[Dev 1009] Force Pop HNM's FTW

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Originally Posted by Flunklesnarkin

Enough with the negativity.. try to say something constructive.. or make a suggestion to the dev's

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I have it was drowned out with "stop crying" and other such attacks.

I'd like to see multiple sources for NQ pops and at least a small chance of bb items form NQ pop rather than their total removal. Instead I'll see posts about how easy it is to get seals or that this is my incentive to not get all my exp in abyssea as if parties will magically start forming in old zones again. Oh wait, those already got posted.

As much as Rambus is getting annoying the "suggest something" angle is a laugh, hot topics always wind up this way. Most posts will be pigeon holed into crying or fanboy early on.

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Originally Posted by GlobalVariable

I'd like to see multiple sources for NQ pops and at least a small chance of bb items form NQ pop rather than their total removal. Instead I'll see posts about how easy it is to get seals or that this is my incentive to not get all my exp in abyssea as if parties will magically start forming in old zones again. Oh wait, those already got posted.

As much as Rambus is getting annoying the "suggest something" angle is a laugh, hot topics always wind up this way. Most posts will be pigeon holed into crying or fanboy early on.

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the easiest "fix" is not change the drop rates for BB items since you need 99 KS.

other ways around it is seal extange but i think a big issue would be people doing KB more then anything

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Originally Posted by Rambus

the easiest "fix" is not change the drop rates for BB items since you need 99 KS.

other ways around it is seal extange but i think a big issue would be people doing KB more then anything

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That was a lot better than freaking out and crying over it lol.. hopefully the devs listen.

Way to many posts to read through them all so here's my thoughts on the matter...

KS99 version of the 3 land kings are harder than HQ versions.
NQ versions already had a stupid low drop rate and that should remain and not be removed.

So doing KS99 for a 100% chance at the NQ that drops nothing for a chance at the HQ that's easy compared to the KS99 version is just wrong.

Should Raise the drop rate of the KS99, Keep the same drop rate for the NQ, and lower the drop rate on the HQ slightly lets say 80% instead of 100%. Making the drop rates of other items a little higher wouldn't hurt either like the Defending ring and Strider Boots.

Rambus do you think by spamming this thread the devs will take you any more seriously? It is more than apparent that the majority who posted are in favor of this change. Stop beating your head off the wall and screaming mememememe! until the update actually comes out. Or try making a dev suggestion thread. Honestly the more you post in here screaming about egg, the more it looks like you are only worried about one thing, and not the entire community you claim to be representing. Hell if I am bored one day, I will go to ksnm turtle with you for the lols- i think we are on same server.

I could accept this change if there will be some sort of Seal Exchange as suggested by others. As it stands right now the Effort greatly outweighs the reward.

IDk if this has been said or not,(I got to page 15 of this thread and got board) but here it goes.

Player: "I want a Kraken Club! but the RMTs are over camping it"
SE: Never fear, player!

SE moved the K-Club to BCNM 60. Granted, 60BSs take less time to get then 99KSs, but it is the same concept.

I dont see anyone complaining about the K-club. And, if you want something thats "not the BB, but close to it" like the Octave club... POOF, have a brown belt.

I support this 100% and can not wait for the update.

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Originally Posted by KigenAngelios

I could accept this change if there will be some sort of Seal Exchange as suggested by others. As it stands right now the Effort greatly outweighs the reward.

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And that is the problem. If you think farming KS really requires effort, you should just quit. What part exactly of smacking EP mobs or farming crafting mats requires effort? OMG i might have to farm or form a shout group! Lots of effort there /sarcasm

I'm still sorta in awe of this whole "KSNM drop rates are toooo looooow" stuff. I've done plenty of KS99, and I could just as easily say I've had a 100% drop rate for BB items (it's more like 50-75% really, I've never had a problem seeing them). Is that unusually high? Definitely. But here's the thing (Shamelessly snipping this from another Poster in another thread): The plural of anecdote is not data.

Do you know what that means? Your personal experiences don't mean a darn thing in regards to the actual drop rate in a global setting. The Dev Team could set the drop rate to 99% and you could still go 1/30. It would be unlikely, but it's not impossible.

Now, I'm not saying the current KS99 drop rates are super freaking awesome, but offhand they do seem to mirror the NQ HNM drop rates anyways. So what's the big deal? I'll tell you what's going to happen.

This update is only going to decrease the number of chances any one person/group has at Black Belt items if that person/group is consistently claiming NQ/HQ HNMs. Now here's the kicker: If a group is consistently claiming NQ/HQ HNMs, they should honestly be capped on Black Belt items anyways. If you are not consistently claiming NQ/HQ HNMs, and thus still need Black Belt items, this update does not negatively affect you. You are not losing an opportunity to get a Black Belt item if you are not able to claim to begin with.

Furthermore, this update significantly increases the amount of total HNMs/Black Belt items popped and obtained on a server-wide scale.

I don't need to hear about how "Getting KS is hard". It's not. I absolutely cannot believe that someone who takes pride in their Relic, while scorning players who get Empyrean Weapons in short order, is so positively averse to anything that requires even the slightest amount of time to accomplish. This was the same complaint you had about Magian Trials too and it's absolutely ridiculous. If these forums existed when the game was first launched, I would honestly not have been surprised to see you posting in every single thread about how Yoichinoyumi takes "too much currency", "is too expensive", and "requires too much time to obtain".

I also don't want to hear about how "Everyone is going to just spam Dring". That's Pchan bullcrap which just assumes no one has any friends. Given the absolutely massive number of people freaking out in General Discussion, in the Gameplay forums, and in the Monk forums, I swear there really ought to be plenty of people to team up with for all 3 Kings. Even around people who don't need Black Belt, I honestly do feel a bit bad if so many people don't have even a single friend who would be willing to give them their 99 KS to help with their Black Belt. My friends and I do similar shit all the time, it's really not a foreign concept (in fact, it must be a domestic concept if Pchan can't grasp it).

Thank you GreatGuardian for posting this in coherent terms. I actually enjoy old content, so if anyone is in need on bismarck for ppl for a ksnm send me a /tell- hell half the time I am just sitting bored in port Jeuno til event anyways or fishing lol.

I'm glad I still had 1500 KS and was too lazy to spend them because gil had become obsolete. Now if I get a Dring through the new system I'll be the ultimate troll by having 2 on the same account, and thanks to the Dbox changes I won't even have to walk a level 5 taru to BD to do it. What a boss update!

I don't get how people can complain when the drop rates aren't known at all. How many non-mule chars are there on the average server? Let's say there is 5000 until someone corrects me, and each one farms up a measly 5 KS a week, you know, accidentally while questing or doing a bit of trials. Assuming all seals will eventually be popped before ban/ragequit, even if they made KS99 always drop only 1 NQ pop (instead of the "at least 1" SE posted), made the NQ drop the HQ pop only 10% of the time, and made the BB item's drop rate only 10%, the new system's HQ pops would ultimately be adding two and a half BB items per week, that's what, maybe 1/3 to 1/2 of what the current system's NQ+HQ NMs are adding? That's with NOONE FARMING KS. It's easy to see how in reality even with totally butchered drop rates there will be much more BB items added than now. The only problem is that given a rational community nearly all of it will be tongues, but hey, at least those will eventually be obtainable for free. Ratonality aside, there are bound to be completionists going for Ridills (hell, it may even become upgradable) and they will probably cap out on beards before Ridills (unless the pop item/BB drop rates are as low as in my example above). Worst case scenario, MNKs&friends just have to "waste" a few KB shots on turtles and the beard is more expensive than now. Tongues will eventually be free in any case.

This only really hurts people who were first on Dring for a very long time, but they'll find things to level or farm instead of crying about it. Besides, still wanting this thing badly after twilight torque and dark rings is a bit OCD. I don't even think the people who spent all their KS got hit that hard. After all, they had plenty of time to spam wyrms while speed belts were still crazy expensive.

All I see is 20-mainjobbers QQing they'll have a few shots less at the ring if they want to ungimp MNK. Let me ask you this: if you really care about MNK but you ran out of jobs to level outside abyssea AND ran out of crafts you could speed up with farming, how did you even get to that point without sparing the 2-6M to just buy whichever items you never got from your KS? If you're generally burned out on repeatedly farming weak mobs, be it for KS or events, why even play this game anymore? Most events are all about farming. Besides, there are so many people who will pay for soloable gear/seals/empy items that some of you could have payed for all 3 items in the time you spent posting about this.

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Originally Posted by Rambus

read the update notes , makes bb items harder to get

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it makes it harder for people who can keep and use HNM ToD (not everybody can) and bring enough people to kill em (1THF for NQ if want to see item, 6-18 for hq, can been done with less by good players but most of em already have BB items)

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Originally Posted by SNK

That's funny because in the KS99s I did a long time ago I saw 7 eggs out of 14 pops. It's all about luck and that's it. Btw you still didn't answer why you spent 5 years in Dynamis to make a yoichi and yet you couldn't have bothered to camp NQ turtle in all that time as well.

New system is better for most everyone because it offers a fair chance to fight Kings vs only one Linkshel botting for claim.

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because rng or sam don't need BB and lol bandwagon mnk!


another point that have not been talken here is "synergize your old gears"
if synergi can add good augments on abju gear some people will farm em=> more peole that dont need BB will do KS=> easier for people who want to join a KS team

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

I don't need to hear about how "Getting KS is hard". It's not. I absolutely cannot believe that someone who takes pride in their Relic, while scorning players who get Empyrean Weapons in short order, is so positively averse to anything that requires even the slightest amount of time to accomplish. This was the same complaint you had about Magian Trials too and it's absolutely ridiculous. If these forums existed when the game was first launched, I would honestly not have been surprised to see you posting in every single thread about how Yoichinoyumi takes "too much currency", "is too expensive", and "requires too much time to obtain".

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Seriously this in a nutshell. How can you sit there and cry so hard Rambus about this update when you worked on a Relic which took you five years to finish and now all of a sudden you're camping an Egg? You should have had it ages ago with as much time as you invested into your relic, you could have had the egg easily and in much damn less time if you honestly gave a damn about going after it in all this time.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

I'm still sorta in awe of this whole "KSNM drop rates are toooo looooow" stuff. I've done plenty of KS99, and I could just as easily say I've had a 100% drop rate for BB items (it's more like 50-75% really, I've never had a problem seeing them). Is that unusually high? Definitely. But here's the thing (Shamelessly snipping this from another Poster in another thread): The plural of anecdote is not data..

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The drop rate is low and your post will not change this. Wiki is the only reliable source for this. Also you have never done those KS99, clearly. I fthe drop rate was that high I can tell you people would not QQ about having to camp dumb 24H-pop NMs.

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

The drop rate is low and your post will not change this. Wiki is the only reliable source for this. Also you have never done those KS99, clearly. I fthe drop rate was that high I can tell you people would not QQ about having to camp dumb 24H-pop NMs.

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People will QQ about anything.

A great example: this thread.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

I'm still sorta in awe of this whole "KSNM drop rates are toooo looooow" stuff. I've done plenty of KS99, and I could just as easily say I've had a 100% drop rate for BB items (it's more like 50-75% really, I've never had a problem seeing them

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you are lieing, lieing about drop rates does help get things changed. (if you are quoting egg from ksnm anyway)

Greatguardian is just trolling because he is not allowed on BG. Anyway, stock pile KS99 is all I can advice you all because we are back to "hard" game.

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

Greatguardian is just trolling because he is not allowed on BG. Anyway, stock pile KS99 is all I can advice you all because we are back to "hard" game.

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Again, weren't you the one banned from BG? lol

Just to clarify some questions that have been popping up regarding these adjustments, KSNM99 BCs will continue to drop black belt-related quest items.

Also, another bit of important information you might like to know, the triggers needed to spawn Fafnir/Behemoth/Adamantoise will be tradeable.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Just to clarify some questions that have been popping up regarding these adjustments, KSNM99 BCs will continue to drop black belt-related quest items.

Also, another bit of important information you might like to know, the triggers needed to spawn Fafnir/Behemoth/Adamantoise will be tradeable.

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Well I'm sure even with you saying this, alot of people will still complain about this. Can you confirm if the KS99 will drop more then 1 pop item for the NQ king?

Thanks for the info, Camate! Tradeable pops is total win in my book.

Tradable for the loss...

You might as well just let these people merc again -- the only thing you've gained now the emnity of the "We Want Bots" Society of America...

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Originally Posted by Starcade

Tradable for the loss...

You might as well just let these people merc again -- the only thing you've gained now the emnity of the "We Want Bots" Society of America...

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How does the ability to trade the pops to other ppl = bots?

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Originally Posted by Camate

Just to clarify some questions that have been popping up regarding these adjustments, KSNM99 BCs will continue to drop black belt-related quest items.

Also, another bit of important information you might like to know, the triggers needed to spawn Fafnir/Behemoth/Adamantoise will be tradeable.

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The old-school end-game community called. They want you to know that they don't care.

Please reverse this stupid change. :(

Thank you for the clarification.

Tradeable triggers nice... I'd imagine they would cost about as much as a sky trigger after a couple weeks

maybe 200k

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Originally Posted by Camate

Just to clarify some questions that have been popping up regarding these adjustments, KSNM99 BCs will continue to drop black belt-related quest items.

Also, another bit of important information you might like to know, the triggers needed to spawn Fafnir/Behemoth/Adamantoise will be tradeable.

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WOW! Good game sir.

Sky triggers repop every hour or two. 99 Kindred seals tend to take longer than that.

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Originally Posted by Flunklesnarkin

Tradeable triggers nice... I'd imagine they would cost about as much as a sky trigger after a couple weeks

maybe 200k

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now this is just fantastic! as someone who couldn't care less about every single post complaining about the "hnm" pop system changes I love this. Hopefully, tradeable means bazaarable and I can start gouging those HNMLS people who've been monopolizing these spawns for most of a decade now. As someone rolling in KS it sounds like I've got a new $ maker!

Seriously, I've got about 1400 KS in storage now, and I've been throwing them away in the field for years when i farm on my beast to make room for the drops I do want. I usually come back with about 40 ks after every farming session, if I haven't tossed them. Now I have a reason not to toss them and a means of $ every 3 days in addition to my farm drops.

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Originally Posted by Khajit

Sky triggers repop every hour or two. 99 Kindred seals tend to take longer than that.

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There are also more people who are obtaining KS at the same time...

hardly anybody farms sky... anybody and everybody killing random non abyssea stuff gets kindred seals...

I'm just guessing the price.. its hardly scientific... but i seriously doubt triggers will be rare/expensive

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Originally Posted by Camate

Just to clarify some questions that have been popping up regarding these adjustments, KSNM99 BCs will continue to drop black belt-related quest items.

Also, another bit of important information you might like to know, the triggers needed to spawn Fafnir/Behemoth/Adamantoise will be tradeable.

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is there any plans to change the update notes based on what has been talked about here?

the change this opens up is allowing more people acesss D ring so meny people will do that route for that. from what I seen KSNM drops for BB items beard and tounge are really high (1 out of 2 or 3 on average)

but what is going to be done to counter the low drop rate for eggs?

After keeping up with the reading here are my thoughts.

I know most have said that Kindred's seals are easy to farm. That depends on luck though. After leveling 5 jobs the old school way and solo I (and this is just an example of some peoples luck with these) was lucky to even have 99 seals. While i camped my Adi/Aspi I also killed stuff for Kindred seals since I was going to do KS99 for my beard. 3 hours of camping got me about 5-9 seals. Some of us are just not as lucky as others with these seals.

Camping wise, and i mean the 3 hour camps of NQ/HQ, I will agree it's time consuming but at least you have the shot. Now this camping is also not from the days when kings were heavily camped. This is from recently. KB i got lucky he popped and I happened to be there and have friends online after only camping for 2 days. After KB I headed to Faf/Nid which I found to be heavily camped. So I moved onto Adi/Aspi. Spent about a month there, 1 week before the shutdowns and 2 week after that. It was frustrating to camp the Adi's and have Aspi pop and be claimed by someone else lol. But I stuck to it.

Now to say that these NM's are hard to get I do understand. But you still had the 2 shots at the BB item ether way. That is of course if you had the seals. Which is why I choose to do just the Faffy KSNM 99. I didn't have an abundance of seals. Then again I am pretty stubborn and focused when I am trying to get something done.

Here is how I see this update.

HNM Kings yes its only going to benefit 1 group per day. But the camps are far less flooded then they used to be. And you still had the 2 shots because of KSNM 99.

Seals wise some are luckier then others when getting these so yea you still get the 2 shots at it, but not everyone will be getting all these same shots as others. For some people the seals are just harder to get.

Ok soooo here it my break down for what I see from this update.

Farm 99 seals (depending on the persons luck with them this could take a few hours or a few weeks).
Do KSNM 99 (Get a shot at the BB item and also get a NQ pop item I'd say so far s good)
Use your NQ pop (No chance at BB item, and since we don't know what the drop rate of the HQ pop item is its hard to say if this is a good thing or not.)
Now let's say you didn't get the HQ pop item its back to step 1 and keep repeating the first 3 steps until you get HQ pop item. Let's say you go this route 3-4 times (just for examples sake) at this point you have used 297-396 seals (this is just for 1 person btw)
OK now you have your HQ pop item YAY!!! so we pop HQ. (The drop rate has been lowered and to what we don't know. But here is where I see issues. People have now spent those 297-396 seals and lets say that the NQ doesn't drop the BB item. Back to step 1 ; ;. Here is where I think that HQ's drop rate should stay 100% after all that work you should have something for all these efforts. But this also depends on what the drop rates will be lowered to.)

Ok now repeat process for all 3 Kings. To me this is far more time spent then just camping for a few hours a day. But I do have a friend that thinks this is a good thing because he wants Riddil (if this is not spelled right then sorry I can't spell most of the time anyway lol)

I am not saying that the Force pop isn't a good idea what I am saying is that spending all of these seals to get nothing for months on end is a bit much. Please keep in mind that this is based on just one person's seals and I think that maybe I have been on the short side as far as the saying just the 3-4 HQ pop items not dropping. It could be far more or less. :)

But if you take into account that this 1 person has say 6 friends this and you do this pop a few times assuming that the friends have lots of seals as well, 2-3/6 pops gives you HQ pop item and lets say that these Pops don't drop the item your after you would still be going through a lot of seals.

In short I think this is way more time consuming then just going and camping lol. and sorry for the wall of text :).

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Originally Posted by Camate

Just to clarify some questions that have been popping up regarding these adjustments, KSNM99 BCs will continue to drop black belt-related quest items.

Also, another bit of important information you might like to know, the triggers needed to spawn Fafnir/Behemoth/Adamantoise will be tradeable.

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Well played SE, *golf clap*

I think your opinion is a bit misleading kindra.. on average it will be less time consuming for players with the new system..

Old system was completely based on luck for claiming ( or maybe not luck because lots of people used bots >_>)

It left a lot of people out and for those people it certainly wasn't less time consuming.

Either way black belt is suppose to be semi rare... This seems like a compromise between accessibility to the NM's that drop the items and keeping them semi-rare at the same time.

The only people this update negatively affects are people who were claiming the hnm's 90% of the time.

Here's the thing, kings aren't busy at the moment. They are so relatively easy to claim compared to a year and a half ago it's ridiculous. So, what does that mean? The congestion is already gone from the camps. So why change things now at this very late stage of the game unless they are expecting more pressure on these camps again?

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Originally Posted by blowfin

Here's the thing, kings aren't busy at the moment. They are so relatively easy to claim compared to a year and a half ago it's ridiculous. So, what does that mean? The congestion is already gone from the camps. So why change things now at this very late stage of the game unless they are expecting more pressure on these camps again?

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There is always the chance the abj gear will become really good though the synergy augment system. Of course, I have nothing to prove this point.

That may be the case with adamantoise currently but Behemoth tended to have 17~ people all CCing me on off days and when late in a KB window I'd see a large section of those old endgame ls still clinging to kings as if they're relevant so I guess me vs 20~30 bots at minimum(assuming only 1 of the old ls is there) not counting the misc people whom aren't in those old ls.

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Originally Posted by blowfin

Here's the thing, kings aren't busy at the moment. They are so relatively easy to claim compared to a year and a half ago it's ridiculous. So, what does that mean? The congestion is already gone from the camps. So why change things now at this very late stage of the game unless they are expecting more pressure on these camps again?

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ehh maybe on your server.. on siren they are still camped heavily.. even with an average of 700 people online at any given time during NA time


I'll use my previous example i tried to camp adamantoise 4 days in a row a couple weeks back.. so thats about 12 wasted hours.. also during retarded times of the day.. in which i never managed to get claim.

a fifth day of not getting claim wouldn't be unreasonable.. ive been outclaimed many times

so lets say about 15 hours wasted or round it up to 16 hours for the time it would have taken to arrive at the camp each day


During that time you could have spent 16 hours doing magian trials and getting kindred seals at the same time

so a seal drops once every 5 mins .. 50% chance beastmen or kindred so we could say a kindred seal drops about once every 10 mins on average

10 mins * 99 = 990 mins or 16.5 hours... so for anybody camping an hnm and isn't getting a claim more often than once every 5 days this system is far better

Which would seem to be most people at least on my server... the same people always claim the hnm's.. there is always one group who claims behemoth because they are camping Dring

So if for whatever reason you dont want to spend all that retarded time camping hnm's

every 5 days or so of doing random magian trials or exp in non-abyssea are for 2~3 hours a day.. you'd get a 99 orb

doesn't seem overly challenging.....

If thats the hardest part of getting a blackbelt these days i wouldn't complain

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Originally Posted by Flunklesnarkin

I think your opinion is a bit misleading kindra.. on average it will be less time consuming for players with the new system..

Old system was completely based on luck for claiming ( or maybe not luck because lots of people used bots >_>)

It left a lot of people out and for those people it certainly wasn't less time consuming.

Either way black belt is suppose to be semi rare... This seems like a compromise between accessibility to the NM's that drop the items and keeping them semi-rare at the same time.

The only people this update negatively affects are people who were claiming the hnm's 90% of the time.

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While I understand what your saying here I also see that the Kings are not being camped as much as they they used to be. Had this system been put into place when the kings were so heavily camped I think it would have been more excepted then it is being now. I do agree BB should be rare. But I took the time to camp mine the old way and in all honesty I got lucky that it only took me abut a month lol. I didn't have to compete with other MNKs for the BB items and I have friends that helped :).

I wasn't trying to be Misleading all I was doing is saying what I see. Basicly how I feel about it :). Not everyone will agree that is what makes us all Unique :)