On Red Mage melee...

I would think it would be possible have an enspell that inflects an enfeeble if that enfeeble isn't present on the monster and does damage instead if the monster already has that enfeeble.

Why would we get both damage and a utility in a neat package? That's asking for a bit too much, IMO.

The truth of the matter is our enspells archaic in design. They're completely out done by Haste Samba in every coneviable sense. You WOULD have to do upwards of +100-200 damage a hit to even compare with what +5% haste does for you in a build that isn't even maxed out on haste. And that's just subbing Dancer.

Having something like that + Doing what I picture EnPain doing as an enfeeble would be going a bit far.

But it's not as if a comprimise can't be made.

For exmaple, provide an ENSpell 3 line that does the upwards damage we're asking for. Then we can have EnPain be a guarenteed, short duration status effect. Both will grow in damage/potency over amount of rounds inflicted to a cap.

We'll have to actually choose between both of these assets, but we'll have them both available as utilities.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

Why would we get both damage and a utility in a neat package? That's asking for a bit too much, IMO.

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Depends entirely on how it's balanced. I mean sure if it hits for like 500 damage in addition to supplying a 100% paralyze then it is too much. Alternatively if it does 1 damage and provided a negligible enfeebling effect then clearly it's not enough.

There's most certainly a happy middle that damage and support can meet at.

This is mainly meant to be another idea.



I should comment on the uncapped damage scaling some more though. Certainly it could work. The biggest issue with that though is once something like that is introduced...well that's it. There's no more room for growth really and our way of damage becomes that sort of gimmick.

It's more or less the same thing that happened with Dark Knight where for a while the job became solely defined by Soul Eater. As soon as you find mobs where that one tactic doesn't work then the job becomes near worthless.

And the counter to enspells isn't all that rare. Anything with -MDT% would completely butcher our damage yet they can't exactly buff us because we already have the potential to obliterate other monsters HATE FREE.

It would also completely break Ceremonial Dagger solos like mentioned before.



Ultimately, I personally just don't like the idea as much. Too gimmicky and shallow. I mean ANYTHING can work if balanced properly (assuming it can be implemented in a reasonable amount of time and the system can handle it).

I mean sure it would potentially fix the job, but if you could choose anyway to fix Rdm would uncapped enspells really be your number one choice? I just feel that there are better solutions out there.

I can see a very small portion of damage in En:pain, just to prevent Additional Effect: Pain from spamming the screen.

But as far as uncapping Enspell damage. It was half serious. Truth be told we just need a higher cap, but the cap needs to be pretty darn high in comparison to what we have, double if not more than the current caps on Enspell II on average. +100 additional damage shouldn't be unreasonable considering what Damage Dealers are doing both in and out of abysses these days.

But, to be truthful, what about RDM isn't a gimmick? Sure, there's depth to the job, arguably more so than most others. But that's because it's layered gimmicks upon gimmicks. We're a walking bag of tricks as is. Having the ability to put mini-nukes on monsters via melee is just another one of them.

And I'm in Seriha's camp about flatly removing Ceremonial dagger, period. It servers no other purpose BUT to be abused.

Ceremonial Dagger has never been anything but a gimmick. There is no reason it should be a factor on our future. Any self-respecting RDM doesn't do that and we shouldn't be constrained by the worst players in the game. I don't think any of us would care if it disappeared from the game tomorrow.


I'm still pointing out that you guys aren't making a very conclusive picture about how you want enspells and enfeebles married.

Are you looking for traits, spells, or job abilities?

Are these to be built off of existing enspells or are we looking at another tier?

If you want to add enfeebles to current Enspell 2s it might actually make them decent. You just attach an enfeeble to every enspell.

Fire > Addle
Water > Poison
Wind > is either Silence or Gravity
Earth > Slow or Break
Ice > Bind or Paralyze
Thunder > Stun (even though we can only stun with shock spikes)

Please express your ideas in a way that people can actually discuss them. I haven't seen anything clear in the last 3 or 4 pages.

Ideally a trait 50+ that then carries over to all Enspells. SCHs could still Accession, but then our T1s would be better in our hands.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Seriha

Ideally a trait 50+ that then carries over to all Enspells. SCHs could still Accession, but then our T1s would be better in our hands.

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I genuinely have no idea why RDM still doesn't have a trait that enhances it's enspells.

i think, me and hyrist anyway, are talking about a new enspell that would inflict dmg (in some negotiable amount), and a new status ailment that was effectively every, or most, status ailments rolled into one. (at some negotiable potency)


the idea being to reduce or remove the casting burden of enfeebs against most mobs, while at the same time rewarding meleeing.


damage and potency are of course negotiable, but as a high level spell i see no reason for this to not completely obsolete lower tier enspells. who cares if rdms aren't using a lvl 15 spell anymore. whens the last time you saw a lvl 90 blm cast fire1? or a lvl 90 whm casting cure2?

i suggest dmg be at enspell2 lvls or higher, calculated on cast.. not swing, and unrestricted to first swing only. as for potency, somewhere in the range of 1 tier below max. so dia/bio2 slow/para/blind1


i'd use it.

If the damage isn't going to substantially better than what we get right now, how about make the potency of the enfeebles the same as 1/5 of each of our tier 2 merits? That way we choose which ones we want stronger than base line and can override them with stronger versions of them.

You make the choice to use the debuff enspell and you make the choice about what higher level enfeebles you merit.

It's win/win and fixes a lot of problems.

As far as Enpain goes, I'm very particular as to what status effects would pretty much go on it.

Paralyze, Slow, Blind, Addle, and possibly a TP version of Addle.

There's a very important reasoning for this: These are all 'passive' debuffs. Meaning they do not actively prevent action, but rather hamper it.

Let's look at the problems with other debuffs we have.

Dia/Bio/Poison: DoTs, they prevent sleep meaning it would make it difficult to disengage.

Silence/Petrify: They outright prevent actions from taking place and would have to occur on a 'chance' basis. Not a good thing to use as a reliable melee utility.

As far as what degrees of the spell functions at, I'm still in favor of the idea 'increase potency over time'. The actual degrees of these of course would be variable, but stackable with the origonal spells.

So say, with a total of 10 attack rounds equating full stacks. Have it scale say, 1% slow per round (to 10% slow) 2% Paralyze rate per round(to 20% total paralysis chance) -2 accuracy (totaling -20 Accuracy) 2% increase casting time , and 2% increased TP attack use time. ALL at once, all stack-able with their originals. As a whole, the full 10 stacks will be quite powerful. But when you pair them with their corresponding debuffs (especially with use of saboteur) they would be incredible, because it would tip many abilities near the breaking point.

For example: Full stacks on Enpain + Fully Merited Saboteur Slow II can potentially reach 90% Slow. Now imagine if you stack the remaining tier 2s on something like that, as well as Addle, and hopefully a TP attack debuff. You will have crushed the effectiveness of the monster.

Now this doesn't help in incredibly fast mob kills, but also leaves room for us to have a normal Enspell III line that just does normal damage boosts for those situations. So long as we can't have both up at once.

Okay, I don't like touching RDM melee, Its a taboo, But truthfully even if it never becomes main-stream its always nice to imagine, right? Not that I would cry one way or the other.


---------------------
Job Traits
RDM30 - "Combat Wisdom" (this is my favorite Idea)
Tiers-30/50/70/90/99
*Raises Enspell Damage, Increases Stats based on Current Enspell
**Raises Enspell Damage by 3 Points per stage. Increases Stat Related to Element by 5 Each Stage. (i.E Enfire gives STR+5, Enthunder gives DEX+5, This would make Enspells useful even not in combat, Say cast En-water on yourself for a MND boost for debuff Potency, or EN-blizzard for Nuke Potency, Even if you're using Staff/what-have-you!. This adds a new level of uses for Enspells. Even if you're not meleeing!)


RDM55 "Swordsmanship"
Tiers 55/70/95
*Increases Attack, Critical hit Rate, and Critical hit Damage when wielding a Sword.
**Increases Attack by 5, Critical hit Rate by 3%, and Critical hit Damage by 3% per level.
***PLD would get this too at a lower level.

RDM55 - "Dagger mastery"
teirs 55/70/95
*Increases Attack, Critical hit Rate, Critical hit Damage when wielding a Dagger.
**Increases Attack by 5, Critical hit Rate by 3%, and Critical hit Damage by 3% per level.
***THF would get this too at Lower Levels (15/30/45/60/75/90). and DNC. (35/60/85)

--------------------------------------------------------
Job Abilities

RDM:55
"Magic Fencer"
*Increases Accuracy and Attack in proportion to Enspell damage. Extends Duration of Enspells. Enspells effects by Magic Attack Bonus
**Every 2 Damage your spell does = 1 Acc. Caculated by Base damage before Resists. (I.E if your spells would do 30 dmg before resist, you get +15acc/atk. regardless of spell being resisted)
**Increases enspell Duration by 50%. Stacks with other Buffs.
**Self-Explanitory
---------------------
Magic

Enspell Teir III!
*Deals Elemental damage. Deals a Set damage of 30dmg/swing. Enhancing Magic for these spells now occasionally Augments the spells to do Double Damage. Capped enhanced gives you about a 5% Chance to "Double Damage". Works on all hits. Every 10 Points of Enhancing Magic pas cap gives an additional "2%" chance to increase damage.

----------------------------------------------


And I'm done. really.

Can't say i realistically expecting anything above me to be implemented (bar maybe the very first idea), but at the same time, I'm not a giant RDM melee enthusiast, I think it has some places, But i also think FFXI seems to have made itself clear it doesn't care too much about that aspect of RDM (empyrean-hello -.-)

I like RDM how it is, I would welcome any improvement they gave us.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Job Traits
RDM30 - "Combat Wisdom" (this is my favorite Idea)
Tiers-30/50/70/90/99
*Raises Enspell Damage, Increases Stats based on Current Enspell
**Raises Enspell Damage by 3 Points per stage. Increases Stat Related to Element by 5 Each Stage. (i.E Enfire gives STR+5, Enthunder gives DEX+5, This would make Enspells useful even not in combat, Say cast En-water on yourself for a MND boost for debuff Potency, or EN-blizzard for Nuke Potency, Even if you're using Staff/what-have-you!. This adds a new level of uses for Enspells. Even if you're not meleeing!)

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Well 2 issues I can think of with this though they aren't very large issues.

First, this would pretty much only make a handful of elements useful. I mean who would ever use Enstone if it gives a VIt bonus.

Second, this just seems like Gain spell 2.0 that stack.

Taking this in a slightly different direction I might be up for a mix between this and one of Seriha's ideas where instead of the enspell increasing the base attribute it increasea the stat commonly associated with that attribute.

Earth: -DT%
Water: +MACC
Wind: +Subtle Blow
Fire: +ATK
Ice: +MATK
Thunder: +Crit

Now the numbers might need to be tossed around a bit as -25% PDT from just using enstone might be a bit much, but the numbers aren't as important as the ideas.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

RDM55 "Swordsmanship"
Tiers 55/70/95
*Increases Attack, Critical hit Rate, and Critical hit Damage when wielding a Sword.
**Increases Attack by 5, Critical hit Rate by 3%, and Critical hit Damage by 3% per level.
***PLD would get this too at a lower level.

RDM55 - "Dagger mastery"
teirs 55/70/95
*Increases Attack, Critical hit Rate, Critical hit Damage when wielding a Dagger.
**Increases Attack by 5, Critical hit Rate by 3%, and Critical hit Damage by 3% per level.
***THF would get this too at Lower Levels (15/30/45/60/75/90). and DNC. (35/60/85)

---

Oddly enough my biggest gripe with these are the tiers that you gave to other jobs. I mean with Thf getting 6 tiers of this trait they would have an innate +18% crit hit bonus and a +26% crit hit damage. The crit hit becomes +23% if they sub war. I mean are you trying to give Thf a perma Razed Ruin outside of abyssea XD

Also I know crit hits are awesome and everything and are the only things that matter in abyssea, but moving forward there is plenty of room for other types of damage to thrive. This really just seems like a slightly different version of Fencer. I mean this buff does seem to be more intended for the other jobs that receive it other then Rdm and that's fine, but I personally hope to see Rdm grow in a different direction then critical hit WS spam.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

RDM:55
"Magic Fencer"
*Increases Accuracy and Attack in proportion to Enspell damage. Extends Duration of Enspells. Enspells effects by Magic Attack Bonus
**Every 2 Damage your spell does = 1 Acc. Caculated by Base damage before Resists. (I.E if your spells would do 30 dmg before resist, you get +15acc/atk. regardless of spell being resisted)
**Increases enspell Duration by 50%. Stacks with other Buffs.
**Self-Explanitory

---

If they ever fixed the T2 enspells this would completely bust them though I get the impression you were planning to use them with the T3 versions mainly. The concept isn't bad and certainly has been tossed around where enspells should give stat bonuses (like Enlight and Endark), but these numbers might be a tad too high.

Other then that though I like it and hate it at the same time. It's certainly nice to get an attack and accuracy bonus from the enspells, but at the same time if there weren't enough Teal meleeing Rdms before there certainly will be now D: . There just aren't that many slots that we can afford to give up haste for more MAB.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Enspell Teir III!
*Deals Elemental damage. Deals a Set damage of 30dmg/swing. Enhancing Magic for these spells now occasionally Augments the spells to do Double Damage. Capped enhanced gives you about a 5% Chance to "Double Damage". Works on all hits. Every 10 Points of Enhancing Magic pas cap gives an additional "2%" chance to increase damage.

---

I think these might do slightly more then you expect. 30 + your JA that adds 15 + Fencer ring (5) + Hollow (3) = 53 enspell per hit. That gives +26 attack and accuracy with your last JA in addition to that number being affected by MAB (+28 MAB minimum).

In addition we can currently get ~+90 enhancing magic giving it a +23% chance to double its damage.

This would give it something like an average of 81 damage per attack round...That's...a lot.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Supersun

Well 2 issues I can think of with this though they aren't very large issues.

First, this would pretty much only make a handful of elements useful. I mean who would ever use Enstone if it gives a VIt bonus.

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Well, More or less Resist Rates, Even if Enfire gave STR+25, You wouldn't use it on a Fire-Strong mob, The 25STR would not make up for the horrible loss in DoT for Enspell damage. That was my thoughts though. Honestly you can't make all Enspells useful, Even if you do like the "DT" thing you meantioned for Enstone, Most RDMs will default to Enstone simply to keep themselves alive, and to hell with their DoT, now the full Teal RDMs will be pumping out 2-dmg Enstone hits just so they don't die as fast?

Also, (This is below) about the "Gain Spell 2.0", Theres similarities between a lot of things in this game. Off the top of my head, Berserk and Last Resort. BRD song set bonus increases Stats pertaining to the songs element too (Stacks with Gain spells!)

Quote:

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Second, this just seems like Gain spell 2.0 that stack.

Taking this in a slightly different direction I might be up for a mix between this and one of Seriha's ideas where instead of the enspell increasing the base attribute it increasea the stat commonly associated with that attribute.

Earth: -DT%
Water: +MACC
Wind: +Subtle Blow
Fire: +ATK
Ice: +MATK
Thunder: +Crit

---

This is nice, I think Enthunder/Enstone would be the "ones used" most often in this set. Obv Enblizzard for Nuking (but then Again my idea would be about the same...) Wind would be used least often/never in that scenario. (same in mine!)

Sometimes its not about trying the best to give everything a use, But "balancing" it into simple, fair catagories. +? to stats would seem basic. In or outside Abyssea, +~30 to a Stat isn't going to make RDM overpowered, If anything, It will slightly level the playing field.

Quote:

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Now the numbers might need to be tossed around a bit as -25% PDT from just using enstone might be a bit much, but the numbers aren't as important as the ideas.

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I agree, Numbers are generally thought up on the spot, Rarely thought goes into them (i explain that below on the whole "THF" thing you mentioned)


[quote](1)Oddly enough my biggest gripe with these are the tiers that you gave to other jobs. I mean with Thf getting 6 tiers of this trait they would have an innate +18% crit hit bonus and a +26% crit hit damage. The crit hit becomes +23% if they sub war. I mean are you trying to give Thf a perma Razed Ruin outside of abyssea XD

(2)Also I know crit hits are awesome and everything and are the only things that matter in abyssea, but moving forward there is plenty of room for other types of damage to thrive. This really just seems like a slightly different version of Fencer. I mean this buff does seem to be more intended for the other jobs that receive it other then Rdm and that's fine, but I personally hope to see Rdm grow in a different direction then critical hit WS spam.[quote]

(I'm breaking this up for my good, Not in a mocking way)

1) Yah, Like i said above >__> Rarely think out the numbers. Realistically I've always figured THF should be king of Criticals. I go overboard. Either way, RDM is basically "okay" at sword/Dagger, Its not the best at them (PLD and THF are respectively) so obviously it would get less tiers of the Sword/Dagger heavy Traits, but i feel they still deserve them. Ignoring the THF/PLD part, I think These aren't horrible... Maybe a little.

2) Critical hit rate and damage are still the best things ever, short of haste. Outside abyssea they're as good as inside. And if you think about it, Chant du Cygne and Vorpal blade are RDM's strongest Weaponskills, both heavily influenced by Critical hit Rate and Damage. While yes, Inside abyssea Critical hit rate/dmg is much more ... "big"? I don't know a word for it... Anyway, Given the same buffs, They're as good outside as Inside. I don't want perma RR (Yay not thinking things out D:!) but the best way to improve your DoT, other than haste and obv Dbl/trpl attack, is acc/atk and Crit hit rate/dmg.

I expect a haste job trait would be asking entirely too much, same for Dbl/trpl attack, So I figure the next best step is Crit/Acc/atk.

Quote:

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If they ever fixed the T2 enspells this would completely bust them though I get the impression you were planning to use them with the T3 versions mainly. The concept isn't bad and certainly has been tossed around where enspells should give stat bonuses (like Enlight and Endark), but these numbers might be a tad too high.

Other then that though I like it and hate it at the same time. It's certainly nice to get an attack and accuracy bonus from the enspells, but at the same time if there weren't enough Teal meleeing Rdms before there certainly will be now D: . There just aren't that many slots that we can afford to give up haste for more MAB.

---

I honestly completely gave up on them Fixing Teir II Enspells. So i assume they're dead and suck. I agree numbers may be too high, again, The ideas are where i thrive, balancing them with Proper numbers i fail miserably.

Secondly, Its more of a balancing Act, you obviously want full Haste, but at the same time, your Natural MAB Job traits will help on Enspell damage. You dont necessarily need to "MAB Build" around it, Just your traits would take effect for it. Its like adding a small free-bonus.

Quote:

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I think these might do slightly more then you expect. 30 + your JA that adds 15 + Fencer ring (5) + Hollow (3) = 53 enspell per hit. That gives +26 attack and accuracy with your last JA in addition to that number being affected by MAB (+28 MAB minimum).

In addition we can currently get ~+90 enhancing magic giving it a +23% chance to double its damage.

This would give it something like an average of 81 damage per attack round...That's...a lot.

---

Actually these i actually anticipated quite well. I should have mentioned some things though.

I was taking into account Using Enspells means we lose Haste Samba, Thats 10% haste (Merits? its 10 right?) Right out the window. Thats alot to make up for. So these need to be omg good.

I imagine the Enhancing magic buff would be just like Enspells II, based on when the hits land, Not when you cast, So you wouldn't be doing 28% Dbl Damage unless you full timed all your Enhancing magic gear (you'd loose so much haste it wouldn't be worth it), Basically its another one of those "Free Bonuses" (enhancing magic merits >____>? lol idk) that you could use, but might not.

53 DMG enspells (well, Probably closer to 60) wouldn't be horrible, the PLD/DRK ones do 60 from start with Woeborn/Honorbound (and degrade admitidely), but each of those offer atk/acc equal to the damage dealt (+60 each degrading over hits).

RDM is suppose to be better at Enspells than those, Giving them a high-damaging Helpful ability (even giving them just half acc/atk as opposed to full from PLD/DRK ones) would be ideal.

I probably missed some points :| if i did repeat them D: I'll check back laterz

The Subtle Blow+ on Enaero spells was actually a nod toward allowing RDMs to swing on more difficult stuff. I know, taboo, they're retards, whatever, but if they're already /NIN and can stack SB up to NIN-like levels, with perhaps a dash of Gain-AGI for more SB through AGI calculations, the whole TP feed argument of old loses some steam and you get some supplementary damage on top. How much will obviously depend on the RDM's gear, the mob, and other factors, but it's mainly a step toward quelling the GTFO mentality.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

lotsa stuff

---

i like it, but i agree that it needs some hammering out.

as discussed, exclusive buffs per enspell lock you into certain enspells. i like the idea of adding att/acc relative to enspell across the board, but i dislike enspell specific buffs.

as for dagger mastery, could mitigate the issue for thf by giving a 3/3/4 instead of 3/3/6. or, give both traits more magicy names and remove thf from the list. (maybe let pld and dnc keep them cuz there also quasi-"magic" jobs) might piss the thfs off but who cares, i had to watch bst get fencer >.>

You guys are pushing some incredibly low numbers on Enspells. It's kind of disheartening.

50 Damage enspells is nothing compared to 5-10% haste. (See the Haste Thread for an example of why it is.)

Provided cap gear haste: Going from 40% haste to 45% is a 9% increase in overall damage. If we're going to inflcit damage that's compariable to loosing 9% TOTAL damage (including WS damage due to WS frequency.) Then we're going to need an enspell that's more potent than Haste Samba.

This is just to EQUATE Haste Samba. Not even regarding our damage issues alone. If we're looking for increased damage potential, we need to get comfortable with the idea that our enspell damage should hit around 100 additional damage unresisted per hit. Either that or it needs to mimic the attack bonuses gaine in En-dark, without the decay, and still be at the +60-70 range.

If you are trying to make an enspell to match haste samba then you'll likely "break" /nin even more since /nin already does more damage then /dnc.

I think a better way instead of cranking enspells to like 200 a hit would be to find a way that we can gain the benefit of a sanba and an enspell at the same time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Doombringer

i like it, but i agree that it needs some hammering out.

as discussed, exclusive buffs per enspell lock you into certain enspells. i like the idea of adding att/acc relative to enspell across the board, but i dislike enspell specific buffs.

as for dagger mastery, could mitigate the issue for thf by giving a 3/3/4 instead of 3/3/6. or, give both traits more magicy names and remove thf from the list. (maybe let pld and dnc keep them cuz there also quasi-"magic" jobs) might piss the thfs off but who cares, i had to watch bst get fencer >.>

---

I had considered, for Dagger Mastery, Traits would be more like 5 initial, +2 to each, This way, even at level 6, it would only be +15. but RDM would only get +9, which isn't bad.

Either way, We also need to consider Evisceration, Chant du Cygne, and Vorpal(where applicable) are RDMs best DD Weaponskills. So while Crit hit rate/dmg may be seen as "ABYSSEA ONRY", Its actually quite powerful in or out. Take Impetus for example, with MNK Body, It increases attack, Critical hit rate and dmg(Ithinklol;;) with each hit, to the point, accuracy baring, it is like a perma RR XD. Which makes it really quite powerful.

Okay, So now given a few moments to refine some things, How about narrowing it down too.... this-

------------------------------
JA
Dagger Mastery
RDM50 - (65/80/95)
Increases Critical hit rate and attack when wielding a Dagger.
(+5 Initial Level, +2 Each after)

Swordsmanship
RDM50 - (65/80/95)
Increases Attack and Critical hit Damage when wielding a Sword.
(+5 Initial Level, +2 Each after)

Job Traits
RDM30 - "Combat Wisdom"
Tiers-30/50/70/90
*Raises Enspell Damage. Increases Accuracy and Magic Accuracy when Enspells are active.
*Increases Enspell Damage by 3, Accuracy and Magic Accuracy by 5 for first level. +3 and +3 Each after.

--------------------------------
JA-
RDM:55
"Magic Fencer"
Increases Accuracy and Attack speed in proportion to Enspell damage. Extends Duration of Enspells. Enspells effects by Magic Attack Bonus
*Accuracy gained is exactly half of Enspell Damage before resists.
*Attack speed is based on Enspell Level. (-4% for enspell 1, -7% for Enspell II, -10% for Enspell III)

--------------
MA

Enspell III
RDM 89, 91, 93, 95 ,97 ,99
*Enspells deal a set base damage of 30 a hit. Enhancing Magic skill will occasionally Augment Enspell damage to do 1.5x normal. Has a base chance of procing of 3%. Each 100 Enhancing magic skill adds another 1%. (i.e, at 90, our base Enhancing magic is around 300, So it'd be 6% Chance total).

--------------------------

Some optional things, Maybe an ability that makes your next enspell have an Aura. (Basically, Enfire would grant an AoE attack boost?), Though This might take usefulness away from using the right spell if you're in a party though, because you may be asked for Attack boost (Enfire) on a mob that Isn't exactly fire-friendly, Either way, RDM is a great buffer still, something like an Aura to Enspells at a short range might make meleeing on RDM a bit less unbearable too.

It would be a low level JA, Probably 30 or so. and the buff would be based on the Spell Tier. Like so-

"Mystic Aura"
recast:1min Dur:Next Enspell
*Grants an "Aura" bonus based on Enspell level and type.
*"Enfire" would give your party +5% Attack.
*"Enfire II" would give your party +7% Attack.
*"Enignis" would give your party +10% Attack.
(Numbers need some fixing)

The only problem with the above ability, some Spells might not get great uses, or you may be asked to use an inferior enspell (Like say, Enfire on a fire resistant mob) simply to give your party an attack boost. Some buffs might not be great comparatively too. Enwater might just give Macc, Enblizzard Matk, etc.

However, Sometimes we have to consider taking a hit like that to get a decent bonus.

(Numbers may need some refining) (Giving an Ability that grants an attack speed inrease with Enspells active (for RDM only) removes the "Haste samba" problem. Since it would be almost impossible to make up for that amount of damage lost)

I'd actually debate that unless you have CDC that outside of abyssea AE and Sanguine Blade are better then Eviceration and Vorpal on Rdm respectively. (I hit a 1.1k AE with /Sch the other day in Rolanberry)

I mean I've mentioned this before but one of the easiest ways of bridging the gap for Rdm damage is to give us a powerful native elemental WS. I mean if we had Sanguine natively I'd debate that dual wielding OaX swords and spamming it would beat out just about anything except maybe CDC (outside of abyssea).

This is more a nitpick for if they actually do give us a good native elemental WS on sword otherwise your point still stands tall that crits are amazing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Supersun

I'd actually debate that unless you have CDC that outside of abyssea AE and Sanguine Blade are better then Eviceration and Vorpal on Rdm respectively. (I hit a 1.1k AE with /Sch the other day in Rolanberry)

I mean I've mentioned this before but one of the easiest ways of bridging the gap for Rdm damage is to give us a powerful native elemental WS. I mean if we had Sanguine natively I'd debate that dual wielding OaX swords and spamming it would beat out just about anything except maybe CDC (outside of abyssea).

This is more a nitpick for if they actually do give us a good native elemental WS on sword otherwise your point still stands tall that crits are amazing.

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Well, If it worked out like Primal Rend (Which was i think the only worthwhile Elemental WS ever, although its not much of a shiner today), I could see it being useful.

I don't think we'll be seeing new Weaponskills however... Although, If they just gave RDM sanguine blade Naturally it could be have some decent uses.

Realistically however, if with your best buffs/WS gear, It would still be painfully weak compared to what other DD can do. But if stacked with strong supportive buffs like the ones i listed above, stronger Enspell damage, etc... It could level the playing field a bit.

really though... Its probably doubtful RDM will get anything Melee related mostly due to how the general community would react. I think its too late in RDMs game for SE to consider adjustments like this. Even if they did come out and boost RDM melee proficiency, people would complain they didnt get a "Real update". (Cause lets face it, people are whiners. So am i though, FU Collaborater range improvement).

Thats the biggest problem to solve it seems..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Well, If it worked out like Primal Rend (Which was i think the only worthwhile Elemental WS ever, although its not much of a shiner today), I could see it being useful.

I don't think we'll be seeing new Weaponskills however... Although, If they just gave RDM sanguine blade Naturally it could be have some decent uses.

Realistically however, if with your best buffs/WS gear, It would still be painfully weak compared to what other DD can do. But if stacked with strong supportive buffs like the ones i listed above, stronger Enspell damage, etc... It could level the playing field a bit.

really though... Its probably doubtful RDM will get anything Melee related mostly due to how the general community would react. I think its too late in RDMs game for SE to consider adjustments like this. Even if they did come out and boost RDM melee proficiency, people would complain they didnt get a "Real update". (Cause lets face it, people are whiners. So am i though, FU Collaborater range improvement).

Thats the biggest problem to solve it seems..

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SE wont give RDM anything melee wise due to one reason, as the developer said before: RDM is kind of powerful as it is.

Now while no one else believes it is, and even the audience chuckled when he said that. The developers seem to think it is, so RDM will get little to nothing by the time we reach lvl.99.

And when that happens, RDM will become a dead job. :(

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher

SE wont give RDM anything melee wise due to one reason, as the developer said before: RDM is kind of powerful as it is.

Now while no one else believes it is, and even the audience chuckled when he said that. The developers seem to think it is, so RDM will get little to nothing by the time we reach lvl.99.

And when that happens, RDM will become a dead job. :(

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That was like 3 years ago iirc and when that statement was made it was certainly true.

3 years, 2 dev teams, 9 mini-expansions, and 15 levels later things have changed.
I'd be silly of them to go off what they said at fanfest now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Well, If it worked out like Primal Rend (Which was i think the only worthwhile Elemental WS ever)

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Wildfire

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Supersun

That was like 3 years ago iirc and when that statement was made it was certainly true.

3 years, 2 dev teams, 9 mini-expansions, and 15 levels later things have changed.
I'd be silly of them to go off what they said at fanfest now.

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I suppose, though the most recent update we had on them was 2010:

Quote:

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We intend to ensure that red mages maintain the prominent position they currently enjoy, while closely monitoring their balance with other magic-wielding jobs.
For example, the level cap increase will render both “Convert” and “Refresh” usable by support jobs. If this gives red mages more free time in their parties, we will find ways for them to fill that time productively. If this threatens to deprive the job of its uniqueness, however, we will make sure to cover for this in other areas.

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They've not really stuck to that either!

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I'd love to Melee on RDM if it was worth it, but I really do wonder in what direction the dev's are going with RDM. It's very confusing.

I'd still like to see a null-elemental WS that changes its element and skillchain properties based on your current enspell. Ideally it should do more than Sanguine Blade since it wouldn't have the curative property attached and it would allow us to adapt the element to the mob in question since, unlike SB, you wouldn't be stuck with a shitty darkness WS on darkness resistant mobs. We could then do an atma build like RR/Beyond/MM and still be generally proficient with an ice WS that could ideally break 2500 with an okay gear set. No, it's not Ukko's or Smite, but I don't think 40% or more of a scrub mob's HP is anything to scoff at. Plus it'd be amber over ruby, since people still have their ruby phobia.

Couple problems I see with that idea:

1. We'd never get beyond the level 1 skillchain properties unless we started gaining "Enfusion, Engravitation, Endistortion, etc." as new enspells. Which, admittedly, would be awesome. I'd love to have these instead of a simple tier 3. Otherwise though, the skillchain property variant on the WS would pretty much be worthless. (Unless we got Chainbind as a debuff, which would be a nice way to push a damage boost and allow us to follow up with a burst.)

2. Magic WSes, I don't belive, are subject to DA/TA, Crit, etc. Chances that help other classes push incredibly high spikes.

3. Resists. Without an appropriate skillset to use as a base accuracy comparison on elemental WSes, they tend to suck in general. Sure, with Atmas we could push those numbers high enough to be decent in Abyssea. But outside ,we're just going to lose out on the same root problems we have with WSes before.

Now granted, Elemental WSes would save us a bunch on gear swaps, as we could simply use our casting/Nuking gear to WS. But unless the tripping points are addressed, it'd wind up being a half-effort WS that's not all that much better than Sanguine Blade outside Abyssea, which isn't that impressive at all.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

not all that much better than Sanguine Blade outside Abyssea, which isn't that impressive at all.

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O.o...

Are you gearing for it correctly?

(I'll respond in more detail later)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Supersun

That was like 3 years ago iirc and when that statement was made it was certainly true.




Wildfire

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I'm quite aware of Wildfire it just slipped my mind :|.

So, if they give RDM a weaponskill natively with the same power and mods of Wildfire, an Empyrean WS, Elemental WS might actually work.

(because if i recall, Inside Abyssea Wildfire is only"good" when you stack MAB/FireMab Atmas, if a RDM did this, they'd severely nerf their Melee-TP Damage phase, Which is not a good trade off. If you're going to advocate RDM melee in abyssea, at least do it right and put on the DD Atmas, any combo of VV, RR, GH, Omni and Apoc. Stacking MAB atmas just for your WS, on a job that would be meleeing for TP, would not be a great idea.)

Still.... We probably wont get any new Weaponskills at all (Well, maybe at 400 skill level), But as is... From 75-80 we got 1 new WS from leveling up, 81-90 We got goose egg. I don't think they'll be giving us anymore from this point. (except Empyreans GAWD, I meant "By leveling up" anyway)

I've been surprised before though XD

That being said, I did quite like the idea of a WS that changes element based on the Current Enspell. however, have to remember even with Beyond/etc we beefed it up to 2,500, We're losing Massive amounts of Damage in the TP Phase by doing this, when we could likely just go full DD Atma and pump out Vorpals/Eviscer for around those numbers.

Its a tricky thing, Outside Abyssea, the Elemental WS would probably serve us better if it had good Acc and decent potency, because outside of abyssea RDM's WS aren't that amazing (chant excluded)

Well, I can't add much to this part of the discussion, since elemental WS are so dependent on gear that it wouldn't meet my requirement of "must enter the game at the same skill level BLU and PLD get vorpal blade". Still, I find it nice that someone from the outside is taking part on the discussion rather than just tell us we're doing it wrong. :O

Oh gosh. I wasn't trying to suggest that we get a weapon skill on the level of Wildfire. If SE did that Rdm would be kings of DD outside of abyssea.

But yeah, my vouching for a new elemental WS is more looking forward to 99 and content outside of abyssea. Our current critical WSs work fine for abyssea but like you mentioned we have garbage for options outside of abyssea with AE and Sanguine being our best 2 barring CDC imo.

I've always been a fan of the WS that changes element depending on your enspell. They don't even need to stray too far then what currently exists. 3.5-4 fTP with sanguine's dInt*2 and 30%-50% mods would be nice.

Certainly doesn't need to be 6 fTP with a 60% mof like wildfire lol.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Supersun

Certainly doesn't need to be 6 fTP with a 60% mof like wildfire lol.

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That'd be sexy though Amirite.

I would love another set of Job-Specific Weaponskills (like Mythic Weaponskills), but if we dont see them I won't pout.

Giving RDM a Weaponskill with 4.0fTP, 30%STR/50%MND mod (Magical WS with INT mod is just all the better), Magical, element/Debuff based on current Enspell. But have it mod with TP.

I.e

100% - - - 200% - - - 300%
4.0 - - - - 4.5 - - - - - - 4.75

Secondly, a Debuff for the WS could Depend on the Element. I.E with "Enfire" it would inflict Plague, With Enwater it would inflict Poison, With EnStone it would inflict Slow, so on and so forth.

(Secondary Idea is optional)

(I would break the hell out of that WS, making Wildfire look like a joke)

Personally I find the likelihood of us getting a second Weapon Skill custom tailored to our job is low, or highly distant. It would also likely be restricted to high level, which would not regard some of the concerns of some players stating we need a stronger early game WS presence.

Honestly to regard that issue I would like to see the Ex restrictions removed, entirely. The older style job specific WSes don't make any sense to remain restricted in today's game.

In the end our physical WS game isn't all that bad (aside from our Atk deficiency) We just don't have any access to the good ones natively. We either need a specific weapon (with CDC) or a specific subjob, to unlock any ones that have impact. And that seems rather odd considering our nuking game is still decent regardless of subjob. I don't understand why we're still restricted to quested/equipped WSes for decent damage or have a strict subjob choice if we want good WSes. Having them is not going to make us dominate.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Seriha

I'd still like to see a null-elemental WS that changes its element and skillchain properties based on your current enspell. Ideally it should do more than Sanguine Blade since it wouldn't have the curative property attached and it would allow us to adapt the element to the mob in question since, unlike SB, you wouldn't be stuck with a shitty darkness WS on darkness resistant mobs. We could then do an atma build like RR/Beyond/MM and still be generally proficient with an ice WS that could ideally break 2500 with an okay gear set. No, it's not Ukko's or Smite, but I don't think 40% or more of a scrub mob's HP is anything to scoff at. Plus it'd be amber over ruby, since people still have their ruby phobia.

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Doing 2k+ with Evisceration isn't hard right now, but i do like the idea of an Enspell dependent WS. It could be disastrous, or maybe we would get some job identity out of it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

Couple problems I see with that idea:


2. Magic WSes, I don't belive, are subject to DA/TA, Crit, etc. Chances that help other classes push incredibly high spikes.

3. Resists. Without an appropriate skillset to use as a base accuracy comparison on elemental WSes, they tend to suck in general. Sure, with Atmas we could push those numbers high enough to be decent in Abyssea. But outside ,we're just going to lose out on the same root problems we have with WSes before.

Now granted, Elemental WSes would save us a bunch on gear swaps, as we could simply use our casting/Nuking gear to WS. But unless the tripping points are addressed, it'd wind up being a half-effort WS that's not all that much better than Sanguine Blade outside Abyssea, which isn't that impressive at all.

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2. You can't get SA/TA, but you do get MAB applied to good elemental WSs.

3. Elemetal WSs almost never miss, but they do get resisted.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

(because if i recall, Inside Abyssea Wildfire is only"good" when you stack MAB/FireMab Atmas, if a RDM did this, they'd severely nerf their Melee-TP Damage phase, Which is not a good trade off. If you're going to advocate RDM melee in abyssea, at least do it right and put on the DD Atmas, any combo of VV, RR, GH, Omni and Apoc. Stacking MAB atmas just for your WS, on a job that would be meleeing for TP, would not be a great idea.)

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What if your enspell damage was affected by your MAB?

If you knew what mobs you were hunting, you could use elemental MAB ATMAs to boost your enspell damage (DPS) and your WS damage (Burst).

You get to melee and you get to do it like a Mage instead of like a THF. So you equip Mage Atmas and get to Melee with them too.

I personally want this to be the direction that RDM goes. Your magic makes up the difference in melee combat, not your brute strength or your lack of weapon proficiency. You still aren't going to out DPS a DD or out Burst a BLM, but you might get close enough that people would take you seriously.

Sorry, let me clarify. I mean Double-Attack, Tripple Attack. Which would really be a good boon to attack boosts.

As far as "never miss" some of the levels of resist we get might as well make the things miss.

It's just too much that could mess up.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

Sorry, let me clarify. I mean Double-Attack, Tripple Attack. Which would really be a good boon to attack boosts.

As far as "never miss" some of the levels of resist we get might as well make the things miss.

It's just too much that could mess up.

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I don't disagree with this and yes, elemental WS are very much about gear.

BUT I wouldn't be against it if gearing for magic affects our future enspell damage.

If you are using this correctly, you should be using an element that the mobs are weak to. So long as the base damage is high, everything should be fine. It won't matter if you get occasional resists because you would be wearing mage gear.

We would be able to use this in our AF3 and actually be taken seriously. Make the bonus stats INT and MND.

GOD I WANT TO MELEE IN MY AF3 SO BADLY!!!!


ALSO can we get an enfeeble that lowers magical evasion?

I would be against it.

There's nothing in the magical stats that enhances our physical traits. Mag.Atk. Bonus vs haste, accuracy, etc? The melee stats are going to win every time. Only way I'd conceed to that is if it comes accompanied with a LARGE wash of gear that mixes melee stats and magic stats, and that's highly unlikely, and even if they did, Enspell Damage + would be a far greater asset.

Composure gives +ACC and there is plenty of +ACC gear.

Giving us a way to gear for a good elemental WS and improved enspell damage at the same time is a step towards not having to compete with melee stats. They can have their game of physical stats + Haste and we can have our game of magical stats.

The end result is more Enspell damage. I want Enspell damage to go up, as well.

Look at our AF3. It stresses Mage skills as usual. So why not work with what we have already and get what we actually want? You can't have sword and sorcery without the sorcery.

*Adding a new idea*

While DA, TA, crits, ect... may add occasional spikes to physical WS you have to realize that there are other factors that can just as easily cause a physical WS to spike lower then normal such as missing, getting unlucky on RNG for pDif, ect...

The thing about elemental WSs is that they are VERY consistent. The only thing that can really hamper their damage is a resist, and even then if it's a WS that can change its element by your current enspell then resists are kept at a minimum.

Even if we ever go against a magical resistant monster we can always just switch back to our physical WS, but at the same time this is a luxury most melee won't have that when fighting a physical resistant monster we have our elemental WSs.

Really, while DA and TA can increase the damage of a physical WS by a large amount a small amount of the time, MAB on a magical WS increases the damage by a large amount 100% of the time.

And the most important thing is that with an elemental WS we will actually get updated gear. Physical WS gear is rare for Rdm. Nuking gear is a dime a dozen.

I mean it really wouldn't be that hard to balance a good Elemental WS for Rdm due to their consistency. It would be real easy for them to test a damage they find reasonable for Rdm and then bump it up a bit from the chance of resist and Physicals possibilities to spike.

We could make a balanced elemental WS for for us much better then nearly any physical WS could.

Like I mentioned before I did 1.1k with AW earlier on /sch and the thing is I'm missing some really important pieces for my WS set. I'm missing about ~15 MAB and +TP bonus +25.

And really the only thing that make it nonviable atm is you have to use a martial knife which eats your DoT which this issue disappears if we get a seord WS due to the fact we get TotM swords.

Adding some form of native Rdm dual wield or *gasp* fencer will only make the prospect of an elemental WS and the ability to use /sch even better.

Here is the next step for making our mage gear into something useful.

JOB TRAIT

lvl 50+

When RDM has an Enspell active, they gain Equipment Haste = 1/2* of their Fast Cast value. *adjustable*

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If you want to gear for /NIN or /DNC there is a huge chunk of equipment haste you don't have to track down. You can gear for damage now.

If you want to gear for /WAR, DRK, PLD, BLU you get access to Sanguine blade and you can stack Mage stats to get the most out of both your enspells, sanguine blade, and Seriha's new enspell dependant WS.

If you want to /MAGE you just got even more recast from that equipment haste. You will be able to spam more spells, so long as your MP holds out.

There are benefits across the board. Every kind of RDM can benefit.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Supersun

Adding some form of native Rdm dual wield or *gasp* fencer will only make the prospect of an elemental WS and the ability to use /sch even better.

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EXACTLY. If we could get some kind of innate TP bonus, such as Fencer, we could be elemental WS specialist. Sword and Sorcery.


Lol, I could get some use out of my Murgleis and we would still use an Almace when we need Physical damage.

JA haste makes more sense imo, tying it to equip haste is unnecessary. Seriha's idea of JA haste attached to Composure is the one I favor the most, even if SE never does it.

I don't see Elemental WS being a solution, unless something has a ridiculous amount of PDT/defense physical weaponskills are usually the better option. Of course SE's idea of 'balance' is to give the elemental dagger WS with no magian daggers and magian swords without the elemental sword WS...