Why?Quote:
I wish they would change it for SCH, making so a SCH main can accession Haste, whereas /SCH still cannot.
/smn should give hastega by 99, we should all be able to accession haste.
Thoughts on the FFXI Job Adjustment Manifesto
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10-08-2011, 11:57 AMAnk
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10-08-2011, 01:30 PMSasaraixxYes, they did in a previous post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ank
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10-08-2011, 02:38 PMAnk
It's already been confirmed on test anyways.
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10-08-2011, 06:57 PMSasaraixxThat doesn't change anything about the validity of your previous statement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ank
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10-08-2011, 08:10 PMSiiriSeriously haste cycles are just needless busy work, why limit it to anyone? That is really stupid. White mage main would already be limited if haste was accessionable because we only have 2 charges. One less for penury Curagas/Cure V, etc or accession stoneskin. Scholar gets almost unlimited charges comparatively speaking.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ank
As for scholar, I hope they are done buffing it. It was obnoxious before, now even random people who don't browse forums are going wth is up with SE and sch???? Other jobs need attention too. -
10-08-2011, 09:26 PMSasaraixxThey are not done buffing the job. If you ever played it or had any idea concept of how badly it needs work you would understand that. And the notes mention more adjustments are coming.Quote:
Originally Posted by Siiri
That is not to say that other jobs don't need work (SMN, DRK, RDM BST, PUP, etc - note WHM is not one of them), but you can rest assured that SCH and THF are going to continue to be jobs that receive attention for the near future. Why? Because while other jobs need work, you'll be hard pressed to find jobs that need *more* attention. The dev team will eventually make it to everyone. Have some patience.
And SCH does not get unlimited charges, regardless of which job you are comparing it to. I am not saying that I think Haste(ga) should be SCH main only, but asking why only one job should be able to to make certain spells AOE and not others is a bit ironic coming from a WHM (see WHM vs RDM pre-Accession). Given that these stratagems are part of what makes SCH unique, I AM for SCH main being able to accession spells not available to other jobs.
I do not, however, think that Haste should be one of them. I don't think it should be possible for any job. Hastega is one of the few pacts SMN has that is unique. The other mage jobs are already able to cover Haste cycles just fine. Also, given the nature of the spell, you would be able to AOE it on alliance and outside parties as well. That is a lot better than what SMN can do. -
10-08-2011, 09:46 PMbrayen
Regen while seems nice, it seems to lack the potency it would require in any half serious situation where you are healing. the duration is nice and all but just that potency seems to fall short when most mobs will hit for at least 300 usually on a single swing, with the exception of maybe pld but if you are using a pld the mob is probably already doing a lot more then 300.
The helix changes seem meh as well, while the mp reduction and duration seem like a nice plus again the potency remains lackluster at current level cap. mixed in with the fact that helix spells are now open to all jobs you are left with a job that has only 1 proc for the current endgame of Void watch, that being Modus Veritas... which brings me to the next change.
Yet again the reduction in recast to this job ability is nice, the fact remains it does not land on ANYTHING worth mentioning which renders it unusable in the most literal of senses. If that issue could be addressed at the very least i could see helix spells being useful as stacking it with said job ability is frankly the only saving grace that has yet to arrive.
The changes to sch 2hr is a nice addition to the already strong additions recently made to sch 2hr.
Lastly the change to klimaform. Now this is the most positive and the single area where i say thank you. While i understand it will be available to all jobs as it is available as a sub job, the duration finally justifies casting it midbattle now.
So to sum it up, while it is a positive update overall, we have to keep in mind it is an overall positive for other jobs as well, as half od this stuff will be avaiable to other jobs (helix and klimaform)
Personally i would like to see some of the following tweaks:
- Either slight potency increase on the regen effects under light art and/or allow for rapture to affect regen so we are able to capitalize on this healing over time effect
- base dmg on helix OR shorten the "tics" on the damage over time
- Fix Modus Veritas so that it becomes usable instead of always missing
- add regain potency to the light arts and tabula rasa changes so as to add to the "over time" theme we are seeing here.
(note: all of this is without any insight as to weather or not we will see helix tier 2 or anything about future updates so can not take any of that into account)
please let me know what you think about any of this and/or if you support any of this!
in either case regardless of weather by the end sch becomes desirable or not i am thankful for at least getting an opportunity (and people need to stop complaining about which job needs an update especially when it is about a job that is bottom tier of desire.) -
10-08-2011, 09:49 PMZhronneYes, in the end this was the real point of what I was trying to say.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sasaraixx
Stratagems are kinda a SCH trademark, so it sounds only right for them to be more "efficient" when on SCH main.
Being able to accession haste as SCH main would be a small example of what I'm saying. -
10-08-2011, 10:27 PMSasaraixx
Having finally read some of the information coming out from the test server, I have to say that I'm left very torn. I popped over the JP forum and the feeling is similar there as well. As Brayen said, we do not know what is in the works as far as new spells, so some of this worrying may not be justified in the end. It would be great if Camate could get some feedback from the development team on some of these to put our fears to rest. We don't need specifics as I am sure they are still being worked out, but it would be nice to know if they are aware of a few things.
1. Helix Changes
I was concerned that BLM or RDM would be able to make better use of these spells from /SCH, so the proposed future nerfs to them when accessed from /SCH is encouraging. The large problem I think is that this change basically makes SCH unnecessary for VW. You are already going to have a BLM for elemental magic procs and either it or the WHM can now cast the Helix spells as well. Modus Veritas misses so much that it is not even worth bringing a SCH for.
Also, the change in the levels in which the spells are learned was drastic. If tier II helices are going to be implemented, there is absolutely no reason to make a spell that was learned at 75 now available at lv32. Given how low these spells were made, I have to think that we should be getting Tier III Helix spells. I don't know how powerful they would be because I don't really have a sense of how strong the Helix spells are now after this adjustment. But purely from a level progression standpoint, you could easily fit in 2 more tiers: 18-32, 50-64 and 82-96. I am not saying SCH needs Tier III Helices. I've always said that our Dark Arts is pretty solid. I just cannot understand the reasoning behind making dropping these spells 40+ levels. If you were only going to add Tier II, then you didn't need to change the Tier I spells at all. The only reasons I can come up with are to make them available from /SCH for VW or to squeeze in multiple new tiers of the spell.
Also, if more tiers of Helix spells are added, they should become VW procs.
2. Regen Spells
These are great buffs. I still think the casting times are too long. I realize that the increased duration of the spells helps with that some, but you really should save off a second or two from the casting time for SCH.
I also think it would be nice for Regen spells to receive some kind of additional bonus similar to cureskin for WHM. As others have said, it is difficult to rely on these spells when mobs hit so hard these days. Of course we also have Cure IV, but some kind of additional bonus would really help in making SCH a viable healer. I have no idea what that could be of course. lol The other option is to lower the wait in between tics.
3. Modus Veritas/Klimaform
Both are nice changes. The accuracy of MV is still crazy but it doesn't look like SE is moving on this.
4. Further Light Arts/Dark Arts Bonuses
I really like the idea Brayen had of including Aldoquium to the list of spells effected by Light Arts. It should go up to 2tp/tic while under LA and maybe up to 2.5/3 at lv99. I'm not sure how much is too much to be honest. I do know that 1tp/tic is not worth casting.
The idea would also translate well if we receive the TP down spell that was mentioned in the Manifesto. It should be DOT type spell and its potency can be affected when cast under Dark Arts.
5. Animus Spells
Please do something with them! I'm really like the dot/hot/eot approach and these spells should be no different. -
10-08-2011, 11:02 PMbrayen
Animus spells could increase/decrease enmity over time sort of like a gradual enmity douse/ provoke maxing at around a 25~50%(total gain/loss) effect at the end of duration, personally these spells to me are worthless at current, (they are at the level of uselessness as Modus Veritas currently)
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10-08-2011, 11:07 PMCrossarius
Used Regen IV under the effect of Tabula Rasa and it healed 54 Hp/tick. Stacked with Embrava(62 Hp/tick) I had 116 Hp/tick.
Regen III under Tabula Rasa ticked at 44Hp/tick. All tests without Savant's Bonnet+2.
@Light arts
The buff to SCH main LA is really good in terms of Regen! However I would have liked to see a slight decrease in Cast/recast time too. LA/DA should boost a SCH main more than a /SCH, so give it some more bam to cast/recast (Don't even care about more than -10% MP costs) -
10-08-2011, 11:08 PMSiiriI don't play scholar, but everyone in my ls knows how much I hate it. So every time sch gets a buff I hear "we were already overpowered now we are more so. The new sch 2 hour is the most overpowered thing in the game" etc etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sasaraixx
I disagree, I think DRK needs more attention than both sch and thf. As for white mage, I agree WHM is fine, although I have a big issue as stated with any other job getting Cure V. My primary reason for protesting scholar buffs is because of the black mage in me, not the white mage. I think Sch is waaaaay too close to black mage. If buffs are needed it should be done on the light arts, not the dark arts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sasaraixx
Unpopular is not the same as underpowered. Sch is relatively unpopular, for many varied reasons. One of them is the same reason pup is unpopular, its job ability heavy and seems complicated to the average DD. I would definitely take PUP off the list of jobs that need updating, it is already plenty powerful, most people just don't want to play it. There are also other reasons scholar is comparatively unpopular, it is a job that encroaches on black mage, white mage and red mage and those 3 jobs have a lot of fervent supporters. I am not the only mage who hates scholar. On vent or skype the mention of scholar gets groans from most of the longtime black and red mages. It also was released poorly with no real role, and its brief fad (when all the HNMLS were leveling sch for AV) was nerfed quickly. -
10-08-2011, 11:47 PMMerton9999
Klimaform
No complaints on this. Lasting the full duration of the recast is more than I expected.
Helix
New duration and MP cost sound good. Though a longer duration on mobs I never used them on because they died too quickly is of course useless. And the mobs that don't die too quickly are too resistant or render helix useless with the dINT problem. Called the subbable thing, and absolutely hate it.
Regen
I'm not impressed by the numbers. I'd still rather have a casting time reduction. I'd like SCH to have a job trait similar to WHM's Divine Benison but for enhancing magic that would drastically cut casting time, recast time and enmity values.
Has it been confirmed that Regen IV is still not accessionable on the test server? I agree with Neisan's wording on accessionable spells. With a few timing exceptions while the caps were being raised (Shell V, Refresh) it is now the case that spells unavailable to SCH via main or support job cannot be accessioned. This says nothing about spells SCH can access. Haste and Reraise are not part of this statement because they are spells SCH can use. The issue is that in the current production game, WHM/SCH can't accession Regen IV (or Cure V) presumably because SCH can't use the spell. Since SCH will be able to use Regen IV, it should become accessionable. It would be absolutely ridiculous to allow Regen 1-3 to be AOE and not 4.
I also agree, like I have forever, that haste should be accessionable. I don't think it should be limited to SCH main. I do think the AOE capabilities of SCH should be better than other jobs /SCH, but other jobs /SCH are already severely limited by charge count and recovery. Also, buff cycling is the devil, and should be fought against with religious fervor on all jobs.
As far as SCH being hated and overbuffed: lol. To offer another perspective, my LS that is FULL of BLM and WHM mains, and one lone SCH main (me), has nothing but positive things to say about SCH. Not only do I get to play it in 90% of all current end game events, people constantly express their interest in leveling it now and look forward to their Hailstorm, Aurorastorm, and especially Crackbrava. -
10-08-2011, 11:52 PMSiiri
So it is not overpowered, but everyone wants to level it since the buffs? Make up your mind, people don't want to level a bad job.
Oh and the whole point of having a main job, like white mage or black mage you wouldn't level a competitor to replace it. I guess that is the difference in the black mages I know, they love the job and don't want to replace it with scholar. -
10-09-2011, 12:07 AMDaniel_HatcherRegen IV took accession of me but ReRaise didn't, so I'd say it can be Accessioned. Hard to fully test when no one is on the server and the people on it ignore you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Merton9999
EDIT: Just found a very nice person that allowed me to test, it is Accession-able. -
10-09-2011, 12:28 AMMerton9999Nice. Glad to see they thought of this. IIRC in addition to the icon being removed, I think you can also tell if the spell is accessionable by whether or not the MP cost is doubled in the spell list after using Accession.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher
Siiri I can see your point if people are emotional about their original job, I just don't honestly know that many people who are in the current environment. My perspective is very different at least. I played WHM and BLM for years before SCH was introduced. I leveled it because I thought it would be new and different compared to the 5-button sleepwalking sessions I had grown sick of on WHM and BLM. The first notice I had of all this jealousy and heartache over a competing job was reading forums. I never heard it in any of my LSs over the years.
As far as the contradiction between not being OP but people wanting to level it now: I didn't mean to imply that recent adjustments caused a surge in interest within my group. It's more just watching someone use 4-year-old stuff to do interesting things. They don't know what the job needs at 95 any more than anyone else who judges the OP status from afar by looking at one big nuke number in the chat log on average every 48 seconds. -
10-09-2011, 12:31 AMRakshaOf the 5 other people in my linkshell who have sch levelled (besides me) all 5 of them also have WHM levelled and 4 of them have BLM levelled.Quote:
Originally Posted by Siiri
The majority of those ppl would qualify themselves as "BLM main". Perhaps you just have weird BLMs in your LS. -
10-09-2011, 12:38 AMCuelebra
ok this is not cool. Unless they plan on giving SCH tier2 helix spells go ahead. VW is about process not damage. we have smns and dd's for that. SCH was actually useful because of process and ability to backup heal. now they are totally useless. I agree the buffs to SCH LA/DA are cool. but very few mobs require strong dot to kill in the game.
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10-09-2011, 12:41 AMZhronne
did some tests with Light Arts, Tabula Rasa and Regen
Regen IV adds +8 to potency for a final amount of 58 hp/tic at level 95 (with +2 bonnet)
Regen I was at 29 (without bonnet)
Lasting time during Tabula Rasa is approximatively 210 seconds.
It's +24 hp/tic compared to "normal" Regen IV, altough the more impressive thing here, more than the potency, is the lasting. Especially if paired with Perpetuance it's gonna have a pretty high uptime.
Potency formula for Light Arts looking to be something like: (SCH level / 5) -3
150% of that for Tabula Rasa.
Credit goes to Foldypaws of Lakshmi
Edit:
Oh also I forgot. Regen IV works with Accession! Works even as WHM/SCH. -
10-09-2011, 12:58 AMSasaraixxThat's the problem with all of yours posts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Siiri
You are trying to argue against a point that I did not raise. Where in any of my posts did I say that SCH is either underpowered or needs buffs because it is unpopular? The reason SCH is unpopular is because it serves no useful purpose in this game. If the job were nearly as overpowered as you claim, it would be the bandwagon job for 2011. I don't care how JA intensive it is.The reason it isn't popular is because it has no role and you admit that yourself. All of these SCHs in your LS who go on about how overpowered they are, how often are they asked to come SCH to events? The answer is probably rarely because there is almost never a reason to bring a SCH when you already have a BLM or WHM. THAT is the problem. We are starting to get to a point where that is changing and some people are feeling threatened. I can't for the life of me understand why. I have every mage job leveled and SCH isn't even the job I consider my main.Quote:
Originally Posted by Siiri
Buffs are needed to Light Arts because making it a more reliable main healer would help to carve out a role for it in this game. You concede the point that it is Light Arts that needs the buffs and not DA.
To be blunt, I don't care if you hate the job. I find most of your fears to be pretty silly. As long as there is a proc system, BLM will always be taken over SCH. The new defensive tools and mp regeneration available to BLM have also seriously helped the job. BLM can still kill things quicker, but SCH can pull ahead over time. There really isn't very much content out now, however, that rewards the DOT SCH brings to the table.
And there are so many different reasons why WHM is and always will be the #1 healer in this game that I'm tired of listing them. You could give Cure V to RDM and that wouldn't change at all. If SCH continues receive buffs to Light Arts then it will not need the spell.
And get over Tabula Rasa already. It's a two hour ability. And there are some pretty overpowered things that you can do with other two hours in this game.
The job isn't going away and the updates aren't stopping. It would probably be a lot more beneficial to everyone if you would instead offer suggestions of ways to make the job more compatible with other mages instead instead of complaining about nothing.
I also disagree with your opinion of PUP, THF and DRK but it is time for lunch and I've already written too much! -
10-09-2011, 02:27 AMSiiri
I don't have to have scholar to post on it. I see it every day. As knowledgeable as you are, Sasaraixx, I am sure you read Kaeko's blogs at 75 where he writes that sch made black mage basically obsolete. A lot of us don't like SE going down that path again.
We bring a scholar to voidwatch, the only real event left in the game. We always brought them to einherjar, limbus, dyna, etc I don't see scholars being left behind in events except abyssea. As for that, welcome to the other 12 jobs left behind by abyssea. I don't see these other jobs abyssea didn't want being buffed.
As for Cure V, I think red mage could get it right now and it wouldn't really affect white mage. I think scholar getting Cure V would cripple white mage. -
10-09-2011, 02:40 AMSotekWhy does everyone always use that blog post as ammunition against Scholar getting buffs?Quote:
Originally Posted by Siiri
Kaeko said Scholar basically made Black Mage obsolete but Black Mage never became obsolete and was never replaced by Scholar, quoting that statement holds absolutely no weight whatsoever. The only time Scholar ever replaced anything was White Mage in merit parties, except that was Red Mage since Scholar completely lacked Haste back then. Fuck, Scholar only replaced Black Mage in the sense of MP efficiency and that's something that practically doesn't even matter in the game anymore. Shorter fights, more Refresh gear, higher tiers of Refresh and gear that enhances the effect; MP efficiency is dead. -
10-09-2011, 03:05 AMSasaraixx
Sotek pretty much said it all. Back when there was actually a situation where it SCH was the better nuker, absolutely nothing in the game changed. After all of the buffs BLM has gotten directly and indirectly over the last 20 levels, you can't make that argument with any real sincerity.
And after this adjustment, assuming nothing else changes, there is no reason to bring SCH to Voidwatch. Your LS may bring SCH to VW b/c no one has any other jobs to go as or because your LS leader is nice and lets people go whatever job they want. None of that changes the fact that there really is no need to do so and that your group would probably be better of if those SCHs came as another job. Ein was the one event SCH had some unique utility. That has changed since the level cap increase. Dynamis and Limbus? Seriously?
And I do think you need to play the job to make some of the statements you are trying to. You don't seem to have any real grasp on what these changes are actually doing for the job overall. -
10-09-2011, 03:33 AMSiiri
Well what events are YOU talking about where scholar isn't wanted if you think dyna and limbus are lol. I specifically said at 75 when they were real events they came, who cares what people come now. There is 1 event left in the game, voidwatch. Actually I am the ls officer who sets up parties and selects jobs, and I bring a scholar because I think it offers unique abilites, and it does have procs. At this stage of the game I try to let people bring the jobs they want, while helping the group. With 18 people there is a lot of room for flexibility, and scholar is a nice hybrid, I just don't think it should over power the main jobs like it used to do to black mage.
I guess the new high kindred crest battles etc could be called new events. I usually set up those as well, and if its a 6 person one I always bring 2 mages, why wouldn't sch come? -
10-09-2011, 04:13 AMSotek
Oh you're still playing the game with 18 people. This explains everything.
Other than that, do you not read?! Scholar never overpowered Black Mage. Fuck, aren't you the one who complained at us for asking for Storm IIs because the "only good Scholar you knew" bet he could out damage you, didn't share Hailstorm and you still out damage him? I could go find the exact post and replies you never dared respond to if you like. Either stop talking through your ass or leave, your choice.
I'd start ignoring your contributions to the Scholar forums completely, but the way you fly over the massive holes in your logic is just too amazing to leave alone.
There is absolutely no issue with Scholar getting adjustments. It needs adjustments. This is hardly the treatment Samurai got where a perfectly fine job received buff after buff. Other jobs may need adjustments - and more so - as well, but the order SE has done such things has never made sense. If you think a job should have adjustments more than Scholar, go to their forum and complain about it there where they might actually be picked up. Complaining about it here does nothing but give us more reason to post reasons why Scholar needs buffs and suggestions for them, I'd imagine the reason we're getting more adjustments is because we consistently post decent constructive ideas, while something like the Red Mage forum can't even reach a consensus over meleeing and en spells. Giving us reason to flood this place with more posts for Scholar adjustments is counter productive to whatever it is you want to achieve. -
10-09-2011, 04:20 AMSiiri
No, the only event we do with 18 is vw. Because no one even has end game link shells anymore, and we have a lot of people who want to come. I have an emperyeon ws static and a +2 gear static with just a few people, although more than recommended because we have a great group of friends who like to hang out on skype etc and just have fun.
It doesn't matter personal player vs player, this was MATH that Kaeko laid out. You bet Kaeko or a really good scholar would obsolete a good black mage at 75. There are spreadsheets out there for DD that you plug in the gear, job, etc and it tells you the math on what is the best job. Same with sch, Kaeko laid out the FACTS, not personal opinions or variations in player's gear/skill/attention span. -
10-09-2011, 04:22 AMNeisan_Quetz
Yea, and his math as at 75 for single target nuking. If you haven't noticed, the cap is 95 now.
Outside of VW you don't need a large LS for anything. -
10-09-2011, 04:29 AMSiiriI was speaking at 75 when I spoke of black mage vs. scholar., and said I didn't want to go back to that point in time. Also, I specifically said the only large event done anymore is Voidwatch. So we agree on these points.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz
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10-09-2011, 04:38 AMNeisan_Quetz
In response to the 6 man 2 mages why not Sch - Why would you bring Sch over Blm at 95 (other mage being Whm)?
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10-09-2011, 04:41 AMSotek
You know a lot of Rapture theorists laid out maths and facts, too. Still doesn't change the fact that it didn't happen. Complaining at Scholar overpowering Black Mage at Lv.75 when it never happened is idiotic.
Do you want to know why it never happened? Because maths and facts don't fucking matter in real time. MP efficiency doesn't fucking matter. Ever. Plenty of HNMs typically involved tactics where you don't constantly nuke (Wyrms for example), leaving plenty of time to rest and thus damage becomes more important, Magic Bursts too. Then you have things like JoL where -aga are pretty important for dealing with adds. Granted those tactics aren't set in stone and have plenty of variation, but they were common place and the only way one job will render another job obsolete is if it replaces it in a common place situation. Scholar did not make Black Mage obsolete. Ever. -
10-09-2011, 04:46 AMEconomizerI was under the impression that the Light/Dark Arts changes were going to be for scaling with level, and the most basic parts of it might be available while /SCH, much like how Sublimation scales up with level currently. In my option, this is the way to go, but I know some people are so opposed to anything that might remotely buff White Mage even in an indirect way that they'd oppose something very logical like this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Muras
Regen isn't very MP efficient vs. cures for White Mages, but is for Red Mages and Scholars, since they can increase the duration, and don't benefit from cheaper cure spells. Nothing, not even SCH, the best sub for White Mage, can make Regen worth it, sort of doubling duration while subbing it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muras
Something else you might want to consider is if the spell gave 5-10TP a tic, but the tics were on the helix tics. You are more likely to be able to give a DD just enough TP to do a weapon skill with a lump sum payment of TP like this then you would be with more distributed amounts, and on the plus side, it fits Scholar even more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Muras
Haste is the most important buff in this game. Being able to AOE it across parties is not an ability that should be underestimated, nor snubbed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zhronne
Nice to hear, I was worried based on the tone here that it wouldn't work with that despite that not being the trend. I still won't cast it on White Mage except as a joke, even if a minor part of the duration and tic upgrade came to Regen spells from /SCH. But Scholars will have more reason to cast it, which is great. The question now is if it is enough to help Scholars (considering on a ton of the Abyssea content you don't need a White Mage anymore, it might be for that at least baring procs).Quote:
Originally Posted by Zhronne
It would change a lot of things. People will always go with the least amount of support and healing they can manage. Would you rather have the healer who is "good enough" at healing, has an edge at preventing physical damage, and is just slightly behind at preventing magical damage, and can nuke and enfeeble better while more reliably keeping Haste up, or would you rather have someone who is can cure somewhat better then "good enough"?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sasaraixx
The White Mage fears are completely founded and logical. The second anyone is able fill the same role "good enough" there won't be a need to go for anything but all out damage. This has happened time and time again, and will in the future if people are given the chance.
Wow. I'm guessing the only reason you are saying this is because some of the weather spells are sub usable, or your group doesn't bring many mages. Scholar's weather spells make mages more efficient, by a pretty sizable amount, and if you have a handful of mages nuking and a Scholar, you essentially have an extra mage nuking in addition to the Scholar's capabilities.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sasaraixx
I don't really see the point of Helix spells being sub usable except to make any job able to nuke with /SCH but it definitely isn't the only reason to bring Scholar to large events. Hopefully you can point these out whenever you feel like coming Scholar to an alliance sized event.
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All in all, ignoring the infighting, Scholars have been getting much needed adjustments. I can't really give a clear judgement on whether the arts adjustments being tested are "enough" but I can say that I still feel that a general boost to cures based on Healing Magic skill would be a nice addition to the game. If we can get the support of all jobs that cast cure spells without being illogically divided, we might be able to get SE to make Healing Magic skill boost the current cures we have over their current limits. -
10-09-2011, 04:47 AMSiiriBecause sometimes it is fun to let people come the job they want. If we are going to win no matter what, and when I go with my friends we are, its come what you want within reason. Not everyone wants to always go whm, blm and 4 wars or 4 sams or whatever the best DD is now outside abyssea.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz
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10-09-2011, 04:51 AMNeisan_Quetz
That doesn't make Sch any more viable or efficient for the task at hand.
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10-09-2011, 05:01 AMSiiriIf the logic is only one job should be perfect for each role, then I guess I will advance the opinion that the pure job with only one function, IE the black mage and white mage, should be the perfect job over the hybrid that can flip between the 2 roles. So if we are all running the perfect parties at all time we should cut about 12 jobs out of the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz
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10-09-2011, 05:16 AMNeisan_Quetz
Now you're getting it.
I say we start with Pup. -
10-09-2011, 06:03 AMAnkThats the only reference to light/dark arts adjustments I could find that explicitly said for mains only, and it was in "sch adjustment part [x]" talking about a vague possible future. The current adjustment is for mains only though, atleast casting on test shows that.Quote:
I was under the impression that the Light/Dark Arts changes were going to be for scaling with level
IIRC these same posts seemed to indicate that the devs thought letting rapture affect adloquium (1.5tp/tick instead of 1tp/tick?) would be over powered so don't hold your breaths for anything there.
Well at least I know I can come sch to things we can't lose regardless.Quote:
If we are going to win no matter what
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10-09-2011, 06:18 AMEconomizerI haven't really seen a lot of the testing info so far, but I'll take your word for it. While I think it would be better flavor wise for the adjustments to not just affect SCH main (unless the changes start happening at level 50) I don't think it will really impact White Mages at all to have some minor changes or no changes from /SCH. Red Mage might be more impacted by this, since Regen is also MP efficient for them under ideal circumstances, but Red Mage's sub job selection isn't as black and white as it is for White Mage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ank
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10-09-2011, 06:37 AMDelvish
I find it most amusing that it was BLMs not too long ago that were complaining about us with dark arts regarding our over-powered abilities. Given what they have, we only stood toe-to-toe with their less experienced compatriots. Now that there are adjustments to Light Arts short of Cure V, we have WHMs paying us visits now. Are we that hated that we can't be allowed a moment's peace when I can't even hold a candle to my AF clad whm level 70 fiancee? We are honestly hard pressed to reach 900 point cures while she can do just that with a single spell. These light arts adjustments are more of a necessity than a nice boost. Enjoy your high chair WHM, because no matter what adjustments we get, you will always have a place, just as you always have (sans merit burns, but those were boring anyway and a relic of the past).
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10-09-2011, 01:16 PMBoofaceing
I dont play Scholar. I see that the most fighting on this boards happens over these type of things from War hating on Samurai and back and forth. My opinion is that they are advanced classes. An Advanced Samurai should not have a warrior holding a candle to them. A black Mage studies the White magics and he is then a Scholar and he should be able to well hold a candle to any of the other 2 magic groups. He is an advanced class, a scholar of magics, which if I recall not only from lore but just from a university, a scholar beats out a single mage skilled in one art anyways. Scholars possess great knowledge of magical powers, more so then a simple mage reading scrolls to learn his incantations as the game puts it.
Just my 2 cents, I am in for supporting advanced jobs being advanced. (Have seen you guys in action, it was pretty bad compared to others. My impulses were screaming 'Why didn't this guy just go BLM/WHM or BLM/RDM at the least?'. That was at lower level though, maybe it changes drastically at higher and the people argueing still have a point?) -
10-09-2011, 09:28 PMSasaraixxAs others have said, you are incorrect. It was specifically addressed in one of the Q&As that these changes would be for SCH main. And there is nothing logical about this being available via sub. These changes are supposed to deal with the current problems SCH is having. It is no different than them adding new spells or JA. It is also no different than Afflatus not being available to other jobs via sub.Quote:
Originally Posted by Economizer
No. It wouldn't. People will always go with the least amount of jobs needed. A WHM is always going to be included in that group. SCH and RDM are vastly inferior to BLM when it comes to procs. You are *always* going to have a BLM in your group if you are smart. That makes the added nuking utility from RDM useless. (And if you are main healing on anything remotely difficult you are not going to be nuking.) The edge in preventing physical damage is also debatable given cureskin.Quote:
Originally Posted by Economizer
More reliably keep up Haste? A Haste cycle is so hard these days. . . And the superior enfeebling magic is also a weak argument, given how so many NMs are flat out immune to the best enfeebles. Dia III is the one exception, but if you think that plus Cure V is going to be enough to bump WHM back to pre-buff merit party status, then you are incredibly paranoid.
For someone who claims to be a WHM and posts so much about the job, your underestimation of what it brings to the table is astounding. "Can cure somewhat better then "good enough." Are you serious? Unique procs, physical and magical damage mitigation, more efficient and potent cures, useful enhancing magic, quicker cure casting, status removal,
. . . Guess what? WHM is still the better job of the 3 for going all out! If we were talking about BRDs being able to be passable main healers then the above statement would have some merit. But, we're not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Economizer
No, I'm saying that because SCH now only has one unique proc in VW and that was misses most of the time. There is no *need* to bring a SCH any longer. And bringing a SCH to cast weather spells on other mages (most of which can be cast on themselves) is not a reason to bring SCH to any event. You'd be better off inviting a SMN if you are talking about damage and utility.Quote:
Originally Posted by Economizer
Yes, it is. You've already said that groups will always use the least amount of people needed to do an event. Old content is laughably easy and casual now, so people will generally go with whatever job the want. Endgame now is VW and maybe Abyssea. The most important element of these events is the proc system. People will always do what is most efficient to get everyone in their groups the most drops as possible. BLM didn't become popular in Abyssea because of all of the great direct and indirect buffs it has received over these levels. It's because it brings so many yellow procs to the table. Guess what this adjustment did? Take away the only unique proc spells SCH had.Quote:
Originally Posted by Economizer
The other important considerations are 1)making sure you don't die and 2)being able to kill the thing you are fighting. Because WHM is head and shoulders above on #1, you don't need a SCH to fill that roll. SCH could step in for #2, but given the above, you're better off with a BLM.
You're also making arguments that really have nothing to do with the heart of what we are saying. There is no role, no need, no great ability that would make SCH a staple in lots of different situations. All you've come up with is casting weather spells on other mages, which is weak at best, and arguing that SCH *can* come to large scale events. Of couse, it *can* go. I could bring just about any combination of jobs to events and win. That is not the issue. It is that SCH really doesn't have a defining role or utility that make it either necessary or highly sought after. And as you already admitted, it is the nature to do things as efficiently as possible in this game.
That has nothing to do with this discussion and I don't know where this "illogical divide" you speak of exists. Everyone realizes that it is silly for /WHM jobs to be able to heal almost as well as SCH or RDM. An adjustment to healing magic would address this. It wouldn't change anything about SCH or RDM current problems or would it be much of a buff for WHM either, given how well it does everything else. Still, I doubt you'll find any SCH or RDM who would oppose it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Economizer