ATTN: Dev/Comm. Rep -Relic & Mythic Weapons Reborn {Yes, Please}- レリックとミシックの強化

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

EDIT2: Monks acc on Vampire guy was like 50% lol, go go 1 handed weapons.

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I cannot tell you how happy I am to read this. I have yet to do voidwatch, but I am extremely pleased that SE has added content that REQUIRES FREAKING ACCURACY AND FOOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! O M G I AM GOING TO JIZZ IN MY PANTS

It's mostly the vampire. Nothing else is particularly evasive. Maybe for one handers idk. I'm alwayson goon for voidwatch.

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Originally Posted by Insaniac

I don't know what to tell you man. T1-3 minus the Vamp are all really easy imo and I have seen them absolutely destroyed by Ukons once lights are capped. The only T4 that has any kind of evasion at all is the Harpy but because of the AoE melee attacks you can't even TP on it anyway. Your window of Bravura superiority is so small it's almost non-existent.

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It doesnt matter how small it is, the point is that its there, and with upcoming level increases, there's many chances for that window to expand since abyssea is over and acc is a relevant stat now, and since you don't have tons of free crit rate and crit damage and acc from atmas.

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

It doesnt matter how small it is, the point is that its there, and with upcoming level increases, there's many chances for that window to expand since abyssea is over and acc is a relevant stat now, and since you don't have tons of free crit rate and crit damage and acc from atmas.

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It kinda does matter how small it is. The few situations you are pointing out right now are gone as soon as they increase the cap and whatever they add at 95 will be gone as soon as the cap is 99. On top of that there's 10 more levels of atmacite enhancements and the probability that, like in abyssea, at 99 we will be able to equip 3 at a time. On top of that even if abyssea is over its far from being done. There's 3 remarkable pieces of gear from voidwatch atm that I can think of off the top of my head so people aren't gonna be leaving abyssea anytime soon seeing as 90% of the games useful content is there. Until Bravura is actually overall as useful as Ukon then they aren't balanced. I'm not saying that day will never come but for now the scales are heavily heavily tipped in favor of Ukon.

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

Lets say that AV is casting meteor on you, are you going to macro on your aegis, or stay in your ochain?

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I think you'll have to double check on bg wiki if meteor is instant cast.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

For clarifications sake, This has nothing to do with rather i agree or disagree with Wish's point of view, Frankly I was only interested in Bravura/Ukon parses. This is Only to point out you're being quite hypocritical.

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What is hypocrite is spaming a certain thread on BG laughing at other sites because they doubt maths demonstrations (supposedly) then coming on this site, argue on something, and be asking for a parse as proof. Melee DPS come from sequences of random (some independent / some not) numbers that can always be modelized either with a simulator or by an approximative mathematical demonstration - all of this being within limits of knowledge which currently essentially excludes pdif distribution betwen max and min ; it's common sense that a parse is a proof of nothing, so I will just say lol. Unfortunately I cannot provide precise proof of the opposite of what he is claiming because I only master MNK's dps dynamics. But at least for this job (and pup too), I can attest you that spharai is inferior to verethragna in any possible scenario if your criteria is pure damage over time. Abyssea has little to do with it because VS is a better WS on it's own, and vere has a spectacular aftermath effect, paired with a higher DPS and +15 str.

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Originally Posted by wishor12z

Ok so, gear: N legs+1 are 6 acc 3 crit rate. This is my general I have no idea how much dex a mob has, outside abyssea ukkos build.

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First you check againzt mob's AGI.

Second, If you had a grasp on how melee and ws damage work you would know that it is never worth increasing your dex for a weaponskill (with the aim to crit because if you use dex for acc you do it wrong), especially on a WS that is based on STR. I mean in the colibris era, a mob that had an AGI of a normal level 70 mob, even though being 80, noone could could build a decent setup without sacrificing either dex or attack or .. something. As a general rule if you manage to cap ddex, that's a 50 dex sacrifice for +15% critical hit rate (best scenario). If your base Ukko's crit rate is roughly 20% (with merits included), then 15% crit globally increases this to ~ 1.35/1.20= + 12.5% (and this assume you are in the pdif range where crit doubles dmg) damage. +12.5% is the same as roughly 40 attacks. It's equivalent to 56 STR for WSC damage but since 2Handed DD get a decent attack from STR that would be equivalent to 29 str. My guess is that wherever you can put 50 dex, you can put 29 STR.

Also it's not nice to see some people still think they don't need sushi or pizza when their accuracy blows. On most non sushi/pizza scenario, gear acc is better than STR or attack which mean RCB are never giving you the full benefit (100 attack better than pizza in this case). For situations where you are nearing 85% + hit rate pizza is the best always. Lastly, WAR being ... WAR, berserk says hi and laughs at your Red curry buns making them half as useful 75% of the time. Aggressor will not change much too this (aggressor up = pizza useless but berserk up = RCB useless, the ws frequency increase from pizza should make the difference) . An attack/str heavy build paired with pizza will obliterate acc+meat build. Plus, as pointed out, you would need to be fighting mobs with supernatural evasion like that THF hnm in dynamis xarc ; For those NMs you can seriously ask yourself why you are not on BLM a BLM. It's like manaburning Kirin and min maxing your elemental/INT balance when in reality you should be meleing it...

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

First you check againzt mob's AGI.

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Ok smart guy, why don't you tell me the AGL of every voidwatch mob right now.

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

Second, If you had a grasp on how melee and ws damage work you would know that it is never worth increasing your dex for a weaponskill (with the aim to crit because if you use dex for acc you do it wrong),

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It's situational, sometimes its good to add dex, sometimes it is not. And if you would look at the set, you would see I wasn't giving up anything for DEX, so lol@you.

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

more stuff no one cares about that is wrong or already been said

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I'm so tired of responding to you because you always get stuff wrong, and why are you telling me to use pizza if my acc is bad? I already said that, and I explained why I wasn't using food. Gimpchan, from now on, please read all my posts before you try and talk about them.

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Originally Posted by Insaniac

It kinda does matter how small it is. .

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It doesn't matter how small it is, the only thing that matters is that such situations exist. When I said this, I meant it doesn't matter because we're not 99 yet and we don't know what content is coming, which is also why it's not worth upgrading Bravura simply for voidwatch. I'm just tired of seeing people complain that all relics are trash compared to empyreans all the time for everything, when they are not. Even Ukon is not always the best thing to be using, and that's what I am illustrating. The best Empyrean weapon hands down, is sometimes beaten by its relic counterpart, and the situations where it is beaten are more likely to become common then not with the future updates and new mobs.

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

It doesn't matter how small it is, the only thing that matters is that such situations exist. When I said this, I meant it doesn't matter because we're not 99 yet and we don't know what content is coming, which is also why it's not worth upgrading Bravura simply for voidwatch. I'm just tired of seeing people complain that all relics are trash compared to empyreans all the time for everything, when they are not. Even Ukon is not always the best thing to be using, and that's what I am illustrating. The best Empyrean weapon hands down, is sometimes beaten by its relic counterpart, and the situations where it is beaten are more likely to become common then not with the future updates and new mobs.

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You come across as if you think relics don't need adjusting and you are basing it off something I and most others don't accept as entirely true. No, relics aren't terrible, but when you spend months or years or 100s of millions of gil on something you don't expect it to be trumped by something easier to obtain even if it's only by a little. As a whole Emps are simply better than the whole of relics and they will stay that way if relics don't get adjusted. Post abyssea world is not gonna change that. The gap may lessen but emps will still be an overall better set of weapons.

If you aren't implying that relics don't need adjustment then we can stop debating right now.

were there any changes to relics in the last update?

just did 3,8k dmg with mercy stroke + sneak attack on an easy prey Ziz in mamook.
that's far away from my regular 2,1-2,6k mercy strokes.

Just wanted to provide an update since it is the late afternoon and a translation has not yet come about.
On the jp thread which currently has 1070 replies and 250,000 views.

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Originally Posted by Mocchi

ちょっと補足です。

前回の投稿にどちらにも読み取れるために誤解を招いているくだりがあったことから、改めてお伝えします。

レリックやミシックについて、「D値や固有の性能を強化していくことに加え、別のプロパティを付加することができないかを検討しています。」とお知らせしましたが、これはレベルキャップが99になり、最終的な強化を行えるようになった際の検討事項のひとつです。

次回バージョンアップ（レベルキャップ95）の段階では、レリック、ミシックとエンピリアンの差を詰める調整を行います。
その後も様子を見ながら調整は随時行いますし、その一環として「プロパティの付加」があると捉えていただけると幸いです。

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From a friend who has helped me translate information as accurately as possible is as follows:
To supplement this a bit:

The previous posting invited some misunderstanding and we would like to address this.

Concerning relics and mythics, we said that their defining characteristics would be strongly modified and that perhaps additional properties may be added. However, these will be adjustments which will take place when the level cap is 99.

In the next version update, with the level cap being raised to level 95, we intend to pack in adjustments to relic, mythics, and empyreans.

After this, while looking at the condition of the changes, we would be happy for further changes to be made, one of them being the aforementioned addition of “properties”.

Just wanted to provide this to all who have been awaiting news on this closely instead of waiting until Monday ^^
Btw, its been three weeks since my last word that I will be addressing through the jp forums. Conclusion from both are its generally the same, basically what made the response happen was the large volume of inquires on the jp thread.

It's ok to have empyrean be the best as temporary weapon but IMO you need to give goals to players, and yes, long term goals, not something that requires killing 100 of the same HNM with brew because otherwise it's retarded, all this empyrean bullshit completely removed the fun from the game. What do you do after an empyrean ? You try to justify voidwatch because you are half convided that +3 magic accuracy on ring is maybe going to increase the landing rate in case sometimes in the near future something will be worth paralyzing ? Really ? At this point it would be more fun to give dies as reward so that you can change the color or the model of your gear. I don't have many hopes after voidwatch, I fear that it will go to trash like znms and MMM.

edit : incoming madness for having to grind 50-75 dynamis runs. This was expected as the dynamis revamp was imo well done and very accessible.

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Originally Posted by Insaniac

You come across as if you think relics don't need adjusting and you are basing it off something I and most others don't accept as entirely true. No, relics aren't terrible, but when you spend months or years or 100s of millions of gil on something you don't expect it to be trumped by something easier to obtain even if it's only by a little. As a whole Emps are simply better than the whole of relics and they will stay that way if relics don't get adjusted. Post abyssea world is not gonna change that. The gap may lessen but emps will still be an overall better set of weapons.

If you aren't implying that relics don't need adjustment then we can stop debating right now.

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Im saying relics dont need adjusted yet, because the lvl cap is not 99 yet, and people need to stfu about it and how all empyreans destroy relics, because they dont. Only 5 empyreans outparse their relic counterparts, and of those 5 empyreans 4 can be beaten by their relic/mythic counterparts under the right circustances, and the relics and empyreans offer things besides just doing damage, so it doesn't matter that they do less damage on WEAK mobs.

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

Im saying relics dont need adjusted yet, because the lvl cap is not 99 yet, and people need to stfu about it and how all empyreans destroy relics, because they dont. Only 5 empyreans outparse their relic counterparts, and of those 5 empyreans 4 can be beaten by their relic/mythic counterparts under the right circustances, and the relics and empyreans offer things besides just doing damage, so it doesn't matter that they do less damage on WEAK mobs.

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So are you going tell me how Ragnarok is better than Caladbolg?

I think the idea's completely on the wrong track here. We should be holding SE accountable to make relics and mythics on the same level of acquisition as empyreans. Letting them think we'll spend years to complete any one item at this point in the game is ridiculous and they need to hear it or we'll keep getting more notices from the devs saying "After further review of these weapons we still feel like we should get 3 years of your life in return for a mythic, I mean its only fair right?" When ls's are building empyreans for every melee char in their ls in a month. We have to spend 3 years to get our whm (since SE royally bent them over for relics and empyreans) a mythic weapon. SE the real issue here is your inability to gauge the time involved in the process for the other two weapons. I'm not saying make them so easy as you have empyrean weapons but at least make them reasonable. The balance issue isnt in effects its in acquisition.

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Originally Posted by Atomic_Skull

So are you going tell me how Ragnarok is better than Caladbolg?

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What's funny is that ragnarok IS IN FACT better than caladbolg hahaha

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Originally Posted by Bumbeen

What's funny is that ragnarok IS IN FACT better than caladbolg hahaha

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I was just gonna say: "Who cares, use Apoc for DRK relic." But your way is funny too.

EDIT: After looking up torcleaver and scourge, and calabolg and ragnarok. I'd say Ragnarok is almost definately better all the time, it kinda depends on just how much the critical hit rate increase is at 90, but Im sure the 'Increase rate of critical hits IV' combined with the ODD is enough to make it melee better, it was +15% crit rate at lvl 1 afterall. If someone can tell me what it is at lvl 4 that would be helpful. The WS's are 2 40% mods with 3ftp and +25% damage compared to 60% and 4.75, and both are poopy modifiers for WSC, so Id be willing to bet they come within 5% damage of each other under similar circumstances but that scourge pulls ahead.

EDIT2: Felt like I should explain the WS thing.
(40+40)*3*1.25=300
60*4.75=285
So basically, if you had the same amount of STR/Base damage/WSC/Attack for each WS, Scourge would pull ahead by a bit.

EDIT3: Might as well talk about ODD and base damage too. Ragnarok has only slightly better base damage, so we'll ignore it. If you assume youre using the same amount of attack/haste and have the same base damage with each weapon, (which you basically will, 90 rag is 1? base damage higher) then they do the same amount of damage per hit, so it comes down to the aftermath and ODD procs and how much attack you have compared to mob defense and your acc.

ODD is just 2x damage
Adding a critical hit is an increase of about 1.5x to 2x, depending on your attack compared to mob def. All a crit does is add 1 to pdif.

So if we count from the low end, and crits only give 1.5 extra damage, then you need 3 of them for every 2 ODDs on Cala to stay even. 30% ODD is what Cala will have (WS at 100 tp) Rag has 10% ODD naturally, so it need to make up enough in crit hits to account for the other 20% cala is gaining.

At 3 to 2 that means Rag would need to get a 30% crit rate increase to stay on par meleeing against Cala. Tier 1 crit rate aftermath is 15%, if its 5% per lvl, which doesnt seem to far fetched to me, then its there. So if someone can tell us what Cala aftermath at lvl 90 is, we'd know if it comes out ahead just meleeing when you have capped attack.

If you have low attack, and crits double damage, then Rag only needs 20% Crit rate to break even with Cala. Which is an increase of only 1.3% per tier, which just kinda looks to low to me, and I'd bet its higher then that. So it's a safe bet Rag is always better when attack is low.

And well, it seems fairly obvious that if your acc is not capped, Rag is definitely the superior option since it can add as much as 17% hit rate. And I dunno about your DRK, but mine doesn't have much if any ACC gear for TPing.

EDIT4: Ragnarok ODD is actually 2.5x damage, not 2x like empyrean aftermath, so crit rate can actually be a bit lower then I said perviously. And it can fire on WS's unlike empyrean ODD.

So with capped attack youre looking at needing a 27%~ crit rate increase, and at low attack needing a 17%~ crit rate increase for Ragnarok to win. And again, even a 30% increase seems plausible to me, since if I had to guess, I would guess that each increase is somewhere around 5%.

So, who can tell me Ragnaroks crit rate increase at level 90?

Edit5: Didn't really answer you.

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Originally Posted by Atomic_Skull

So are you going tell me how Ragnarok is better than Caladbolg?

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All that needs to happen for ragnarok to be better is to gain 17.5% damage from the acc/crit rate increase it offers. and we know 2 acc = 1% hit rate, or 1% damage, however you want to look at it, and 90 Rag has 35 acc. We also know that at tier 1 of crit rate increase from aftermath you gain 15% crit rate, so it's not hard to imagine when it would pull ahead.
Does that explain it or should I be even more specific?

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So if we count from the low end, and crits only give 1.5 extra damage, then you need 3 of them for every 2 ODDs on Cala to stay even. 30% ODD is what Cala will have (WS at 100 tp) Rag has 10% ODD naturally, so it need to make up enough in crit hits to account for the other 20% cala is gaining.

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ODD on relics is 5% not 10%. I don't know where you got that but it's wrong.

Just as a test I went out with the Ragnaroc DRK as in our LS (both DRK/WAR) and his Scourge was consistently lower than Torcleaver. We both have similar gear. So either your math is wrong, or there's some other modifier on Torcleaver.,

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Originally Posted by Atomic_Skull

Except it's not.

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Did you not read my post directly above yours? It actually is.

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

Did you not read my post directly above yours? It actually is.

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No, it's really not, I went out and compared it yesterday. Torcleaver consistently out damaged Scourge on a similarly geared DRK/WAR by a significant margin (and we both made sure zerk and last resort were up when we used WS)

I'm beginning to wonder if the emp WS might have a cRatio bonus like Spinning Slash, YGK etc. because their damage seems unnaturally high given the modifiers they have. Torcleaver really shouldn't be doing 2k-3k averaging around 2500 on IT mobs outside abyssea even with zerk and last resort and yet it does.

Are you eyeballing?

Seems like you are just comparing the WSs to each other and not the weapons themselves.

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Originally Posted by Atomic_Skull

No, it's really not, I went out and compared it yesterday. Torcleaver consistently out damaged Scourge on a similarly geared DRK/WAR by a significant margin (and we both made sure zerk and last resort were up when we used WS)

I'm beginning to wonder if the emp WS might have a cRatio bonus like Spinning Slash, YGK etc. because their damage seems unnaturally high given the modifiers they have. Torcleaver really shouldn't be doing 2k-3k averaging around 2500 on IT mobs outside abyssea even with zerk and last resort and yet it does.

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I cant take any of this seriously since you're hiding on a mule. Sorry, but provide some proof or just go away, I already showed using the math scourge is better.

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

EDIT2: Felt like I should explain the WS thing.
(40+40)*3*1.25=300
60*4.75=285
So basically, if you had the same amount of STR/Base damage/WSC/Attack for each WS, Scourge would pull ahead by a bit.

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wat. Did you just assume that you WS with an amount of CHR and MND both equal to the other's amount of STR. seriously is it the first time you calculate a WS damage ? I don't have time now but you are overly exagerating what 15% critical hit rate is giving to you. It's at best 10% damage most likely globally while the ODD from mythic will vastly overcome this. In the end empy is better for TP and WS so you are wrong.

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

I already showed using the math scourge is better.

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I believe an actual comparison of the two WS's damage before theorycrafting.

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

wat. Did you just assume that you WS with an amount of CHR and MND both equal to the other's amount of STR. seriously is it the first time you calculate a WS damage ?

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Assuming you have the same amount of STR and WS modifiers and attack Scourge pulls ahead. I fail to see how this is inherently wrong, perhaps you could explain it.

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

wat. Did you just assume that you WS with an amount of CHR and MND both equal to the other's amount of STR. seriously is it the first time you calculate a WS damage ?

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He also forgot that STR and VIT come paired on a lot of items. Like say Ares body, Jinjang feet, spiral ring.

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Originally Posted by Atomic_Skull

I believe an actual comparison of the two WS's damage before theorycrafting.

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Hi, Im anon and hiding so you dunno who I am, but please believe me when I say my friend and I went out and did very good testing and it was all accurate and exact and torcleaver is better because I said so and have absolutely no evidence and I did not tell you what we did or what kind of gear we were using or what we were fighting or anything else, just believe it because I said so, after all, this testimony is better then what the wiki says the calculations for the ws's damage are and your crummy math cause math is astupid and 4+4=12 not 8, thanks.

This is my impersonation of you right now.

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Originally Posted by Atomic_Skull

He also forgot that STR and VIT come paired on a lot of items. Like say Ares body, Jinjang feet, spiral ring.

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Twlight mail and drk af3+2 shoes add more then the stuff you listed.
EDIT: Oh, guess I should look for a ring too.

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

Assuming you have the same amount of STR and WS modifiers and attack Scourge pulls ahead. I fail to see how this is inherently wrong, perhaps you could explain it.

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Except that you won't because items with large amounts of STR MND CHR and ATT in the same slot that can be worn by DRK are very rare. Off the top of my head I can only think of the twilight mail and helm and the Bale feet+2, and if you have Caladbolg you're going to be using Ares Body because +24 ATT > -3 STR and -3 VIT.

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

Assuming you have the same amount of STR and WS modifiers and attack Scourge pulls ahead. I fail to see how this is inherently wrong, perhaps you could explain it.

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You assumed that if, for instance you WS with 150 VIT on empy, the guy with other weapon would ws with 150 mnd and 150 chr which is horribly wrong. Secondly you are completely ignoring the fstr effect, since with a rnk 13 weapon, you get 21 fstr which you are never going to get with the relic. Lastly you ignore the benefits of the attack from the empy. If the relic is done with 100 str and the empy with 150 str you are looking at 37.5 attack difference which is nearly 10% damage already. I bet with cadalblog you can even get more str than this with attack being paired to str on various gear etc.



In the end a serious ws setup on empy would be 150 STR 150 vit, and GL getting even 150 mnd & CHR on relic. Even if you manage that, the empy has a natural 15 vit on the weapon itself which is 9 WSC, plus the ability to stack 21 fstr as well as the natural attack that comes with it...

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Originally Posted by Atomic_Skull

Except that you won't because items with large amounts of STR MND CHR and ATT in the same slot that can be worn by DRK are very rare. Off the top of my head I can only think of the twilight mail and helm and the Bale feet+2, and if you have Caladbolg you're going to be using Ares Body because +24 ATT > -3 STR and -3 VIT

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So what youre saying is you dunno what gear to use for torcleaver and Im suppose to believe you accurately tested both of these WSs with your mysterious friend who you cant even prove exists and has ragnarok?

PROTIP: 1 att and 3% triple attack is better then 1 str and 1 vit.
Even 2% TA with -2 str/vit would be better if you used NQ shadow breastplate over ares body, and both of these are assuming the only good augment you get is the max TA which requires a HQ2/3 augment which basically guarantees 2 other augments which can be things like 6 of any stat or 8 att.

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

You assumed that if, for instance you WS with 150 VIT on empy, the guy with other weapon would ws with 150 mnd and 150 chr which is horribly wrong. Secondly you are completely ignoring the fstr effect, since with a rnk 13 weapon, you get 21 fstr which you are never going to get with the relic. Lastly you ignore the benefits of the attack from the empy. If the relic is done with 100 str and the empy with 150 str you are looking at 37.5 attack differene which is nearly 10% damage already.

In the end a serious ws setup on empy would be 150 STR 150 vit, and GL getting even 150 mnd & CHR on relic. Even if you manage that, the empy has a natural 15 vit on the weapon itself which is 9 WSC, plus the ability to stack 21 fstr as well as the natural attack that comes with it...

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Ok do this, build actual WS sets and do the math, we'll see what comes out ahead.
I was simply pointing out that if everything is even, torcleaver does not come out ahead, if you want to argue against that at least provide what sets of gear you're using for your comparison.

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I was simply pointing out that if everything is even, torcleaver does not come out ahead

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But it will never be even unless you specifically adjust your gear sets for some inexplicable reason because you want Torcleaver to do less damage.


Torcleaver is Damage varies with TP, Scourge isn't. You're never going to WS at exactly 100% TP with Torcleaver, especially not with 50% haste 77% of the time. In addition, Torcleaver gains a damage bonus from a Moonshade Earring with TP Bonus+25, Scourge does not.

Also, Caladbolg comes with +15 VIT built in.

And, if it's true that the emp WS have a cRatio bonus then that puts them further ahead.

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Originally Posted by Atomic_Skull

Torcleaver is Damage varies with TP, Scourge isn't. You're never going to WS at exactly 100% TP with Torcleaver, especially not with 50% haste 77% of the time. In addition, Torcleaver gains a damage bonus from a Moonshade Earring with TP Bonus+25, Scourge does not.

Also, Caladbolg comes with +15 VIT built in.

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Because you're not suppose to get regain on moonshade cause thats gimp! Actually I cant say that, Im not sure whats required to 6 hit either weapon, cause I never looked into it, but I imagine tp bonus is not the appropriate thing to get even if your only job is DRK.

And Ragnarok comes with 35 acc built in! Better hope you never have to fight anything evasive like those pesky voidwatch mobs, or you're gonna wish you had the ac.

Show me the sets you were using for both WS's and lots of SS's or parses when you reply again, thanks.

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

And Ragnarok comes with 35 acc built in! Better hope you never have to fight anything evasive like those pesky voidwatch mobs, or you're gonna wish you had the ac.

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the Vampyre is evasive because it's a THF, the other ones aren't really. And no I'm not going to identify myself by posting what gear I have on top of what people already know. I don't care if you don't like it.

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Originally Posted by Atomic_Skull

the Vampyre is evasive because it's a THF, the other ones aren't really. And no I'm not going to identify myself by posting what gear I have on top of what people already know. I don't care if you don't like it.

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So basically, you've proven you don't know what to use for WS gear, and you refuse to give any concrete info about........ anything at all, we're all just suppose to believe you that torcleaver is better?

That is so stupid I don't even know how to respond to you anymore.

Yeah, sorry, why believe someone who hides and cant even take screen shots of their gear they are using and proof of said damage, not like you cant edit your name out

Theoretical gear sets would be ideal anyways, as there are no limitations based on what someone has or doesn't have. It does not encroach on one's privacy to build a gear set in FFXIAH and then just copy/paste the names of the armor/weapon into text form. If FFXIgear still existed, that would work too.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

It does not encroach on one's privacy to build a gear set in FFXIAH and then just copy/paste the names of the armor/weapon into text form.

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But the point is that they cannot do that, because torcleaver barely has a better WS set then scourge, and their whole arguement is that torcleaver has way better gear. The basic differance is torcleaver uses valk breastplate with 3% TA, jingjang boots, and maybe jingjang pants, while scourge uses twilight mail, and af3+2 pants/boots. Other then that I imagine the rest of the gear is the same.
twilight hat, ele gorget/belt, drk earring, brutal earring, statx7 ring, atheling mantle, those 13 str gloves, bomb core, pole grip, right?
Anyway, with those gear sets the differance between WS's will be about nothing, and I'd bet those are really really close to optimal, if not optimal. As I said I don't have these weapons so I never looked into it at all. Also you need to account for the fact that Ragnarok does have higher base damage, and that ODD from relics can proc during WS, so if anything, scourge should win.

Wish is clearly trolling all of you, and in any case SE has already stated that relics and mythics are broken so why even argue?

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Originally Posted by Zeroth

Wish is clearly trolling all of you, and in any case SE has already stated that relics and mythics are broken so why even argue?

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When did providing math to back up what you say become trolling?

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

ODD from relics can proc during WS

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ODD cannot proc during WS on relics, this was proven years ago. Now we know you don't know what you are talking about.