Adjustments to Embrava and Perfect Defense

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dekar

The thing that really scares me is the fact they admit to not having explained their entire reasoning behind it. Shouldn't they have done that first?

---

Given that's how they've operated for the entire 10 years this game has been live, at least have the decency to ack. that this is a very welcome change of tack and hope that it's an indication of things to come.

I'm just glad they decided to hold off until the new SP abilities and adjustment to a one-hour timer are implemented, since that's the reason they told us PD and embrava had to adjusted to begin with (while I suspect there's something more to it than this).

Man, there's pretty much no excuse whatsoever for not having Nyzul gear after this. Floor 80 is extremely easy to reach with the current system.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rezeak

...[A]s for the reasoning, Embrava and PD are overpowered is the reason they need a nerf....

---

I can't stand when this statement is repeated. Embrava and PD are overpowered only in comparison to other, less useful SPs. Embrava and PD are in no way overpowered in comparison to the borked end-game.

Yes, they are abused. I have been in many a Provenance shout group that relies on Embrava during the Cat fights because the DDs are garbage. But the problem with Embrava and PD is not how powerful it is. The problem with these abilities is how even with these supposedly "overpowered", game-breaking abilities, the end-game scene still relies on a strike of luck against "fack you" monster abilities with no other significant form of mitigation.

If FFXI should be engineered for the elitists of the world, then make the leet gear purchasable with real money. Let the game content be fun, not stupid, and anyone who takes personal status over in-game enjoyment can line SE's coffers without being a scapegoat for the stupidity of the FFXI development program.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Llana_Virren

I can't stand when this statement is repeated.

---

Ok, I can appreciate that... its the rest of your post that I take issue with... so let me begin.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Llana_Virren

Embrava and PD are overpowered only in comparison to other, less useful SPs.

---

Opinion: Noted. You apparently appear to be saying that other SPs are less useful; that is ok... your opinion, as stated, is noted.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Llana_Virren

Embrava and PD are in no way overpowered in comparison to the borked end-game.

---

I have not idea what you are referring to here... what "borked" end-game... what are you talking about?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Llana_Virren

Yes, they are abused.

---

By what standard is this "abuse" occurring, is this based on an known evidence you can provide to support this statement. Have the developers stated that Embrava and PD are abused by the player base? Please provide such statements or comments if they were made by the development team.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Llana_Virren

I have been in many a Provenance shout group that relies on Embrava during the Cat fights because the DDs are garbage.

---

**Ahhh, a breath of fresh air in this post---something based on your actual gameplay experience... I only wish more of this post was so enlightened.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Llana_Virren

But the problem with Embrava and PD is not how powerful it is. The problem with these abilities is how even with these supposedly "overpowered", game-breaking abilities, the end-game scene still relies on a strike of luck against "fack you" monster abilities with no other significant form of mitigation.

---

Hmm, what are you trying to say here? You mention that there's a "problem" with the abilities Embrava and PD, but you fail to state what the actual problem is...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Llana_Virren

If FFXI should be engineered for the elitists of the world

---

Is this an opinion? I cannot help but "assume" it is... please provide at least one post, from the developers that state FFXI was engineered for the elitists of the world... since you stated "If FFXI should be engineered for elitists..." I'm assuming you have some evidence to support this statement, so that I can make some sense of the rest of it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Llana_Virren

then make the leet gear purchasable with real money.

---

Your comment referencing purchasing "leet gear" with real money--isn't that in the Terms of Service of the game as a violation worth being banned over? If so, why would you state the developer should deviate from their policy and authorize such actions?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Llana_Virren

Let the game content be fun, not stupid, and anyone who takes personal status over in-game enjoyment can line SE's coffers without being a scapegoat for the stupidity of the FFXI development program.

---

Ok this just seems outright offensive... I'm not sure where your comment is going or its purpose but calling game content stupid and referring to the FFXI development program as stupid... wouldn't it just be easier, as a subscriber, to cancel your subscription instead of going to these lengths to communicate or make a point that appears to be borderline degrading?

Just sayin'...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by xiozen

Ok, I can appreciate that... its the rest of your post that I take issue with... so let me begin.



Opinion: Noted. You apparently appear to be saying that other SPs are less useful; that is ok... your opinion, as stated, is noted.



I have not idea what you are referring to here... what "borked" end-game... what are you talking about?

By what standard is this "abuse" occurring, is this based on an known evidence you can provide to support this statement. Have the developers stated that Embrava and PD are abused by the player base? Please provide such statements or comments if they were made by the development team.

**Ahhh, a breath of fresh air in this post---something based on your actual gameplay experience... I only wish more of this post was so enlightened.

Hmm, what are you trying to say here? You mention that there's a "problem" with the abilities Embrava and PD, but you fail to state what the actual problem is...

Is this an opinion? I cannot help but "assume" it is... please provide at least one post, from the developers that state FFXI was engineered for the elitists of the world... since you stated "If FFXI should be engineered for elitists..." I'm assuming you have some evidence to support this statement, so that I can make some sense of the rest of it.

Your comment referencing purchasing "leet gear" with real money--isn't that in the Terms of Service of the game as a violation worth being banned over? If so, why would you state the developer should deviate from their policy and authorize such actions?

Ok this just seems outright offensive... I'm not sure where your comment is going or its purpose but calling game content stupid and referring to the FFXI development program as stupid... wouldn't it just be easier, as a subscriber, to cancel your subscription instead of going to these lengths to communicate or make a point that appears to be borderline degrading?

Just sayin'...

---

I'm not sure if you are intentionally being obtuse or you just don't get it, but she/he was right on every count.

A JP post made this morning says that there won't be any more buff locking.

Primary Source: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...753#post383753

Secondary (translated) Source: http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/112...=1#post5501269

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Byrth

A JP post made this morning says that there won't be any more buff locking.

---

Excellent.

Merry Christmas!

As was mentioned yesterday, here is a full explanation from Producer Akihiko Matsui about the adjustments to Perfect Defense and Embrava.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Akihiko_Matsui

Greetings everyone, Matsui here.

I’d like to explain the background as well as the future plans involving the adjustments to Perfect Defense and Embrava.

There may be some areas that are lacking in detail, but I’d appreciate it if you could read through the entire post.

Pros and Cons of Adjustment and Timing
In the midst of my efforts to catch up on the two years that I’d missed, this was the first thing I took notice of. I was apprehensive that this would become a situation following in the footsteps of Utsusemi, so I spoke to the development and operations team and made a quick decision to make these adjustments knowing that there was little time.

While the development and operation team members understood this and agreed with me, we were unable to properly convey our thoughts on the forum, and since this work was taking place in the middle of our already limited time, I would like to apologize to all of you for causing concern.

This is linked to the canceling out of any other battle strategy decisions, and also looking ahead to the development work for the jobs and content that are to be implemented in Seekers of Adoulin, I believe that these adjustments are necessary. (Especially for Embrava.)

Can’t you just strengthen the other special abilities without weakening Perfect Defense and Embrava?
When comparing these to other special abilities, they have such extensive effects that I do not think it would be realistic to adjust all of the special abilities to match them.

Also, in the case that we were to create content and monsters with the current Perfect Defense and Embrava in existence, it would result in brute-force behavior that nullifies or erases these abilities, so scholar and summoner’s position in the battlefield would not remain the same as it is.

There is a difference between only having content and enemies that can be enjoyed by dealing huge amounts of damage with continuous weapon skills, versus having this type of content and enemies as well as other content and enemies.

Are you getting rid of all battle strategies that are advantageous for players?
Regardless of whether it is advantageous or disadvantageous, as long as we feel there is a balance-related problem we will make adjustments. The big issue I see is that we are weakening these abilities despite the fact that it has been around for such a long time untouched.

I really understand everyone’s feelings, and that you hate this since you all did your best and endured hardships leveling up and gathering equipment. Not everything we do is perfect, so when we make a mistake we would like to rectify it and we promise to make the adjustments and fixes right away.

What about the content adjustments? Are you not going to do anything?
In addition to the reasons above, I understand that many feel that if the current adjustment plans are implemented, then they will no longer be able to clear content, so they do not want it implemented.

This is related to the intrinsic problem that the necessary content is not reaching the necessary people. However, since a complete short-term solution is difficult, whether it is the addition of new content or the adjusting of existing content, we will implement them in phases.

Why the delay?
There are three reasons.

1. Lack of communication
2. By implementing these adjustments, the content that can be enjoyed by players coming in after the fact will be lost
3. The impact from other adjustments would be large

In regards to the first reason, I feel we need to continue to improve this and time to do so is necessary.

In regards to the second reason, while I feel that providing new content and in-depth adjustments is the ideal route to go, this would be at minimum the next version update (the one after the December version update), so we decided to implement only the content adjustments ahead of time.

However, for the new salvage only, we will be addressing it slightly irregularly by making it so that the effect of Embrava becomes what was planned for adjustment. While the new salvage was not balanced on the basis of Embrava, if it can be used as-is, then battle strategies will be formulated based on its use. There were quite a few posts that were concerned about how the adjustments would affect the new salvage, and many were commenting that the implementation should be pushed back. However, since pushing back implementation would reduce the amount of content that could be played we decided to adopt this method of adjustment.

In regards to the third reason, this is the first time mentioning this, but we will be fixing the bug where ability effect duration timers can be stopped when talking to NPCs since QA testing has concluded as of yesterday and implementation is now possible.

This was originally a counter-measure to prevent being killed while in a cutscene, but it was utilized in a different way and by allowing this it would completely eliminate the meaning behind abilities with strong effects in exchange for short effect durations. Additionally, similar to the adjustments to Perfect Defense and Embrava, with development work continuing on Seekers of Adoulin, we decided it was necessary at this point in time to fix this.

In closing
I’m sorry that we’ve been so wary about posting on the forum until now.

Also, since yesterday’s post, I started seeing comments to hurry up and make the adjustments, and I once again feel that adjustments that everyone agrees on are difficult.

In addition to the development and operations team and I increasing our efforts to understand both individual players and everyone as a whole, we will be making adjustments as necessary and appearing on the forums more. Thank you all very much.

---

Quote:

---

In regards to the third reason, this is the first time mentioning this, but we will be fixing the bug where ability effect duration timers can be stopped when talking to NPCs since QA testing has concluded as of yesterday and implementation is now possible.

This was originally a counter-measure to prevent being killed while in a cutscene, but it was utilized in a different way and by allowing this it would completely eliminate the meaning behind abilities with strong effects in exchange for short effect durations. Additionally, similar to the adjustments to Perfect Defense and Embrava, with development work continuing on Seekers of Adoulin, we decided it was necessary at this point in time to fix this.

---

So as long as you are messing with the interaction between menu stuff and the rest of the game, could you get rid of "Event skipped." already?

Wow, that's...an actual explanation. It has consistent internal logic and explains stuff in detail. It looks like it took some time to put together.

Seriously, thanks.

Quote:

---

we will be fixing the bug where ability effect duration timers can be stopped when talking to NPCs since QA testing has concluded as of yesterday and implementation is now possible.

---

Will this include the freezing of brews in abyssea, or only apply specifically to abilities? I mean... its hard enough to get cruor as it is, with voidwatch having died down (after the blinker nerf) and xp parties these days are generally half full on shiva (and full of fresh-off-the-GOV-Bookburnt rack so take 5 min to kill a worm with their lv50 cap skills) since the majority of people already have most jobs to 99

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Akihiko_Matsui

This is linked to the canceling out of any other battle strategy decisions, and also looking ahead to the development work for the jobs and content that are to be implemented in Seekers of Adoulin, I believe that these adjustments are necessary. (Especially for Embrava.)

---

This stinks of 'RNF/GEO are getting buffs similar to these, so current jobs have to lose them'.

Thank you, producer Akihiko Matsui for the detailed post. Bust once again I must ask that you address the potential of us, the player base, contributing to the coding effort. Most of us are adept developers and would enjoy the opportunity to contribute to the advancement of our favorite game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Malthar

Thank you, producer Akihiko Matsui for the detailed post. Bust once again I must ask that you address the potential of us, the player base, contributing to the coding effort. Most of us are adept developers and would enjoy the opportunity to contribute to the advancement of our favorite game.

---

No, most of us are not adept developers (or even slightly experienced for that matter). A few are and likely none of them speak Japanese. Not that I wouldn't love to see some of the cool stuff that the community comes up with make it's way into the game, but I don't think you realize how many hurdles there are in the way of that happening.

What I am hearing is that there will be more of an emphasis on battle strategies for new and old content, where brute force "zerg" style strategies previously worked. So long as the development team is committed to continually adjusting game content appropriately while weakening things like perfect defense and embrava, I am very ok with that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mayoyama

Will this include the freezing of brews in abyssea, or only apply specifically to abilities? I mean... its hard enough to get cruor as it is, with voidwatch having died down (after the blinker nerf) and xp parties these days are generally half full on shiva (and full of fresh-off-the-GOV-Bookburnt rack so take 5 min to kill a worm with their lv50 cap skills) since the majority of people already have most jobs to 99

---

I would also like to know the answer to this. IF brews will loose the ability of being "locked", would it be possible to have their duration increased or some similar trade-off?

In regards to the recent dev post-

I think I'm probably speaking for a lot of people when I say that something of a nerf to Perfect Defense and Embrava is necessary. However, the reason people are complaining is that the adjustments are too heavy-handed and result in these abilities coming close to not being useful at all.

for instance:

I can accept a reduction in Perfect Defense duration to 60 seconds; what I can't accept is the additional requirement of needing an unachieveable amount of summoning magic skill to get that duration.

For Embrava, I'd be fine with weakening the effect a bit ore reducing the duration; but changing an effect that people want and consider useful to an effect that few if any people consider useful basically destroys the spell entirely. Instead of changing the TP recovery to MP recovery, it should simply give a smaller amount of TP recovery.

I would like to point out something the development team might not be considering: Mages. As a SMN with Hvergelmir I actually love Embrava for the Regain effect, it gives me the chance to put to use a weapon I worked hard to get. I use it constantly in Legion and ADL, right after I pop Perfect Defense I use Myrkr and get enough MP back to continue dealing damage and using Shock Squall. I understand MP recovery from the new Embrava realistically will accomplish the same goal (getting MP back over time) however Myrkr gives me the control over when I want that MP and allows me to utilize a weapon I worked hard to get. That being said, I don't think Regain is the reason Embrava is considered overpowered and I would request that regain stay.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Llana_Virren

I can't stand when this statement is repeated. Embrava and PD are overpowered only in comparison to other, less useful SPs. Embrava and PD are in no way overpowered in comparison to the borked end-game.

---

But do you really think that the way to fix endgame is for a job to have an ability that grants an undispelable, 90 second buff to an entire party's defences that make all attacks and status effects do nothing? Edit: (Yes, I realize Perfect Defence degrades over time but there's still the issue of it being relied on by the majority of players, which facilitated some of the problems we're facing currently. I.E. ADL being balanced around PD.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Llana_Virren

Yes, they are abused. I have been in many a Provenance shout group that relies on Embrava during the Cat fights because the DDs are garbage. But the problem with Embrava and PD is not how powerful it is. The problem with these abilities is how even with these supposedly "overpowered", game-breaking abilities, the end-game scene still relies on a strike of luck against "fack you" monster abilities with no other significant form of mitigation.

---

Well, why do you think that is? One of the few things Perfect Defence doesn't protect against is Death. And now look at some newer monster that were released. Death Prophet is conal Death. Monsters spam TP attacks in an attempt to catch the player in-between moments of complete invulnerability. If by "no other significant form of mitigation", you mean give all the jobs equally broken SP, that kind of endgame can't sustain itself for long. At that point, picking which jobs to take is just a matter of looking at their SPs. And I for one don't want a game that only cares about one singular job ability of the many we get.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alhanelem

In regards to the recent dev post-

I think I'm probably speaking for a lot of people when I say that something of a nerf to Perfect Defense and Embrava is necessary. However, the reason people are complaining is that the adjustments are too heavy-handed and result in these abilities coming close to not being useful at all.

for instance:

I can accept a reduction in Perfect Defense duration to 60 seconds; what I can't accept is the additional requirement of needing an unachieveable amount of summoning magic skill to get that duration.

For Embrava, I'd be fine with weakening the effect a bit ore reducing the duration; but changing an effect that people want and consider useful to an effect that few if any people consider useful basically destroys the spell entirely. Instead of changing the TP recovery to MP recovery, it should simply give a smaller amount of TP recovery.

---

Agreed. I don't see why anyone would need refresh off Embrava, just reduce TP to 2 ticks, hell even 1 would be better than refresh...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alhanelem

In regards to the recent dev post-

I think I'm probably speaking for a lot of people when I say that something of a nerf to Perfect Defense and Embrava is necessary. However, the reason people are complaining is that the adjustments are too heavy-handed and result in these abilities coming close to not being useful at all.

for instance:

I can accept a reduction in Perfect Defense duration to 60 seconds; what I can't accept is the additional requirement of needing an unachieveable amount of summoning magic skill to get that duration.

For Embrava, I'd be fine with weakening the effect a bit ore reducing the duration; but changing an effect that people want and consider useful to an effect that few if any people consider useful basically destroys the spell entirely. Instead of changing the TP recovery to MP recovery, it should simply give a smaller amount of TP recovery.

---

Comunity team please translate this

Mr. Matsui, please tell me that we'll still be able to do Nyzul Uncharted with a reasonable expectation of success once these adjustments are implemented. My group is out right now and I think I may miss out on this opportunity to get a Phorcys armor set. There will still be more chances, right? And what about everyone else who may miss this opportunity?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mefuki

But do you really think that the way to fix endgame is for a job to have an ability that grants an undispelable, 90 second buff to an entire party's defences that make all attacks and status effects do nothing?

Well, why do you think that is? One of the few things Perfect Defence doesn't protect against is Death. And now look at some newer monster that were released. Death Prophet is conal Death. Monsters spam TP attacks in an attempt to catch the player in-between moments of complete invulnerability. If by "no other significant form of mitigation", you mean give all the jobs equally broken SP, that kind of endgame can't sustain itself for long. At that point, picking which jobs to take is just a matter of looking at their SPs. And I for one don't want a game that only cares about one singular job ability of the many we get.

---

I think the point was that you can't just adjust one thing and not the other. If you nerf the abilities, then all the stuff you made before that becomes incredibly difficult. If you Nerf the content then it becomes too easy for any group that has said abilities at hand.

The problem is that this is SE we are dealing with, so they are just gonna do the abilities since they require less work and call it a day. The end effect is that everything is still imbalanced, only now the customers are pissed off instead of just being mildly depressed.

TLDR; The content and the abilities must be adjusted at the same time or everyone loses.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Behemothx

Agreed. I don't see why anyone would need refresh off Embrava, just reduce TP to 2 ticks, hell even 1 would be better than refresh...

---

Good news. The sch can give you 1/tic regain along with the refresh effect. Just takes a few more charges.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xantavia

Good news. The sch can give you 1/tic regain along with the refresh effect. Just takes a few more charges.

---

Those effects stack don't they? So the good news is that having the 1TP regain spell shouldn't preclude embrava from having TP instead of mp recovery.

the biggest part I like in the new boss' post is the comments about adjusting strategies because it leads me to believe there is a concerted effort to get those jobs currently on the scrap heap back into the mix of end game content. That being said, the job I'm still worried about is red mage. Almost everything rdm can do another job can do better. Now, despite the fact I pride myself on being an idea man, particularily with unconventional thinking, I just can't conceive of a way to breath life into rdm without taking it from one of the other jobs, and believe me, i've tried. Tier 5 nukes-scholar and blm may get the axe, higher cures/regen/group buffing-whm and sch (possibly even brd) may get the axe, increased melee damage-blu may go and pld has just recently gotten back into the discussion in a limited way, they may be gone, damage resistance/tanking-seems to impact rune as it has been described, and maybe nin or dnc

guess what I'm asking for is some idea of how that might be addressed. it's a problem for everyone, and you have a LARGE player base with at least some understanding of game mechanics. if you can bring what you have so far to the table maybe we can help you guys brainstorm a bit? judging by the activity in the rdm forum there are plenty of us willing as well. Now, I'm not a rdm (despite having a 99, it's really just there to skill magic), but I've been in tons of parties and seen many different niches that need to be filled. The best way to fill those varies dependent upon what jobs are available. The strength of rdm was that it could fill so many of those niches, but with the advent of scholar also being able to multi-role while nuking harder and curing better + AoE buffs, rdm's role as a gap filler just flat out died. so it needs another task that people will conceivably want-but without killing scholar.

So I guess what i'm saying is that if you are committed to 2-way communication, let's give it a shot and see where this goes!

Quote:

---

90 second buff to an entire party's defences that make all attacks and status effects do nothing?

---

Have you even used Perfect Defense...? bgt doesn't make you invulnerable, Just highly resistant. You're still very capable of being killed with PD up... Even a lot of debuffs do get through it, Including the most annoying ones like Terror, Death, Dispel, and Doom.

The first ~15-20 Seconds of Perfect Defense, You do take heavily resisted damage, But after that You can and will die if not cured or provided support.

I admit it needs and Adjustment, But whats happening to it now is flat out unreasonable. The HIghest possible duration is 2/3rd of its current duration and is at this time, unobtainable... They could have just nerfed the Duration to 45~60(Depending on necessary level of Balance) Seconds and kept everything else the same. Using Summoning Magic skill, While Clever, Just hurts more SMNs than it helps. I personally am sitting at 460 Skill after Gear, But I'm still far from capped...

I like the idea they're nerfing these abilities so that they don't have to rely on balancing content around them in the future, But at the same time, removing 10% of a mobs HP Isn't exactly adjusting the content enough to become beatable without use of these methods.

I mean a lot of stuff is still beatable without PD/Embrava, even though its a popular strategy, but some content is so eyerippingly annoying without it that people needing said event would almost never find help for it. Mostly this is in regards to ADL, Which has Terrible drops and is luck reliant and annoying as is.

... Ugh, I've gotten all Rant-y. Long story short, I like the Idea of what they're doing to this, But at the same time, their 'Adjusting current content' needs to be a bit more significant since some of the content (ADL) seems to have been designed entirely around using PD.

Edit: I also hope he seriously considers without these ABilities, Jobs like SMN and SCH are not RDM-Tier in terms of usefulness. I.E No one will remember the job exists.

Honestly, if they implemented the patch exactly as stated:
1) ADL win rates would drop a little.
2) Nyzul win rates would probably go up because they're overnerfing it.
3) Legion would be slightly more painful (one more bard swap) but not really that different. I can do one more bard swap if you give monsters 10% less HP.
4) Provenance would be slightly more annoying, in that you'd need better DDs to win the zerg because you have to eat 2 Marches.
5) AV would get slightly more annoying
6) Pandemonium Warden's final form would get a little more annoying

Other than those, there are pretty much no cases where PD and Embrava are used strategically at the moment. Embrava is certainly used in a lot of situations because it's convenient (a lot of healing, a lot of haste, and you don't even have to be using a dualbox), but that's exactly what SE is okay with eliminating. Similarly, I bring a SMN character to Tier 3 Einherjar because doing the bosses with PD is just easier. SE is probably fine with me not being able to abuse that anymore.

Long story short, I don't think the nerf/buffs proposed are really that destructive.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Byrth

Honestly, if they implemented the patch exactly as stated:
1) ADL win rates would drop a little.
2) Nyzul win rates would probably go up because they're overnerfing it.
3) Legion would be slightly more painful (one more bard swap) but not really that different. I can do one more bard swap if you give monsters 10% less HP.
4) Provenance would be slightly more annoying, in that you'd need better DDs to win the zerg because you have to eat 2 Marches.
5) AV would get slightly more annoying
6) Pandemonium Warden's final form would get a little more annoying

Other than those, there are pretty much no cases where PD and Embrava are used strategically at the moment. Embrava is certainly used in a lot of situations because it's convenient (a lot of healing, a lot of haste, and you don't even have to be using a dualbox), but that's exactly what SE is okay with eliminating. Similarly, I bring a SMN character to Tier 3 Einherjar because doing the bosses with PD is just easier. SE is probably fine with me not being able to abuse that anymore.

Long story short, I don't think the nerf/buffs proposed are really that destructive.

---

The biggest nerf of all is buffs no longer being lockable, making the brd rotations a bitch.

As for needing better DDs since you need to eat 2 marches in prov, alternatively, use a 99 daur brd and pickup brd, or 2 x 90~95 daur brds.

singing 4 songs is long you know. especially if you want good songs ie you have to overwrite DDB songs with +3 instruments, takes at least 1 minute.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Byrth

Honestly, if they implemented the patch exactly as stated:
1) ADL win rates would drop a little.
2) Nyzul win rates would probably go up because they're overnerfing it.
3) Legion would be slightly more painful (one more bard swap) but not really that different. I can do one more bard swap if you give monsters 10% less HP.
4) Provenance would be slightly more annoying, in that you'd need better DDs to win the zerg because you have to eat 2 Marches.
5) AV would get slightly more annoying
6) Pandemonium Warden's final form would get a little more annoying

Other than those, there are pretty much no cases where PD and Embrava are used strategically at the moment. Embrava is certainly used in a lot of situations because it's convenient (a lot of healing, a lot of haste, and you don't even have to be using a dualbox), but that's exactly what SE is okay with eliminating. Similarly, I bring a SMN character to Tier 3 Einherjar because doing the bosses with PD is just easier. SE is probably fine with me not being able to abuse that anymore.

Long story short, I don't think the nerf/buffs proposed are really that destructive.

---

BS on that first one. It's a 50/50 chance of you picking the right one when it splits and without PD the chances of killing the 2nd clone are pretty low. That's amusing you even survived the initial double 30foot oblivion smash's and that everyone isn't afflicted by a high potency paralyze. Win rates going to drop a lot, it won't by any means be impossible but it will be FAR more then "a little".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by saevel

BS on that first one. It's a 50/50 chance of you picking the right one when it splits and without PD the chances of killing the 2nd clone are pretty low. That's amusing you even survived the initial double 30foot oblivion smash's and that everyone isn't afflicted by a high potency paralyze. Win rates going to drop a lot, it won't by any means be impossible but it will be FAR more then "a little".

---

Many of the groups that lowman ADL at the moment (which are the major source of marrows) are only realistically capable of killing one of the two clones post-split. It doesn't take them 90 seconds to do that. Additionally, this is being implemented (we assume) in the same patch as chainspell shock squalls. I think people will still kill one of the two clones, but some groups that are managing to kill both at the moment will only kill one now.

So some fraction of the total marrow supplier pool will drop from a 100% win rate to a 50% win rate, some will stay at a 50% win rate, and some will stay at a 100% win rate. I don't think it's going to affect the price of marrows that much in the end.

The WS after split is instant, so if he wants to hit you with oblivion smash's paralyze, you ain't stunning that regardless of chainsquall. Speaking from experience, the paralyze from oblivion smash has an unfair proc rate.

The new SP ability and PD aren't exclusive, and the new SP ability refills your MP.

PD -> 57 seconds of damage/status resistance with a good build
New SP -> 30 seconds of shock squalls

So the split isn't an issue because you'll still have PD up. Just start summoning Alex after the pop and you'll kill one clone every time for sure.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Byrth

The new SP ability and PD aren't exclusive, and the new SP ability refills your MP.

PD -> 57 seconds of damage/status resistance with a good build
New SP -> 30 seconds of shock squalls

So the split isn't an issue because you'll still have PD up. Just start summoning Alex after the pop and you'll kill one clone every time for sure.

---

We can kill one clone without PD, double oblivion smash sucks hard core but it's not enough to wipe you. The problem comes after the first one dies and you got to kill the second. By then you've taken more damage and there is a very good chance it'll get one move off before you squall it at 25~30%, if that move is an oblivion smash then it's game over as your SMN's just died meaning no squall so no stun during it's implosion middle finger phase. Between 60 and 25% HP ADL really REALLY likes to use O smash. If you stun the second clone when you engage then it'll wear under 25% and again big middle finger time. I don't know where you get 57s unless your piling on every scrap of summoning magic skill that's around now, I figured between 52~55 will be what you can expect. That's not the full story though, right now PD lasts 45s then starts to deteriorate rapidly for the next 45s. Under the "new" system it would be 30s of near immunity where it then rapidly deteriorates. Honestly your looking at only 40~45s of real protection, gotta time it really tight if you want it to last through the second clone. His damn summoning animation then the re-engagement time is just a huge PD time sink.

We have killed ADL with 4 clones out and no PD, obviously your DD are terrible. When we do ADL we have mythic drk, mythic drg, mythic sam, relic/empy brd and a mythic whm. It is not as bad as you think, try switching into pdt set when it is starting to split take alot less damage, and yes shadow mantle can proc and take 0 damage. As for Prov who needs PD and embrava on it, rotate stuns on it and it wont cast spells the fight is easy., AV is even easier with 99 Aegis PLD can live thru chainspell meteor and take next to nothing in damage, instead of zerging it you can just melee kill and have pld hold if it goes bad. Yes we use embrava and PD but it is mainly to kill ADL and Legion fast so we can do mutiple runs, but we can do multiple runs without them just takes more prep time. Instead of us doing 3-5 waves of Mul will only be able to do 3 and possibly half of 4th.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zamms

We have killed ADL with 4 clones out and no PD, obviously your DD are terrible. When we do ADL we have mythic drk, mythic drg, mythic sam, relic/empy brd and a mythic whm.

---

Man i saw a ls hack the other day cause they had no mythics and killed ADL. Really ADL is either about stunning or perfect defense.

btw i do find weird that pple forget SE said that the new 2hrs will be on separate recasts meaning 57 secs of PD followed by 30 secs of Chain shock squall ^^

Additionally, with the reduction of cooldown to 1 hour, two summoners can do four new-duration PDs instead of two old-duration PDs during one single Dynamis run, as long as you have one pop set ready after less than an hour of entering.