Raise the minimum allowable job level in Abyssea from 30 to 70+

@ dubberrucky: not all magian trials and AF3 can be done in 1-2 days. I've been working for awhile on some of mine... for instance, kill adze 30 times? that's not exactly something you can get done in 2 days time. especially if you solo most of all the stuff before that.

@ greatguardian: and the entire concept of an FFXI-middle class is absolutely assinine. from what i'm gathering, you *want* it to be a kingpin system where those of us that played back at US Release and got our crafts to 100 and hoarded gil and basically set the prices for new items and have our relic 5's and survived the economy crash way back at christmas of 2005 where gil-buying was so rife they had to make a task force for it. you want -those- players to be the upper class? and the rest of us to be somewhere-in-between-but-good-enough-that-we-aren't-considered-bad-players? ... yeah... cos that's completely fair in every conceivable way. let me go quit my day job and buy 100 million gil with money i don't have and rewind time so i can use mr argus in order to have even a CHANCE at catching up to you. the last thing this game needs is an oligarchy.

or.. i could just play the game without cheating and still get top tier by myself.

^ gonna go for that last one.

if anything, abyssea has given more jobs more reasons to level and more options for what they can do afterwards. it's a good thing.

what I'm seeing most in 40 pages is people who used to be "tier 1, tournament-level professionals" get dropped down to common throng by new tactics and new gear/advancements/etc when THEY didn't invent it this time. "They" gave us colibri camps, and an economy, and a method for levelling crafts, and an AH with stuff on it, and so on. "They" didn't give us abyssea leeching and why would they because "They" get smothered into the middle class because of it. Of course they hate it.

I levelled my thief from 37 to 75 by myself, solo, the entire way, over the course of 6 months when Wings first came out, and I did it entirely through campaign. The trick is that Sneak Attack is a guaranteed hit, so even for a lvl 37 I'd do my 5 damage here, 15 damage there (before they nerfed NPCs and buffed mobs in campaign. before the northlands, before any of that.) and you could get away with it and earn yourself a good little 200 xp a fight. Which, at a time when THF wasn't getting invites at all (my flag was up for most of my campaigning experience. even with a seacom. even though I can speak Japanese.) it was the ONLY way to level. I levelled it because I wanted a way to support my goldsmithing, which needed gold ingots and beyond. THF did that for me and got it through the 70s with gold and hanging out in Oldton Movalpolos for -ever-. Am I upset that people who joined 5 days ago can get to 90 THF? No. I'm upset that I couldn't. Am I jealous of them? No. Am I upset that my goldsmithing 80+ is worthless now? Absolutely.

But I have other threads proposing how to make that change. I don't just whine about it. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fiarlia

You act like you're the only one that knows why THFs would want CHR or Evasion. >_>

Sorry, nope. While it's possible that some people may not be aware that CHR is a mod for DE, the evasion gear should be pretty obvious.

It's still fairly easy to tell who is an idiot and who isn't by /checking someone. It may be harder to discern from the avergae to above average yes, but I'm talking about the people who use starting rings at 90, or level 14 ones, or an Ether Ring on a WAR. The people who are beyond stupid and beyond help. Those are easy to pick it. Quite often you don't even need to /check them to see that they're a window licker. Reading their shouts or comments may often be enough, /sea and check their subjob, and even times just look at their name. If I meet someone named Xxxcloudxgokux, chances are, they're absolutely stupid. Or most drug referencing names, really, figuring out who is stupid isn't impossible, and certainly not even hard. Pretending otherwise is silly.

---

Well Fiarlia, considering I've yet to run into other thfs on sylph who actually DO try and build chr, I found it necessary to point it out as an actual working gear strategy for that job.

I do agree with what you're saying though with people who play war and wear an ether ring. I'm not sure ALL of those people are beyond help. I think it mainly most people don't want to devote that much energy turning a window licker to a decent player. A lot of people on Sylph are too busy standing around Port Jeuno in their AF3 +2 gear looking like they're all special.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Naturebeckles

Well Fiarlia, considering I've yet to run into other thfs on sylph who actually DO try and build chr, I found it necessary to point it out as an actual working gear strategy for that job.

I do agree with what you're saying though with people who play war and wear an ether ring. I'm not sure ALL of those people are beyond help. I think it mainly most people don't want to devote that much energy turning a window licker to a decent player. A lot of people on Sylph are too busy standing around Port Jeuno in their AF3 +2 gear looking like they're all special.

---

I actually left Sylph for Bismarck last March for that very reason.

I think you misunderstand me. I appreciate the rise of FFXI's middle class. More well-geared, competent players means more people I can talk to, work with, and enjoy time with in game without tearing my hair out. The only thing I don't appreciate is the idea that "Everyone is now good at FFXI, so everyone has the right to tell the developers what to do and make pointless threads bitching about what other people do." Or, "I'm a middle-class player but FFXI is too easy, give me more challenge SE."

Do people think it makes them cool to say that? Why, because it's what certain upper class players have been saying for ages? I tell you what, it didn't make those people cool either. That said, I have no issue with rog, or Thorny, or any of the other upper class players who said FFXI was easy. But they earned the respect of the playerbase by contributing to the advancement of the community, not by going around bragging about how easy AF3 NMs that were designed to be easy are.

No one in the Dev team or the community cares specifically about my opinion, or Rog's, or Cream Soda's, Raen Ryong's, Fiarlia's, etc just because we're upper tier players. Why so many people seem to think their whims are of the utmost importance to the Devs and the community as a whole just because they're no longer low tier players is beyond me, and easily the most frustrating part of reading these forums.

Edit: For clarity, there is a huge difference between "Well, I don't like this." and "The devs need to change this or everyone will quit because I am awesome at economics and stuff"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Naturebeckles

Well Fiarlia, considering I've yet to run into other thfs on sylph who actually DO try and build chr, I found it necessary to point it out as an actual working gear strategy for that job.

---

Fair enough, I certainly can't fault you for trying to halt any bashing towards you before it happens. Just keep in mind that not everyone has to have it explained. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Naturebeckles

I do agree with what you're saying though with people who play war and wear an ether ring. I'm not sure ALL of those people are beyond help. I think it mainly most people don't want to devote that much energy turning a window licker to a decent player. A lot of people on Sylph are too busy standing around Port Jeuno in their AF3 +2 gear looking like they're all special.

---

Well, we're just going to have to disagree there. I personally believe any DD job that wears an MP ring, or gears for MP (this is not counting COR/WHM, obviously... the debate on how worthless that job combo itself is for another time though), or any BLM that nukes in STR gear is beyond help. I'm talking about the kind of gear that can actually make your head hurt if you try to wrap your mind around what their reasoning could have possibly been. The kind of gear that makes your jaw drop in disbelief.

I'm not talking about simple misguided gear choices, such as stacking STR upon STR for WS's in Abyssea, when fSTR is (likely) going to be capped and you'd be better off gearing for Attack (if uncapped) or the modifiers. I understand that not everyone will know when fSTR is capped, and may not even know what it is, and that's fine. Those people are simply misguided or not knowledgeable enough, and are usually open to suggestions and will take an effort to understand and apply it to the best of their ability. In fact a good number of these types of people will outright ask people for help, especially if they have friends that know the formulas and understand the inner workings of game mechanics. Now, since these people can be slightly off or misguided, seeing an occasional "WTF" piece of gear amidst otherwise perfectly sound selections (even if not quite the absolute best for that slot) is understandable, and /checking them usually won't make you think they're stupid when they're not. These people are also incredibly unlikely to wear MP rings on a DD job, or STR on BLM, nuking in a scythe.

I'm sorry, but I firmly believe there are players of this game who really are beyond help, whom I affectionately call window lickers. And I would rather sit afk in my AF3+2 or Twilight gear than help them. The slightly misguided? Sure! I'll even run the calculations for them (most that I talk to know I have spreadsheets of formulas). I have no problem helping those who can be helped, and do so fairly often.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rubeus

I actually left Sylph for Bismarck last March for that very reason.

---

I understand why. I myself though have made just enough friends on Sylph that I'll probably always be here (unless they pick Sylph to merge servers again of course). I made more friends when Fairy got merged with us last March. I have the attitude that if people don't like the way I am or how I play my game, they can go *bleep* themselves. I have no problem telling them that to their faces on the game either. I'll just keep leading Dynamis runs around people who can handle how I get worked up over the run just because I want it to be successful and can crack jokes with me and the other officers the whole run. We sometimes get some really great laughs by the end of it. ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fiarlia

Well, we're just going to have to disagree there. I personally believe any DD job that wears an MP ring, or gears for MP (this is not counting COR/WHM, obviously... the debate on how worthless that job combo itself is for another time though), or any BLM that nukes in STR gear is beyond help. I'm talking about the kind of gear that can actually make your head hurt if you try to wrap your mind around what their reasoning could have possibly been. The kind of gear that makes your jaw drop in disbelief.

I'm not talking about simple misguided gear choices, such as stacking STR upon STR for WS's in Abyssea, when fSTR is (likely) going to be capped and you'd be better off gearing for Attack (if uncapped) or the modifiers. I understand that not everyone will know when fSTR is capped, and may not even know what it is, and that's fine. Those people are simply misguided or not knowledgeable enough, and are usually open to suggestions and will take an effort to understand and apply it to the best of their ability. In fact a good number of these types of people will outright ask people for help, especially if they have friends that know the formulas and understand the inner workings of game mechanics. Now, since these people can be slightly off or misguided, seeing an occasional "WTF" piece of gear amidst otherwise perfectly sound selections (even if not quite the absolute best for that slot) is understandable, and /checking them usually won't make you think they're stupid when they're not. These people are also incredibly unlikely to wear MP rings on a DD job, or STR on BLM, nuking in a scythe.

I'm sorry, but I firmly believe there are players of this game who really are beyond help, whom I affectionately call window lickers. And I would rather sit afk in my AF3+2 or Twilight gear than help them. The slightly misguided? Sure! I'll even run the calculations for them (most that I talk to know I have spreadsheets of formulas). I have no problem helping those who can be helped, and do so fairly often.

---

I myself am guilty of checking people and thinking WTF???

But I have experiences of helping somebody who others might consider a window licker turn into a decent player and some of those players are actually some of my BEST players in Dynamis. I have also tried to help some people become better players and it was just a flat out lost cause. But yeah, I do know what kind of people you mean and I don't disagree that those people exist. I guess I'm hard headed enough to try and help some of them and then just give up when it's obvious they're a true window licker. ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Greatguardian

I think you misunderstand me. I appreciate the rise of FFXI's middle class. More well-geared, competent players means more people I can talk to, work with, and enjoy time with in game without tearing my hair out. The only thing I don't appreciate is the idea that "Everyone is now good at FFXI, so everyone has the right to tell the developers what to do and make pointless threads bitching about what other people do." Or, "I'm a middle-class player but FFXI is too easy, give me more challenge SE."

Do people think it makes them cool to say that? Why, because it's what certain upper class players have been saying for ages? I tell you what, it didn't make those people cool either. That said, I have no issue with rog, or Thorny, or any of the other upper class players who said FFXI was easy. But they earned the respect of the playerbase by contributing to the advancement of the community, not by going around bragging about how easy AF3 NMs that were designed to be easy are.

No one in the Dev team or the community cares specifically about my opinion, or Rog's, or Cream Soda's, Raen Ryong's, Fiarlia's, etc just because we're upper tier players. Why so many people seem to think their whims are of the utmost importance to the Devs and the community as a whole just because they're no longer low tier players is beyond me, and easily the most frustrating part of reading these forums.

Edit: For clarity, there is a huge difference between "Well, I don't like this." and "The devs need to change this or everyone will quit because I am awesome at economics and stuff"

---

I wasn't going on the assumption that things NEED to be changed or anyone NEEDS to listen to anyone else; and for what it's worth, I wholeheartedly agree that the pseudo-french-revolution in ffxi is a direct result of so many low-tier players becoming middle-tier and feeling spit-upon the entire way up the ladder. Now they have an easymode (and I will concede that's what it is) but as many many people have already pointed out, skill is not a direct correlation to how you got there, and your choices are abundant.

I'm not trying to make any other point besides this: there are other opinions besides my own, your own, his/her own, and so forth. Understanding this is tantamount to understanding necessary changes, if any. You would need to know all the business repercussions to SE before you could know the repercussions to the game's economy which would still affect new players' coming in and old players' leaving rate.

In short, lots of things in FFXI take a long time to do. LOTS of things. If it isn't broken, don't fix it. Face-value judgments are the worst. Fanatical devotion to an opinion without seeing anyone elses is called ignorance. There is a lot on the table in this very tiny category of debate, and knowing it all would take time and analysis of every possible outcome. If a person can't contribute towards HOW to 1: analyze it and 2: improve it then DON'T TALK ABOUT IT.

P.S.: this isn't directed at anyone in specific; but pages 30-35 should give you an idea of how it SHOULDN'T go.

If you want to be judgemental, that's fine
If you want to not like people who don't do things the way you think they should, that's fine.

In either of those cases, you should either
1) help that person if they can be helped
2) ignore them and be on your way, or
3) blacklist them., don't party with them, do whatever, I don't care, as long as it's not demanding a band-aid for a non-problem.

What doesn't need to be done is have changes made. Most people playing the game now are not new. In most cases, if they're leeching a job at all, they probably already have the skills for leveled from another job, or they're leveling it purely as a sub and have no intention of playing that job seriously.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rubeus

I wasn't going on the assumption that things NEED to be changed or anyone NEEDS to listen to anyone else; and for what it's worth, I wholeheartedly agree that the pseudo-french-revolution in ffxi is a direct result of so many low-tier players becoming middle-tier and feeling spit-upon the entire way up the ladder. Now they have an easymode (and I will concede that's what it is) but as many many people have already pointed out, skill is not a direct correlation to how you got there, and your choices are abundant.

I'm not trying to make any other point besides this: there are other opinions besides my own, your own, his/her own, and so forth. Understanding this is tantamount to understanding necessary changes, if any. You would need to know all the business repercussions to SE before you could know the repercussions to the game's economy which would still affect new players' coming in and old players' leaving rate.

In short, lots of things in FFXI take a long time to do. LOTS of things. If it isn't broken, don't fix it. Face-value judgments are the worst. Fanatical devotion to an opinion without seeing anyone elses is called ignorance. There is a lot on the table in this very tiny category of debate, and knowing it all would take time and analysis of every possible outcome. If a person can't contribute towards HOW to 1: analyze it and 2: improve it then DON'T TALK ABOUT IT.

P.S.: this isn't directed at anyone in specific; but pages 30-35 should give you an idea of how it SHOULDN'T go.

---

I would like to add that any player who has been here long enough to remember level 75 being our highest level can attest to SE's severe lack of using feedback to improve their game in the past. The first time that opinion changed for me was when they FIXED Despoil for thf and Restraint for war (when those two ja's came out they were HORRIBLE and not even worth using).

The fact that SE even cares enough to listen now after a good 8-9 years of not giving a crap speaks volumes to me. Do I think my own little voice matters more than it did a year ago? Not really. It's harder than hell to get a hold of a GM in the game now for legitimate reasons. But at least SE is making an effort to keep its already paying customers to fix or change the game to make it the most worthwhile experience for the most people possible. Well, at least the development team is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Avina

Uh, there is a little bit on the forum rules that talk about respecting one another. I think my point was rather that you can phrase your comments in ways that don't make you look like a complete troll. Poor little person? I like how you think game forums are some sort of hardcore cut-throat environment. Newsflash buddy: you are posting on a website devoted to a video game, getting all bent out of shape and offended because someone else shares a different opinion than you. Grow up, lol. It's a video game (although you may view it as more).

And by the way, its not your little amateur poetry night-whatever crap. Go hang out in a real bar sometime and talk to people like that, you might get some black eyes.

---

I think the idea of raising the level minimum past the current minimum of level 30 to be a very bad idea. I disagree with the suggestion and do not wish for it to be implemented.

I do not believe leveling slowly in a six person party outside of Abyssea will allow someone to attain more skill than someone who does level from 30 up inside of Abyssea. This is especially true for someone who has leveled several jobs already and has a good idea of how to play the game.

I do not find the slow "traditional" experience points party to be enjoyable. It is a slow, boring slog, fighting through the same monsters over and over again. I would much rather be doing quests, missions, special events, or fighting Notorious Monsters with the little time I have to play FF11.

I am glad that Abyssea allows players of level 30+ to exp in the relatively painless 'key leech' method these days and I hope to see this method continue for some time.

Was that polite enough for you?

i suffered through the first 8 pages of this goatscrew of a thread, i severely regret it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Avina

Uh, there is a little bit on the forum rules that talk about respecting one another. I think my point was rather that you can phrase your comments in ways that don't make you look like a complete troll. Poor little person? I like how you think game forums are some sort of hardcore cut-throat environment. Newsflash buddy: you are posting on a website devoted to a video game, getting all bent out of shape and offended because someone else shares a different opinion than you. Grow up, lol. It's a video game (although you may view it as more).

And by the way, its not your little amateur poetry night-whatever crap. Go hang out in a real bar sometime and talk to people like that, you might get some black eyes.

---

Oh, wow...

Never ceases to amaze me. Respect has nothing to do with being nuturing towards people. Heck, it's not even about being nice to people. I pointed out the fact that your opinions are not so much opinions but authoritative demands. Sure you can argue semantics saying, "No no no my opinion is that Abyssea exp is bad." The problem is on the end of it you put a big AND then make the demand for everyone to abide by what you find fun and acceptable. You completely ignore that though and think I'm just being mean. You by definition are a troll you're adding nothing to the discussion and just starting pointless side arguments. Go away and stop trying to be an e-thug. If you have a real point I'll respond.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Orson

Oh, wow...

Never ceases to amaze me. Respect has nothing to do with being nuturing towards people. Heck, it's not even about being nice to people. I pointed out the fact that your opinions are not so much opinions but authoritative demands. Sure you can argue semantics saying, "No no no my opinion is that Abyssea exp is bad." The problem is on the end of it you put a big AND then make the demand for everyone to abide by what you find fun and acceptable. You completely ignore that though and think I'm just being mean. You by definition are a troll you're adding nothing to the discussion and just starting pointless side arguments. Go away and stop trying to be an e-thug. If you have a real point I'll respond.

---

I missed where you got around to thinking we were talking about my point of view. I gave my point of view back at page 20, if you want to go and read it there you can. I'm pretty sure I say there, pretty clearly that I don't think it would necessarily be best to raise the entrance cap. I explain there some of the problems that I've seen, at least on Siren, that have resulted from this, but there is clearly a large part of the game's population that doesn't want to see this entrance cap raise.

How would I fix it? I'd give buffs to perks to exping outside of Abyssea. Conquest points/Imperial Standing/Allied Notes gear rewards haven't been updated for years. Put some solid, good gear that's useful for a level 90 and maybe people will come out and exp 6-man more. Doesn't hurt the people who want to Abyssea leech and might increase the amount of people who do these activities. Not saying this would guaranteed fix it, but bonuses such as this (if they were worthwhile enough) would probably help.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HFX7686

Was that polite enough for you?

---

Works by me, lol. And I agree with you on many of the points.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rubeus

personally, i don't see how soloing makes you any better a player than abyssea keying does.

---

And it's about here that I see the post is going to go south...

Soloing means you actually have to play the job, or you aren't going to last long in any capacity...

I think that's what the OP is calling for here, as am I (but for a different reason).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Naturebeckles

One of the things I hate most about some people is that some of them like to THINK they're intelligent and even SOUND like they're intelligent... but they're really not. You're one of them, Starcade.

---

Well, only because of the fact I don't bend over to the popular players (most of whom should be investigated -- some again...)

I fail to see how that has any correlation with your intelligence and self-awareness (or lack thereof).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Now Abyssea leeching is an exploit. Okay.

---

Anything is an exploit which is not what the developers intended. Such is one of the nasty side effects of the 1/22/09 Salvage bans.

Because (and I said this voluminously at the time) now you have to question not only what is legal, but whether Square-Enix is deliberately turning their back on certain players and allowing only certain players to do illegal conduct...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Greatguardian

I'll not bother replying to your replies to me because it's fairly obvious you can't read,

---

I didn't know the definition of "reading" was "agreeing with me (GreatGuardian)". Common malady on the Internet.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Greatguardian

and completely parroted back the exact reasons I said you were wrong.

I do find it funny, however, that you believe you have the right to dictate how FFXI should be played. As I recall, that is Square Enix and Square Enix alone's prerogative.

---

Which the players OPENLY abrogate (to the large extent) and Square-Enix turns it's back on (unless they get called on the carpet enough and embarrassed into doing something about it).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Greatguardian

When SE found out about Salvage duping, they declared it an exploit and had an emergency maint (and banned people who intentionally exploited it *instead* of telling GMs because it was hidden for so long).

---

Baloney -- Square-Enix knew for 18 months.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Greatguardian

If this makes you feel that Square Enix is simply not enforcing their game properly and enabling bad players, it is your *Responsibility* to stop supporting that "Illegitimate" company and just quit. You're not really worth the lulz.

---

I would, except that's what the cheaters and their supporters (and I'll be generous for this post alone to say I am not sure which you are) want.

Quit lying, Ilax.

If we didn't have a player-base no one would trust, this wouldn't be necessary.

You're not going to fix the problem the OP posted about until you deal with the player-base.

Square-Enix has CONTINUALLY trusted the player-base FAR too much. There's no derail here.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Starcade

And it's about here that I see the post is going to go south...

Soloing means you actually have to play the job, or you aren't going to last long in any capacity...

I think that's what the OP is calling for here, as am I (but for a different reason).

---

wow. Just wow. [dev1003] how do i blacklist someone on forums?

Here's the thing, honey, since you just don't seem to get it yet.
1: the world doesn't revolve around your point of view.
2: the world is not black and white.
3: the illuminati don't run the world. there is no supermafia controlling all of life and its various transactions and interactions as we know it. the aliens really won't save you. your paranoia about the CIA really is JUST paranoia.
4: saints are not superhumans with an infallible moral backbone and a divine connection to a surreal force beyond comprehensibility. the pope is not the arbiter of justice and the goodness in humanity given flesh. sinners aren't demon-chimera abominations who've done nothing good for anyone in their lives. not everyone cheats to get what they want. you are not the SE gestapo who decide what cheating is and is not.

and for the moneyshot:
5: soloing does not in any capacity have anything to do with how you play endgame. neither does abyssea. neither one will make you more or less gil. neither one can be said to produce more quality without adequate testing and confirmation. you are not a superscientist. moreover, i can solo anything you name, even whm or brd, to 90 off of FoV 10 levels behind me and going very, very slowly. I am NOT going to play this if a little person is over my shoulder the ENTIRE time making sure YOUR idea of "fair play" is enforced the ENTIRE way through MY game career.

YOU need to get over your god complex before someone in "that HD thing outside the window with all the bad people my cultist mother told me to watch out for" slaps the dumb out of you. :)

have a nice... i can't even BRING myself to call it a life.

Quote:

---

Anything is an exploit which is not what the developers intended.

---

How long have you been playing? Did you ever tnak on ninja? You were exploiting if so! It was not initially designed to be a tank! Unless you didn't start playing the game and never had a nin tank in any of your pts until after SE gave in to the player base to make nin a tank.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rubeus

wow. Just wow. [dev1003] how do i blacklist someone on forums?

---

Click my name, it'll pull up my profile.

There should be a link to the left as to adding to the ignore list.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rubeus

Here's the thing, honey, since you just don't seem to get it yet.
1: the world doesn't revolve around your point of view.
2: the world is not black and white.

---

The problem is when the "grey" basically compromises the entire experience except for an elite few.

This was one of the reasons that VanaFest 2010 actually gave me hope for the future of this enterprise.

There is far too much "grey" in FFXI -- one of the reasons I never touched FFXIV (and WILL NOT) is because of how much grey area is in this game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rubeus

3: the illuminati don't run the world. there is no supermafia controlling all of life and its various transactions and interactions as we know it. the aliens really won't save you. your paranoia about the CIA really is JUST paranoia.

---

Someone's been reading some of my other writings.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rubeus

4: saints are not superhumans with an infallible moral backbone and a divine connection to a surreal force beyond comprehensibility. the pope is not the arbiter of justice and the goodness in humanity given flesh. sinners aren't demon-chimera abominations who've done nothing good for anyone in their lives. not everyone cheats to get what they want. you are not the SE gestapo who decide what cheating is and is not.

---

No, but when those who ARE the Square-Enix gestapo ignore their own words and their own edicts, someone has to call them on the carpet.

You see, you don't get that -- you just want this massively multiplayer sandbox to go run over with a steamroller.

I can't and won't operate in that atmosphere. If I thought the way you did, people would get hurt badly. (One more for Alia or the like to put under "criminal behavior" or somesuch.)

If respect for this player-base is required to play FFXI, then Square-Enix has one option -- to expel me from said player-base.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rubeus

and for the moneyshot:
5: soloing does not in any capacity have anything to do with how you play endgame. neither does abyssea. neither one will make you more or less gil. neither one can be said to produce more quality without adequate testing and confirmation. you are not a superscientist. moreover, i can solo anything you name, even whm or brd, to 90 off of FoV 10 levels behind me and going very, very slowly. I am NOT going to play this if a little person is over my shoulder the ENTIRE time making sure YOUR idea of "fair play" is enforced the ENTIRE way through MY game career.

---

Then you have to have your presence on this game questioned. You don't want ANYONE'S idea of "fair play", including Square-Enix'.

The players need to have to look over their shoulder vis-a-vis "fair play", else you get like what FFXI has been the last four years or so, and that's a game who's population has been stagnating and/or dropping because illegitimate and illegal play has been propping it up.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rubeus

YOU need to get over your god complex before someone in "that HD thing outside the window with all the bad people my cultist mother told me to watch out for" slaps the dumb out of you. :)

---

That a threat or an offer?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rubeus

have a nice... i can't even BRING myself to call it a life.

---

I can't live what you call a "life".

sweet silence of blist.
i'm half tempted to just ask anyway though... is it lonely up there on your pedestal?

i should thank you though, honestly. you know, if not for you, i'd still be defending that any player whose willing can be taught. now i changed my mind. bravo on you for that epiphany. i'm going to go shower with a brillopad now until i forget this illogical travesty tainting my brain.
good night all

@Starcade

Here's the thing:

Who are you to dictate what the developers did and did not intend? I'm going to narrow the parameters for this query to Abyssea leeching. Prove to me that FFXI's Development or Community Teams have shown in some fashion, beyond reasonable doubt, that they do not approve of or did not intend to allow Abyssea leeching.

You are the one who broached leeching as an exploit. In order to be an exploit and not an innovation, it must be something which actively subverts game mechanics in an unwanted (unwanted by FFXI Dev, NOT by you) manner.

As for your query, I don't need to "cheat" to be a better player than you. Though I'm sure you'd devise some reason to call me a cheater having completed two Empyreans in a week's time. Obviously anyone who plays the game well cheats in some fashion or another, etc etc etc.

Just ignore Starcade, stop asking for his responses...christ, this is why we can't have nice things. Eventually he will grow tired of trolling and move on.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Greatguardian

@Starcade

Here's the thing:

Who are you to dictate what the developers did and did not intend? I'm going to narrow the parameters for this query to Abyssea leeching. Prove to me that FFXI's Development or Community Teams have shown in some fashion, beyond reasonable doubt, that they do not approve of or did not intend to allow Abyssea leeching.

---

Questions like this -- actions like the Fortification nerf in Campaign a while back. They want players participating, not usurping the system for their own ends.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Greatguardian

You are the one who broached leeching as an exploit. In order to be an exploit and not an innovation, it must be something which actively subverts game mechanics in an unwanted (unwanted by FFXI Dev, NOT by you) manner.

---

And I can come up with a way that it would -- see above.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Greatguardian

As for your query, I don't need to "cheat" to be a better player than you. Though I'm sure you'd devise some reason to call me a cheater having completed two Empyreans in a week's time. Obviously anyone who plays the game well cheats in some fashion or another, etc etc etc.

---

I don't have to "devise some reason". You want the status quo retained, and there's a reason for that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vinc

Just ignore Starcade, stop asking for his responses...christ, this is why we can't have nice things. Eventually he will grow tired of trolling and move on.

---

You don't deserve nice things if that's the attitude you want to have -- because that tells me far more than I think you want to tell me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vinc

Just ignore Starcade, stop asking for his responses...christ, this is why we can't have nice things. Eventually he will grow tired of trolling and move on.

---

No, actually, he keeps going until he gets banned from the forum. See: any other FFXI forum.

I just desperately hope that when it happens again here, the ban will carry over to the game. This guy a self-righteous, self-important holier than thou asshat of the highest calibur. He refuses to ever acknowledge any viewpoints differing from his own and constantly throw around insults and slander. He also completely ignores any valid point against his argument (read; pretty much everything anyone else ever says, anywhere at any time).

The only way we will ever be free of this idiocy is waiting and biding time until he gets banned (again). Either that or everyone puts him on their ignore list, which isn't likely to happen.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Starcade

Questions like this -- actions like the Fortification nerf in Campaign a while back. They want players participating, not usurping the system for their own ends.



And I can come up with a way that it would -- see above.



I don't have to "devise some reason". You want the status quo retained, and there's a reason for that.

---

Your assumption

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vinc

Just ignore Starcade, stop asking for his responses...christ, this is why we can't have nice things. Eventually he will grow tired of trolling and move on.

---

Starcade's been playing the same act for something like 5 years or more now. He's not going to stop any time soon. The only reason he doesn't have more publicity is he's been long banned from pretty much every FFXI community forum. If no one gives him places to spout his crap, he'll make a new thread to spout more crap. I figure it's better to have him in a worthless, long-finished thread like this than making new threads and giving even more people headaches.

Hell, he thinks I care about the status quo, that's funny. Read my discourse with Rubeus, I feel I make it fairly clear that I appreciate the change in the status quo; I simply dislike people who think it's their right to forcefully impose their standards for playing an open-world online game on other people.

Edit: For clarity, there is a difference between telling a WAR that TP'ing in full Heca is stupid and petitioning SE to have full AF Wars Banned. Key difference.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fiarlia

No, actually, he keeps going until he gets banned from the forum. See: any other FFXI forum.

I just desperately hope that when it happens again here, the ban will carry over to the game.

---

That's what's going to have to happen -- because, when it does, it will show that Square-Enix is so desperate to make a buck that they couldn't give two whits about the equity or legality of play. I've heard it once -- I've heard it 100 times: "All they care about is your $12.95/mo."

I only play FFXI to say that it had better be more than that on their end -- else, why bother? The players (who, as a whole, I have zero respect for) will just steamroll any mechanism that Square-Enix attempts to better the game with.

They steamrolled Abyssea -- they're going to steamroll new-Dynamis -- they're going to make it such that the only players getting enjoyment from the game either have long-standing friendships or a mastery of griefing and a desire to deny progress to everyone who doesn't kiss their royal behind.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fiarlia

This guy a self-righteous, self-important holier than thou asshat of the highest calibur. He refuses to ever acknowledge any viewpoints differing from his own and constantly throw around insults and slander. He also completely ignores any valid point against his argument (read; pretty much everything anyone else ever says, anywhere at any time).

---

You mean anything which requires me to kiss royal behinds. I'm not good at that, in case you last checked.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fiarlia

The only way we will ever be free of this idiocy is waiting and biding time until he gets banned (again). Either that or everyone puts him on their ignore list, which isn't likely to happen.

---

That's what's going to have to go down, both here and in-game.

But let me make it very simple for you:

There are so many cheaters out there that I trust NO ONE.

I think you have all forgotten what the topic is about.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Starcade's been playing the same act for something like 5 years or more now. He's not going to stop any time soon. The only reason he doesn't have more publicity is he's been long banned from pretty much every FFXI community forum.

---

Considering I have zero respect for the FFXI community (and it's enablement and inclusion of cheaters), that's no real surprise.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Greatguardian

If no one gives him places to spout his crap, he'll make a new thread to spout more crap. I figure it's better to have him in a worthless, long-finished thread like this than making new threads and giving even more people headaches.

---

Basically, my very presence breathing gives people headaches. Found that out a long time ago.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Hell, he thinks I care about the status quo, that's funny. Read my discourse with Rubeus, I feel I make it fairly clear that I appreciate the change in the status quo; I simply dislike people who think it's their right to forcefully impose their standards for playing an open-world online game on other people.

---

You're a bad liar. The only reason there is any order in such an open-world game is such imposition. You just want to be the imposer, rather than the imposed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alhanelem

I think you have all forgotten what the topic is about.

---

The topic sucked, and was talked to death over the first 25 pages. If you can find something that wasn't actually mentioned or talked about a dozen times already to legitimately discuss, feel free to bring it up.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Starcade

You're a bad liar. The only reason there is any order in such an open-world game is such imposition. You just want to be the imposer, rather than the imposed.

---

Oh I see. If I'm not [insert what Starcade thinks I'm doing] then I'm lying about ['']. Guess there goes just about anything anyone could ever say in a discourse with you. Wow you're smart, you've got this all figured out.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Greatguardian

The topic sucked, and was talked to death over the first 25 pages. If you can find something that wasn't actually mentioned or talked about a dozen times already to legitimately discuss, feel free to bring it up.

---

Then the thread should've been locked twenty pages ago.

The fact is simple: Questions like the OP's would not be necessary in a playerbase which respects legal play, which this one DOES NOT.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fiarlia

No, actually, he keeps going until he gets banned from the forum. See: any other FFXI forum.

I just desperately hope that when it happens again here, the ban will carry over to the game. This guy a self-righteous, self-important holier than thou asshat of the highest calibur. He refuses to ever acknowledge any viewpoints differing from his own and constantly throw around insults and slander. He also completely ignores any valid point against his argument (read; pretty much everything anyone else ever says, anywhere at any time).

The only way we will ever be free of this idiocy is waiting and biding time until he gets banned (again). Either that or everyone puts him on their ignore list, which isn't likely to happen.

---

to that last part? ohhhh... you'd be surprised. /trendsetting

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alhanelem

I think you have all forgotten what the topic is about.

---

there's like, 5 of these exact same subject-ed threads. they're just worded cleverly. i dislike repeating myself, so i'm only making my point on this one. this one has thoroughly taken the "don't change it" approach though, from the majority anyway. should we go move our banter into ANOTHER thread or just stay in this one?

I know what I would prefer if I were in your shoes.

well then you should all just stop posting in them then or hope for the staff to get to locking :p

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Starcade's been playing the same act for something like 5 years or more now. He's not going to stop any time soon. The only reason he doesn't have more publicity is he's been long banned from pretty much every FFXI community forum. If no one gives him places to spout his crap, he'll make a new thread to spout more crap. I figure it's better to have him in a worthless, long-finished thread like this than making new threads and giving even more people headaches.

Hell, he thinks I care about the status quo, that's funny. Read my discourse with Rubeus, I feel I make it fairly clear that I appreciate the change in the status quo; I simply dislike people who think it's their right to forcefully impose their standards for playing an open-world online game on other people.

Edit: For clarity, there is a difference between telling a WAR that TP'ing in full Heca is stupid and petitioning SE to have full AF Wars Banned. Key difference.

---

^ I agree with GG. SE made these forums for us to provide feedback and say what we would like for the game. Feedback, at least on a business and scientific level, isn't "I LIKE THIS COS I DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!1!!@" feedback is "this is what I think, and why, and why it makes sense to me." someone else disagrees they say "well I disagree. I think this, and this is why I think that way, and I can understand why you'd think your way, but did you stop to consider ___" to which person 1 will either retort with 'yes, it was an unspoken' or 'no, but in regards to that my plan would be ___, or 'no, I am wrong, apologies.' that isn't happening with star. you can't even try; its been done. I don't even need to feign proof of that, it's 20 pages knee-deep in itself like a 4th of july with full band celebration just begging "LOOK AT ME FOR PROOF!"

-endoftransmission-