Do Relic, Mythic, and Empyrean staves lack utility?

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Originally Posted by TybudX

I'd rather have a WHM who can Haste everybody and keep them alive, but hey, you showed up on melee SMN. Doesn't mean it's a good idea.

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At 75 my SMN could easily replace a WHM on anything that didn't specifally require something from WHM, like Stona. Nowadays nobody would invite a SMN to main heal, the invites I get are for DD/buffs/support which I can provide all 3 decently a any given time

? What?

If you're going to make a serious melee party, you're going to bring a BRD/WHM. If you have a BRD/WHM, Hastega isn't an issue. If Hastega isn't an issue and you're using Predator claws, you don't contribute any buffs at all. Even if you're pulling out Ifrit and giving Double Attack or something (but giving up Predator Claws), your buffs are totally negligible compared to the advantages WAR has over you that I totally negated in my comparison. (Double Attack, Berserk, Blood Rage, Crit damage trait, base stats, weapon skill, gear). Heck, Blood Rage and Warcry probably make Warrior a better buffer than you in a melee party.

Also, the argument isn't "Oh man, I have a Summoner in the melee party getting melee buffs. Should he melee or not?"
The argument is, "I'm making a melee party, should I bring a Summoner?"

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Originally Posted by Dallas

For you, that's only 100 out of 400. You've already chosen to remove 75% of SMN.

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No you've replaced 75% of SMN with melee. We aren't a DD class, as a DD we're very replacable but as a support class we hold our own nicely

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Originally Posted by Byrth

? What?

If you're going to make a serious melee party, you're going to bring a BRD/WHM. If you have a BRD/WHM, Hastega isn't an issue. If Hastega isn't an issue and you're using Predator claws, you don't contribute any buffs at all. Even if you're pulling out Ifrit and giving Double Attack or something (but giving up Predator Claws), your buffs are totally negligible compared to the advantages WAR has over you that I totally negated in my comparison. (Double Attack, Berserk, Blood Rage, Crit damage trait, base stats, weapon skill, gear). Heck, Blood Rage and Warcry probably make Warrior a better buffer than you in a melee party.

Also, the argument isn't "Oh man, I have a Summoner in the melee party getting melee buffs. Should he melee or not?"
The argument is, "I'm making a melee party, should I bring a Summoner?"

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I've been in melee parties and easily validated my place there with my mix of buffs, DD and support

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Originally Posted by TybudX

In which case, replace all melee SMN with real DDs. Problem solved.

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If you're an elitist jerk, yes. Otherwise, nobody cares.

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Originally Posted by Razushu

I've been in melee parties and easily validated my place there with my mix of buffs, DD and support

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Well, realistically if your party didn't have a Bard, you would have been better off as a Bard. I wasn't replying to your post directly above it though. I just post slow, haha.

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Originally Posted by Byrth

Well, realistically if your party didn't have a Bard, you would have been better off as a Bard. I wasn't replying to your post directly above it though. I just post slow, haha.

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lol I think thats twice you've caught me like that. I'm not saying the buffs I give are as good as a BRDs but they're still useful and I can put more than 2 on a player at once and I add damage to the mix. This the people I play with seem to find a reasonable trade off

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Originally Posted by Byrth

If you're going to make a serious melee party

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... which no one does anymore.

The party setup is currently: MNK, WHM, WAR (naked for procs), BLM (naked for procs), THF, ???

No buffs. That multitasking SMN looks pretty effin' good. Maybe we can get GG to throw some unbuffed epeen numbers. Probably not, we want Ukon!

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Originally Posted by Al

If you're an elitist jerk, yes. Otherwise, nobody cares.

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If you want the slot, you need to be worth it. BRD, WHM, COR, are all better doing party buffs than SMN. It's been said many times, the only thing SMN excels at right now is EA, PD, and mobs that you can't put melee DDs on. If your only goal is to show up, good on you. That doesn't make it worthwhile.

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Originally Posted by TybudX

If you want the slot, you need to be worth it. BRD, WHM, COR, are all better doing party buffs than SMN. It's been said many times, the only thing SMN excels at right now is EA, PD, and mobs that you can't put melee DDs on. If your only goal is to show up, good on you. That doesn't make it worthwhile.

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our Buffs aren't as strong as a BRDs but we can apply more than them. Never really partied with a Cor but from what I've read I'd confidently state we'd hold our own seeing as they can either DD/Buff or Buff/Support(please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong as I'm only going on what I've heard/been told), where as we can perform all 3. WHM is gonna be there to main heal anyway so we're not competing with them for slots, but if we were(as a support not main heal) they bring barelements, strong pro/shell, less efficent haste more regen +10 sublte blow. SMN brings most of the bars(admittedly from /whm), more efficent haste, lower tier pro/shell and regen but a wider range of buffs.

COR can do melee/melee and mage/mage rolls if they dont suck. The buffs cor gives are also>anything smn can give, just giving you insight!

How many of SMN's BP: Wards are actually useful, though? Keep in mind, WHM can Stoneskinga too. Hastega is only more MP efficient for the mage itself. It has no effect on the party, as both mages can keep Haste on everyone either way. As long as WHM isn't running out of MP, and everyone has Haste fulltime, the MP efficiency of Hastega means effectively nothing.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

How many of SMN's BP: Wards are actually useful, though? Keep in mind, WHM can Stoneskinga too. Hastega is only more MP efficient for the mage itself. It has no effect on the party, as both mages can keep Haste on everyone either way. As long as WHM isn't running out of MP, and everyone has Haste fulltime, the MP efficiency of Hastega means effectively nothing.

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Barring Hastega, the useful wards are:

Dream Shroud
Spring Water
Whispering Wind
Tidal Roar
Earthen Armor
Diamond Storm
Healing Ruby II

Situational:
Sleepga
Fleet Wind

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

How many of SMN's BP: Wards are actually useful, though? Keep in mind, WHM can Stoneskinga too. Hastega is only more MP efficient for the mage itself. It has no effect on the party, as both mages can keep Haste on everyone either way. As long as WHM isn't running out of MP, and everyone has Haste fulltime, the MP efficiency of Hastega means effectively nothing.

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Well, Evasive Down, Evasive/Accuracy Down, Phalanx (I know, it sucks, but still), MAB/MDB, and Earthen Armor are all good buffs.

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our Buffs aren't as strong as a BRDs but we can apply more than them. Never really partied with a Cor but from what I've read I'd confidently state we'd hold our own seeing as they can either DD/Buff or Buff/Support(please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong as I'm only going on what I've heard/been told), where as we can perform all 3.

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COR buffs are about on par with a BRD, and that's just rolls. They can reset JAs every 15 minutes (any fight you would even need a full party for). They have QD, which is zero TP to mob as well as augmenting elemental damage of the same type by 20% for 15 seconds. Even before af3 feet COR's were monsters at certain HNM (hint: the sameone's you would want a SMN on) because QD damage is that good. They also have decent ranged damage if they need to stay out of melee, an Empyrean that doesn't suck, and a WS that is pretty good even outside Abyssea. That's not even counting what support job they come on yet. Yes, I would pick a COR over a SMN as long as I don't need EA or PD. I would rather have strong buffs and good damage instead of ok buffs and poor damage.

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Originally Posted by Aurara

COR can do melee/melee and mage/mage rolls if they dont suck. The buffs cor gives are also>anything smn can give, just giving you insight!

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Thought so It's kinda like BRD with a cooler hat, but SMN still holds it's own when you add the extra DD+support or I'd not be accepted time and again to perform this role(just my opinion based on personal experience)

In all fairness, if we're talking about pickup groups, most will accept anything with a pulse so that's not saying much for anyone.

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Originally Posted by Sparthos

Barring Hastega, the useful wards are:

Dream Shroud
Spring Water
Whispering Wind
Tidal Roar
Earthen Armor
Diamond Storm
Healing Ruby II

Situational:
Sleepga
Fleet Wind

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Don't forget Inferno howl

and situationally

Ecliptic growl/howl

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Originally Posted by TybudX

COR buffs are about on par with a BRD, and that's just rolls. They can reset JAs every 15 minutes (any fight you would even need a full party for). They have QD, which is zero TP to mob as well as augmenting elemental damage of the same type by 20% for 15 seconds. Even before af3 feet COR's were monsters at certain HNM (hint: the sameone's you would want a SMN on) because QD damage is that good. They also have decent ranged damage if they need to stay out of melee, an Empyrean that doesn't suck, and a WS that is pretty good even outside Abyssea. That's not even counting what support job they come on yet. Yes, I would pick a COR over a SMN as long as I don't need EA or PD. I would rather have strong buffs and good damage instead of ok buffs and poor damage.

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I wouldn't call my Damage poor outside abyssea even or my buffs just ok, I'm not trying to say I'm better than BRD or COR just that this is the role I get called on to play as SMN and I perform well enough that no one has ever kicked me or said I should level BRD or COR.

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Originally Posted by Sparthos

Barring Hastega, the useful wards are:

Dream Shroud
Spring Water
Whispering Wind
Tidal Roar
Earthen Armor
Diamond Storm
Healing Ruby II

Situational:
Sleepga
Fleet Wind

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Ifrit's enfire belongs on there.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

In all fairness, if we're talking about pickup groups, most will accept anything with a pulse so that's not saying much for anyone.

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And those are the ones I won't go anywhere with lol.

@Al It really doesn't.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Ifrit's enfire belongs on there.

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Beat ya to it buddy must be all the caffiene stampeding through my veins atm, sorry.

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Originally Posted by Aurara

@Al It really doesn't.

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+35~ damage per strike to every melee in the party isn't worth it? really?

I don't see how that could be not worth it, honestly. You don't always need half the things on that list (e.g. healing ruby) and you could easily keep enfire up with other buffs.

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Originally Posted by Raz

Thought so It's kinda like BRD with a cooler hat, but SMN still holds it's own when you add the extra DD+support or I'd not be accepted time and again to perform this role(just my opinion based on personal experience)

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If SMNs can beat BLMs going full out at Taimat, if SMNs can beat Annihilator RNGs going full out at DI, then yeah, it's kind of like a BRD with a cooler hat. Except COR was designed with DDing mind. It has real DD gear and real DD WSs. It's better dps than a SMN, with stronger, more relevant buffs, and that's not even considering that you can /rdm or /whm and do the support role just as well as a SMN, or /war and be even more damage.

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Originally Posted by Razushu

+35~ damage per strike to every melee in the party isn't worth it? really?

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I really don't know a ton about smn, but with a dnc i think that haste samba>35 dmg per hit :x

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Originally Posted by TybudX

If SMNs can beat BLMs going full out at Taimat, if SMNs can beat Annihilator RNGs going full out at DI, then yeah, it's kind of like a BRD with a cooler hat. Except COR was designed with DDing mind. It has real DD gear and real DD WSs. It's better dps than a SMN, with stronger, more relevant buffs, and that's not even considering that you can /rdm or /whm and do the support role just as well as a SMN, or /war and be even more damage.

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yes but can they keep DD up while supporting the party AND buffing it at the same time. I'm jsut saying they can perform either 2 roles at a time better than SMN but SMN can do all 3 at the same time the Differnce in party effiency is probably low enough that while COR is the preferred job my SMN has no trouble being invited to do the same thing.

-EDIT- for the record my hastega > Blitzer's roll

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Originally Posted by Aurara

I really don't know a ton about smn, but with a dnc i think that haste samba>35 dmg per hit :x

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what about 15% haste and +35~ damage?

Well Blitzer's roll is crap anyways, and i'm fairly certain enspells and haste samba dont stack :x

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Originally Posted by Aurara

Well Blitzer's roll is crap anyways, and i'm fairly certain enspells and haste samba dont stack :x

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Well if i was in a party with a DNC I'd drop inferno howl for something else to max out the haste we were giving the party

The reason I left off Crimson Roar is because firstly Ifrit kinda sucks and isn't even worth calling out for some enfire that can easily wind up being resisted on harder mobs and secondly because idk if its just how I set parties up but usually my SMN isn't with my DD but moreso with my tanks or in a party of mages over a group of DD.

Just me, I can see where enfire can be effective, even if those situations are slim.

In Voidwatch (where SMN becomes a relevant and effective job again), the PLD will be using enlight and you don't want many DD around so the en-fire becomes irrelevant as ranged damage or disposable pets are more effective for damage than melee damage.

Really, SMN is plagued from some of the same issues other pet classes have - SE doesn't want the pet to be more powerful than the purists (BRD, COR) so we have a situation where the wards are ho-hum buffs/debuffs but nothing overly amazing.

Also, maybe it's just me but fielding a DNC outside Abyssea in the direction XI is going w/Voidwatch is currently "eh..." to me. The whole !! system is designed to be anti-zerg, anti-DD hastefest which leads to a sharp desirability in what Dancer brings to the table.

The job already has a niche as being a top tier soloer and excellent support when you can simply rush the field with DD tanks and a mage or two but at what looks to be "new" endgame, the job falls flat on its face. Personal experience may vary however.

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Originally Posted by Raz

-EDIT- for the record my hastega > Blitzer's roll

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Blitzer's roll is trash. It wrecks Xhits for 2 handers, and it's useless for DWs in a party with DNC, BRD, Haste.

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Originally Posted by Raz

yes but can they keep DD up while supporting the party AND buffing it at the same time.

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Phantom Roll
Job Ability

Grants a beneficial effect to party members within area of effect.
Obtained: Corsair Level 5
Recast Time: 1 Minute
Duration: 5 minutes.

So 5:30 seconds with af3 hands, and it takes all of 5 seconds to put up. Sometimes it takes longer due to SE/Bust/Fold, sometimes less due to Lucky Number, but about 5 seconds average to get positioned, roll/re-roll, get back to where you were.

Well, at 75 i would only do DD rolls cause mages never really had MP issues then!

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Originally Posted by Sparthos

The reason I left off Crimson Roar is because firstly Ifrit kinda sucks and isn't even worth calling out for some enfire that can easily wind up being resisted on harder mobs and secondly because idk if its just how I set parties up but usually my SMN isn't with my DD but moreso with my tanks or in a party of mages over a group of DD.

Just me, I can see where enfire can be effective, even if those situations are slim.

In Voidwatch (where SMN becomes a relevant and effective job again), the PLD will be using enlight and you don't want many DD around so the en-fire becomes irrelevant as ranged damage or disposable pets are more effective for damage than melee damage.

Really, SMN is plagued from some of the same issues other pet classes have - SE doesn't want the pet to be more powerful than the purists (BRD, COR) so we have a situation where the wards are ho-hum buffs/debuffs but nothing overly amazing.

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Usually I wind up with DDs but if I was in a mage or tank party I'd just change up the buffs I give

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Originally Posted by TybudX

Phantom Roll
Job Ability

Grants a beneficial effect to party members within area of effect.
Obtained: Corsair Level 5
Recast Time: 1 Minute
Duration: 5 minutes.

So 5:30 seconds with af3 hands, and it takes all of 5 seconds to put up. Sometimes it takes longer due to SE/Bust/Fold, sometimes less due to Lucky Number, but about 5 seconds average to get positioned, roll/re-roll, get back to where you were.

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the same applies to my BPs except I don't hurt my damage to equip a support role subjob and can DD/Buff/support all at once.

Support role subjob? COR is a DD, /whm is crap(bar some situations) /rdm is limited too.

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Originally Posted by Aurara

Support role subjob? COR is a DD, /whm is crap(bar some situations) /rdm is limited too.

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So it can't perform all 3 roles that SMN can at once, my point that SMN brings a versatility to the party that other jobs can't and as such the party won't suffer too much if at all from our weaker buffs

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Originally Posted by Razushu

I wouldn't call my Damage poor.

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You called my damage poor and you do 1/4th my damage. What word means "sucks significantly more than poor?"

What? COR can do all 3 jobs at once and still be better than smn :x
Edit: What i mean is wildfire, give melee rolls, give mages rolls, and lose no dmg cause wildfire is sick.