crucial aspect missing from the game right now.

Also, the point has been made dozens of times, but legendary weapons have always been different from armor. While people expect and are prepared for armor to be obsoleted periodically, nobody could have seen Delve weapons coming. The game revolved around making these weapons for the two years prior to Adoulin.

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Originally Posted by Rustic

Twohanded ones to a match with the top content, offhandable ones to the level of an offhand top-end weapon from the endgame of Adoulin. Bonus if the weapon in question gets to be raised multiple times to, say an ilvl 113-116, then to whatever we end up with at the end of Adoulin later. Above and beyond means -every single player has to grind old, obsolete content to be endgame material-. There needs to be a balance. RME should remain useful, but Adoulin should give similar alternatives lest we end up with people having to hammer through the entire RME cycle just to be able to play with the "big boys". Otherwise, we're sticking a sign on top content for expansions that says "Don't have RME? Screw you.".

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yea I befine with this so long as the weapon went up as the top weapons did

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Originally Posted by Stompa

B) People like long-term building, challenges, etc. I never complained once about building RME, until SE added forefront weaps that are more powerful and are basically the SOA version of a mercenary's knife ie. a lolconquestpoints weapon. I do rieves with NQ empy 99 and miss the mobs, or hit them for puny damage, but if only i used a forefront weapon that i can build in 20 minutes, I would out-damage and out-accuracy my NQ 99empy that took like 16 months hard work to obtain. That is the problem. If people want to use SOA weaps, thats great, no complaints, hope they have fun. But why those 30-minutes-to-obtain killing weak baby mobs bayld weaps make my 99 NQ empy look totally gimp, is a gigantic FAIL by square-enix, it is a logic fail and a player-hating thing to do. And thats just forefront weaps, I'm not even starting about empy v. delve weaps time-effort & dmg/delay, which is even more brainless and seems like they actually hate people who worked hard pre SOA.

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It's not that they hate the players.... it's just an.... out-of-touch oversight.
Matsui has a vision of a tiered highlevel post 99 system for Adoulin... One that I for one find very fun and rewarding... (skirmish armor augments aside... cause... screw those!)
And while this is all good and fun and all that... He overlooked the human condition: nostalgia and empathetic ties.
Why do people who make REMs feel so put off from having them become trash instantly?
It's not just "I spent 3mo on this, why does that take only 1hr!?"... it's actually more the result of having to have built those weapons.
Because those weapons took a looooooong time to make, humans' brains will associate them with the fun they have while playing the game while building them. So they form a sentimental attachment to them....
And THAT is why REM ppl got so pissed off.

it's not "you made my 3mo weapon that I worked my ass off trash by a weapon it takes 2hr to get"
it's "you made my friend that I built from nothing worthless by some cheap floozie you get for no effort".
This is what is really at the heart of the REM controversy.

And I can't say if Matsui just never took into account the human condition... or if he just didn't care...
But the update is coming soon (I think it's scheduled for the end of the month/next month's update).
Though I would rather see just the "99-2" Afterglow REMS get iLv'd (106ish maybe? actually make the 99s 103ish too.) and then introduce 3-5 more magian trials to bring them up to 120 or wherever the devs want the iLvs to cap at. EX: 99A<106> to 99A<109> to 99A<113> to 99A<120> or whatever
But don't make them some BS like 30000 somethings. Make it reasonable like the 90-99 elemental trials. (15 geodes, 40 geodes, 15 -ites. reasonably done.)
Because it's not just the whole "this weapon gives me this WS" or even "this weapon makes this weapon skill 50% more damaging"....
It's that this weapon has been my friend through the hardest things I've had to face... and I want them to be with me until the end.
(which, IMO is kinda the whole POINT of the Magian Trials that updated RMs from 75 to 99 and 99-2.)

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Originally Posted by detlef

You can preface a post with "I disagree" instead of "not correct" and come off a lot better. How is “X weapon only” any different from any period in FFXI? How is it different from Empy-only VW or Delve weapon-only plasm runs? No matter what you do, as soon as weapons of a certain class become commonplace enough for group leaders to reasonably fill the alliance, people will begin to demand them.

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Because X weapon should not be "weapon that takes ages to catch up to endgame in a completely different area when everything else is plasm farming and bayld". Now, if they also did AF +3 the same way, making it a similar long-term goal in such areas? We're all equal then. Equally miserable, but equal. The heavier the burden of getting what's considered "required for endgame", the worse things will become. Look at it.

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Also, what kind of hoops are you talking about? If you’re talking about Empy 95-99 then yes that’s unreasonable. Likewise, Mythic to 75 has been discussed to death. But relics to 99 are a reasonable long-term goal for anybody. Long term goals that can be completed on the side are the most crucial aspect missing from the game right now.

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You mean sitting there and stabbing ADL repeatedly for vials of marrow easy? Again, I'm not talking rendering RME obsolete, I'm talking making RME's useful but not -required- for endgame.

Let those who had them, update them to make them useful again. Let those that didn't NOT have to go through the same song and dance to face top content.

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Originally Posted by Stompa

A) Because many people have already jumped through all those hoops, only to wake up one morning to discover their RME is now gimp compared to a colonisation rieve forefront weapon you can obtain in 30 minutes fighting too-weak mobs.

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"They stopped that hideous, agonizingly long process of grinding up a weapon that's good enough to do content as it's released."

"THAT SUCKS! EVERYONE ELSE SHOULD BE FORCED TO DO THE SAME AGONIZING GRIND!"

As for time spent as being a required investment, come back when you were busy camping Ridill before you had such wonderful things like "pop items". Clearly, because it took years for that, Ridill should have been upgraded to be superior to your mere 16-month Empy weapon, as it is a legendary weapon from the eldest of HNM's. Clearly, the endless butthurt of waiting 21-24 hours at a time to hope that Nidhogg didn't spawn instead, fighting to claim the beast amidst the hordes of darters and praying that it dropped and I got the lot was so grand an endeavor that I should wield it's constantly reinforced blade for eternity, besting all others.


What? That wouldn't be fair?

Your time spent is not an excuse to NOT make the process more efficient for those who came after.

Since no one is going to be happy either way, just make base RMEs buyable with ~200k plasm like current boss weapons.

People like me who spent months making a relic won't be upset because now i can just go and buy a conqueror to go along with it!

you know thats actually not a bad idea, with the declining server populations having the base forms of RME's buyable with 200k or more plasm isn't a bad idea at all, would still take a bit of time to gather the plasm but far more effective than /yelling for hours on end for a duo partner for dynamis or a group to go tackle assault missions for. You sir are pure genius. But at the same time i think all the extra work needed to take that RME to 99 should remain the same. Just getting the base lvl 75 weapons are hell to get with less people actively playing. Well i'd exempt empy weapons from this though as they're already easy as hell to get compared to the Relic and Mythic weapons.

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Originally Posted by Rustic

Because X weapon should not be "weapon that takes ages to catch up to endgame in a completely different area when everything else is plasm farming and bayld". Now, if they also did AF +3 the same way, making it a similar long-term goal in such areas? We're all equal then. Equally miserable, but equal. The heavier the burden of getting what's considered "required for endgame", the worse things will become. Look at it.

You mean sitting there and stabbing ADL repeatedly for vials of marrow easy? Again, I'm not talking rendering RME obsolete, I'm talking making RME's useful but not -required- for endgame.

Let those who had them, update them to make them useful again. Let those that didn't NOT have to go through the same song and dance to face top content.

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Let me ask you two things. First, regarding the type of player who can’t be bothered to make an RME for his raiding jobs. What’s this player doing now?

-Is he happily swinging around his Upukirex, Tsurumaru, or Oatixurs? If so, that player almost certainly has the means (money, connections, and supporting gear) to make and effectively wield an RME. In addition, that player probably has nothing to do right now outside of Delve and Skirmish and is very likely looking for side projects.
-Or is he getting by with Rigors or Uguisumaru? In this case, that player will be behind no matter what. Making relics or Delve weapons the best will have no impact on him, he's still using something vastly inferior to both.

Secondly, I’m not saying ADL is easy or hard, but on my server, there is a guy who is bazaaring marrows for 7m. Are you saying you can’t make 35m gil over time for a long term project?

My main point is that somebody who can get Delve weapons can make a relic. That same person can also make a Mythic (it's not as hard as you think it is). And that same person can *probably* make an Empyrean but will rightfully complain about the level 95 and 99 stages.

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Originally Posted by detlef

Let me ask you two things. First, regarding the type of player who can’t be bothered to make an RME for his raiding jobs. What’s this player doing now?

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He's me. Regularly help the LS with Abyssea mobs, since even Skirmish armor and weapons makes me a remarkably durable DD compared to the folks that are behind me. And patiently picking up COR gear for the point where there's a Delve call, at which point I'll be picking up one of those fancy new weapons. My Mandau days were pre-update, on another account.

I did plenty of time in Dynamis back when I was an RDM or COR main. 5 years ago. Why the heck should I go through 2008 content to play 2013-era areas? I'd rather spend a few million -buying- a Delve slot with a group than the time (itself worth money) and Gil on a bunch of marrows for a mythic. Or even simply gleefully getting my LS-mates up and running here in Adoulin so they can have a go at it themselves, if they so desire.

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-Is he happily swinging around his Upukirex, Tsurumaru, or Oatixurs? If so, that player almost certainly has the means (money, connections, and supporting gear) to make and effectively wield an RME. In addition, that player probably has nothing to do right now outside of Delve and Skirmish and is very likely looking for side projects.

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And if he wants to bottom feed instead, more power to him. Heck, I spent an afternoon helping one of the linkshell's RUN farm Ise hearts. And if they put upgrade quests in for RME's, I'll help with those too- but I do NOT want to see the same weapons be "best in class", expansion after expansion. When gear was more sidegrade than literal level-up, that was one thing. Now, having the capacity to actually do endgame be such an ardous, long road is counter to the whole process.

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My main point is that somebody who can get Delve weapons can make a relic. That same person can also make a Mythic (it's not as hard as you think it is). And that same person can *probably* make an Empyrean but will rightfully complain about the level 95 and 99 stages.

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Or they can simply get in on a Delve run for far less time and effort and play in endgame. And that's my point. While I don't feel that outright negating previous efforts is right, I also feel that shoving the entire history of endgame into a player's face and saying "YOU MUST DO EVERYTHING WE DID TO ADVANCE, OR WE SHALL SHUN THEE" is plain ol' wrong.

Can they do it? Sure. Should they HAVE to do it to keep up? F-no.

Are you completely current with Delve gear?

Throwing the RMEs out the window was the equivalent of throwing the meter out in favor of the furlong. It's stupid.

The RMEs served a purpose as a long term goal and a standard that all other gear was compared to. For a game thoroughly rooted in lateral progression for the better part of a decade, it served its purpose perfectly.

Now that the standard has been thrown out, gear has pretty much no meaning. All the gear you have now will be eclipsed in a few months and become 100% useless, as will be the gear that eclipses it. It's the equivalent of a rat running the wheel, there's no accomplishment or long term goal. It's the consequence of adding rapid vertical progression 11 years into the lifespan of a game whose whole existence and identity sprang from it focusing on lateral progression. If the players of FFXI wanted vertical progression they would have been playing playing games that have done it far better for years or they would play Diablo ladders.

So now we have no standard for gear, no stability, and a small dev team that can't support vertical progression by mere fact they're too slow in putting out new content to keep up with players demands. So now every three or for months we get a week's worth of new content. On top of that the pre-existing content that a majority of the players couldn't 100% complete in a span of years, is now virtually obsolete.

If this game dies it won't be because of FFXIV, the game is not built for the same audience and fatigues quickly (but that's another post), the blame for FFXI's condition falls squarely on Matsui's team's lack of intelligence. They clearly didn't see the simple fact that they can't maintain a glacial pace at best, let alone a pace that can support such rapid vertical progression.

They tried the "Let's make everything come from delve" approach. It didn't work. Diversity yo.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

They tried the "Let's make everything come from delve" approach. It didn't work. Diversity yo.

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Totally agreed. When the game was capped at 75 we had multiple end-game paths-granted thanks to some add-ons like ToAU adding mythics, CoP adding sea, etc. Because of that we had multiple gear paths we could take with large amounts of sidegrade items, i.e. you could use sky, relic, AF+1, etc., it was a gear swappers heaven because options abounded. But from the release of Abyssea onwards those choices have narrowed, and with SoA we were originally pigeon-holed into a single path to the delve stuff, to an extent that is still true, the skirmish stuff-augmented-is excellent, but the delve gear still generally out-classes it, although some jobs-like my bard-really don't see much benefit from anything except a bit more durability. SE needs to keep expanding the options for side-grade stuff; if nothing else it gives us some options that might create something viable for the jobs that really aren't seeing much from current end-game, and that can-done properly-keep all 22 jobs viable. It also keeps the game going for us to have multiple things to work on.

The one thing I DON'T want to see though is a bunch of exclusive paths needed to be followed to obtain end-game gear. Make it ALL purchaseable in some unified way, like letting us get plasm from more than one path, and open up the older content rewards, some are still "required" items even now (aegis, ochain, daurdaubla, etc.) With the general lack of interest in the content those are obtained from they are getting harder to get than when they were the goal items in game. Example, the heavy metal plates for my daurdaubla are rarely for sale, when you can find them they are 100k+ each, and noone is really interested in doing VW anymore, but considering the drop mechanics there you NEED a good-sized group. The same with most of the items along the path, to get multiple colorlous souls needs a proc that a soloer will have trouble hitting. And lets face it, when 12 people in your shell are after delve items but only you are after the harp, doing delve is going to win out as the choice of how to spend the shell's time, even though they do want you to have the harp.

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Originally Posted by Demon6324236

See here's the thing, with this player base you have 2 options, Make RMEs the best, people will make RMEs, or do not make RMEs the best, and no one bothers. If you make them slightly better, just barely better than everything else, you will have a few people do them but not that many, and at the same time, we all know that people will exclude others based on it, just like people do now with Oats, Senbaak, and so on. You cant make them not the best and expect anyone to ever make a RME again besides the special use ones like Apoc or Yagrush.

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There's a difference between best weapon being 1% ahead of 2nd best, or best weapon being 30% ahead of 2nd best.

Make REM 30% ahead of 2nd best option, the game would be REM only or don't play that job.

Make REM 1% ahead of 2nd best option, players using 2nd best weapon still perfectly capable of playing the job and do the content.

Making REM 1% ahead of 2nd best is the best way to keep everyone happy, those who likes REM has incentive to build one, and other players without REM can play the job too.

This game will NEVER become REM only if REM is 1% ahead of 2nd best. Not everyone want everything totally best of the best only to be 1% ahead, when you don't NEED to be 1% stronger to beat the content.

But if best weapon is 30% ahead, and dev balanced the content based on that fact, then that's how current game is, best weapon or don't come.

Now the game really isn't much better than REM only era, if you're new/returning player, you still can't make progress cuz you don't have a delve boss weapon, and you can't get one without a delve pt.

Ppl are over reacting about REM issues, it's ass easy to solve the problem if dev bother to try.

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Originally Posted by Stompa

Newsflash. When you spend 10 whole years of your life playing one videogame, it is no longer in the 'casual hobby' bracket it goes into the 'your life' bracket, since you might live for 60 years, you spent 1/6 of your life playing FFxi. So it is a major part of your life. If, like me, you spent almost a full year grinding WOE bosses for single coins/lims/dice for your NQ99 empy, and you were very happy with it (even though it was gimp compared to HQ empy and RMs of course, which I didn't mind at all coz I don't have the time or gil to farm those), only to be told your NQ99 empy that you spent a big piece of your life obtaining, is unable to hit or damage lolmobs in rieves, while a cheap pos bayld forefront weapon can damage them just fine, is an insult to me. Yes people are sentimental and attached to their weapons, if they spent years of their lives building it why should they not feel emotionally connected to the weap. That is not the problem, the problem is SoA arrived, and unlike all previous expansions, the new weapons completely dwarfed everything that preceded them, SoA it is not the normal FFxi progression at all.
And then another point, forefront weapons came out and were originally just slightly more powerful than a 99NQ empy (which was wrongheaded in itself), but then a few weeks later SE patched forefronts overnight, making them way more powerful with the skill+ bonuses etc. So if they can add DMG and skill+ to forefronts overnight as they did, why didn't they just do that to all RME's when SoA came out. Why make people run around missing rieve mobs with their empys, we could have had them patched from the SoA launch.

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REM is more than just "I spent 10 years grinding them, and I love it cuz it took so much time" sort of thing for me. I feel sad for those who can't understand it and have to insult others about it. For me it's an item with personality and background story, which makes this game more attractive overall. Without it FFXI is tasteless and I'd better spend my time/money on another video game title.

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Originally Posted by Demon6324236

Difficulty is how hard something is, I can kill level 75 and 95 mobs with my eyes closed, Tojil however will rip my ass apart in less than 30 seconds.

Time taking is simply how long something takes to complete, I can do a Tojil in 30 minutes, but a Relic would take me months to farm.

Very different things. If you want more difficult things to be stronger, then they need to make RMECs harder than Delve weapons, at the same time, if you want more time taking things to be stronger, then they should simply upgrade RMECs, yes. What you should really be saying is you want whatever takes the most investment to be best.

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Killing tojil is easier than finding enough ppl to do salvage/VW for empy/mythic. That makes empy/mythic harder to get than Oatixur. Difficulty is more than how hard the NM actually is, but how hard to accomplish them. Killing tojil is, well, just 100x easier than building a 99 empy or Mythic.