I actually like it. Always wanted SMN to be the best "defensive" support class, since it looks like SE is giving it such tools. I've usually just been unhappy with how inefficient the tools were. Like Aerial armor being 50% chance to dodge shadows, instead of 100% utsusemi. Or how Fenrir pacts depended on moon phase so you only were helpful certain hours each week.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonlionheart
Of course Alexander alone makes it the best defensive support, but I prefer being it more than once every 2 hours.
Job Manifesto discussion RE: Summoner
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08-25-2011, 06:55 AMMalamasala
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08-25-2011, 08:26 AMAlkar
I'm really hoping Shock Squall will have an instant cast like Stun does. Summoner already has a delay when using Blood Pacts and if you add the avatar reading the ability on top of that it'd just be too much for a BP that's meant to be used on reaction and quickly.
Carbuncle's BP looks solid at least, that's a relief. -
08-25-2011, 08:32 AMTannloreCamate....Quote:
Originally Posted by Camate
You make me have bittersweet feelings when you post. Good things 'bout pacts but sad things about avatars. *tugs at your pompom*
I like the details about Carbuncle.. no I love it actually. Already at 5 ailments removed as I stand now with my skill, this will make things very nice indeed.
Now This stunga lasting twice as long as stun? Hmmm... that might begin to make up for a long charge time (I'm one of those that highly doubts it will not have one).
But boo at Cait Sith and Atomos.... Boo I say!
Oh and while I'm at it....
What's under that turban anyhow? *sneaks a peek under there* -
08-25-2011, 09:09 AMCiecle
aww... i leveled summoner for cait sith... and as i read that right, we're not getting her till later?...
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08-25-2011, 10:53 AMSoundwaveThanks for the info CamateQuote:
Originally Posted by Camate
I enjoy whats being done with these BP for all summoners, I just wish I had a use for them myself....I might find a use for Shock Squall but I don't see me using Soothing Ruby due to I'm mainly solo play with no VW Linkshell or other type of event. But that's my fault of course.
Avatars Fatcat/Atomos
Had a feeling they are for 96+ and of course us beggars can't be choosers, so you'll release the avatars when the times right!
Shock Squall
With Shock Squall having extra hate just sounds weird...I dunno what to make of this yet.
Soothing Ruby
Back to Soothing Ruby, It's also hard to give feedback not knowing fine details on this new ability that lowers recast for BP. If a mob spams enfeebles and depending on how low we can get our recast set I feel Soothing Ruby may not be up to par for clearing enfeebles? -
08-25-2011, 01:16 PMSoranika
I actually like the ideal of soothing ruby ability to erase ailments. Most dedicated SMNs, by these notes, can instantly wipe away 5. This is VERY useful against NMs who like to cause multiple status ailments and a possible relief effort on behalf of WHM and their limit to erasing two at the most (With Erase/Esuna while under the effect of Aff. Misery.) It does lose it's usage when mobs and NMs like to continually spam multiple status effects.
I'm still not sold on stunga properties of shock squall. Enmity gain would actually be easy to deal with unless it's resisted. If that be the case then SMN wouldn't be able to release Ramuh without attracting hate to themselves. I honestly can't see a party relying on a SMN to stun when BLM/SCH, SCH/BLM been doing it for a long time now. A slightly longer period of stun isn't very helpful if you're late stunning a fatal party/alliance wiping attack because of Avatar's readying delay.
On Cait Sith and Atomos, I'm not the least bit surprised that they aren't ready yet. At the very least, SE basically gave people incentive to hurry and finish WotG if they haven't all ready because they want to be ready for the new avatars. (Either to summon, new equipment or both.) -
08-25-2011, 02:30 PMDallas
High enmity on an AOE Ward pact is very good news for SMN. I hope the enmity levels are VERY high.
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08-25-2011, 02:34 PMSoundwave???????????????Quote:
Originally Posted by Dallas
At least give a reason/explain a bit before dropping a line that has no answer to your own response.
Only response your going to get is...."Why" -
08-25-2011, 02:40 PMKarbuncleUsing it as a hate tool to have Ramuh Tank multiple Enemies? Seems like a decent reason. Ramuh is disposable, could really help in some situations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundwave
I dunno if it'd be much help solo, but i could see it being quite useful. -
08-25-2011, 02:46 PMSoundwave
Hmmmm, apparently I'm not thinking outside the box tonight...
Well if solo, depending how mobs aggro to you, or if you accidentally stun one, once dead or released all mobs should de-agrro.
In a alliance situation I don't see the summoner pulling much hate off blm's sleep, as well not knowing how much hate this is going to create.
It's not really said if hate is coming from the summoner or avatar....however I'll assume the summoner.
With that being said, it will be somewhat annoying to summon an avatar, and watch it run to the mob who u have most hate on and wake it up etc. while your trying to do another BP. Grrrr...
**Edit
Sorry didn't they make sleep generate less hate now? I can't recall. -
08-25-2011, 03:43 PMMalamasalaRamuh can't survive tanking multiple mobs. Only scenario that pans out well seem to be BLMs sleepga + Ramuh shock squall for having all woken mobs chase the avatar instead of BLMs. This is because Ramuh won't have to take a beating and the enmity needs a certain level to remove hate from others. On pure links and such you'd do fine with 1 enmity on monsters since nobody else has any.Quote:
Originally Posted by Karbuncle
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08-25-2011, 05:10 PMAlhanelemErrr, what? I know that with these NMs, the hateless spike damage comes in handy once again (harken back to the days of old, yo!), but is it really so hard to do damage with any other job that SMN ends up being so up there? What about ranged? will ranger trick attack give them a strong spot here?Quote:
Holy crap, that just made the already best DD in Voidwatch even more valuable.
Genuine question. I have honestly yet to even touch voidwatch. -
08-25-2011, 05:27 PMSpankWustlerI'd say Summoner's niche in Voidwatch doesn't come from the raw damage so much as the perks that come with a Summoner's damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alhanelem
It's partly the other things Summoner can do beyond damage (Earthen Armor), and partly that they give the monster no TP (less useful if the monster has Regain, but sometimes valid). They also never require any attention from the support. Summoner is amazing in every way for fights where you want to play it very safe, and with the addition of Soothing Ruby they'll have another tool for such situations. -
08-25-2011, 11:24 PMDallasCataclysm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundwave
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08-26-2011, 01:21 AMMalamasalaDepends on how you play. It is good for just plowing down the NM, but usually you want to trigger stuff. For this, SMN is terrible, and the only real gain is that you can easily get JA/WS hints every 10 seconds from your assault command.Quote:
Genuine question. I have honestly yet to even touch voidwatch.
I usually just stand and get trigger info by spamming dia/diaII/banish or Assault/Retreat until 50%, at which time I swap over to dealing damage.
I've attempted to trigger stuff with spirits but you know... subbing SCH is better than a spirit. An update to spirits would be nice so I could actually help trigger stuff on my main. -
08-26-2011, 02:05 AMKarbuncleNot sure, Can put up Shock Spikes before hand, Then have Stun-ga Ready, Shock spikes add more stun, keep him alive longer. He can tank pretty well in places like Abyssea, 87.5% PDT Goes a long way, and he's a bit more disposable than a WAR.Quote:
Originally Posted by Malamasala
But as a side note, I see its biggest use as you stated, giving ramuh hate after a sleepga to give BLMs time to sleep again when mobs wake up.
It has uses, Just need to think hard of them. -
08-26-2011, 02:09 AMMalamasalaProbably. I tend to never use the PDT atmas because I'm so often in parties and it seems more motivated to deal damage than to attempt to steal hate from other jobs to tank.Quote:
He can tank pretty well in places like Abyssea, 87.5% PDT Goes a long way, and he's a bit more disposable than a WAR.
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08-26-2011, 02:11 AMKorpgWhich is why they give Shock Squall such a high enmity gain. Sleepga still has a lot of enmity associated with it, but with all the enmity down gear a BLM wears, doesn't really give them that much enmity, at least enough enmity that a cure 4 would take away. So, they give AoE Stun higher enmity to give Ramuh all the hate and as long as Ramuh stays out, he will die way before any BLMs will.Quote:
Originally Posted by Karbuncle
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08-26-2011, 04:07 AMDallasBet someone will kite multiple mobs solo with this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Malamasala
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08-26-2011, 05:08 AMTannloreWonder if I can relive my days of swam kiting as a bard from EQ. lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Dallas
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08-26-2011, 07:18 AMMieraMy only suggestion would be to use this to grab the attention of many mobs to de-aggro off people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Karbuncle
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08-26-2011, 07:25 AMMieraDoes it get rid of Doom? Cause hat would be even more worthwhile. >.>Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonlionheart
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08-26-2011, 08:19 AMEconomizerConsidering that SE pretty much told White Mages "lolno" to having Cursna have better odds of removing Doom based on Healing Magic Skill, and Benediction doesn't even have a 100% chance of removing Doom (I mean, WTF?!), I highly doubt that Summoners will have anything better then an enhanced chance of removing it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Miera
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08-26-2011, 12:00 PMSoundwaveThis is the only thing I can see a main use of it, considering SE said all jobs adjustments will be focused on end game type of events etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Miera
Nice example would be Gurfurlur the Menacing adds
Also more curious to the actual AoE range of Shock Squall? -
08-26-2011, 12:28 PMMieraAh, yeah guess it was asking for too much. :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Economizer
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08-26-2011, 12:47 PMEconomizerConsidering how much I hate Doom, I don't even care about game balance anymore. If a Summoner is what it takes to 100% remove it, I'll run with that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Miera
I think what will probably happen is that, since it is on a pact timer, Summoners will have a better then single casting of Cursna change to remove Doom with this, but not 100% so that SE can teach Summoners the misery that White Mages have had to face for years.
Also, aside from on targets with multiple debuffs, Summoning Magic skill is probably going to have no affect on removal chances either. Also, it probably won't remove the effects of Enfeebling Songs, just like Esuna or Benediction can't. But all this is just my guess. -
08-26-2011, 01:14 PMMiera
Yeah, I am pretty sure the new Ward will be as Limited as Spring Water is.
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08-26-2011, 01:19 PMSoundwaveThe range is 1-100 skill per 1 Enfeeble why would they change it to chance now to get rid of doom?Quote:
Originally Posted by Economizer
As it was quoted...
Yes it will vary based on your summoning skill. If chance is the case here, then this is right up the ball park with BP's like Ecliptic growl etc.Quote:
Depending on the level of your summoning magic skill, the number of status ailments removed will vary.
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08-26-2011, 01:26 PMDallasIt would be messy, but the hate followed by the long stun should give time to flee. I always hated retreat dual kiting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tannlore
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08-26-2011, 01:30 PMEconomizerIF this new ability gets rid of Doom, I wouldn't expect it to have more then a chance of doing so. The skill has only been said to affect the amount of debuffs removed, not the success rate on debuffs with non-100% remove rates (basically, Doom).Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundwave
With regard to skill, I was referring to the fact that Healing Magic skill has nothing to do with removal rates, unless we misunderstood what SE said for the White Mage Q&A.
I'm not even saying that Summoner shouldn't be able to remove this debuff, just that based on past enfeebling removal effects, I wouldn't expect the new ability to be any better then Benediction at removing debuffs. -
08-26-2011, 09:00 PMSoranika
Field testing! Can I have it!? No point in anymore speculations, just wait for it to come out and go test.
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08-27-2011, 12:12 AMKorpgOnly problem comes from having Doom, and spamming that BP to get it removed. Which might be hard to do considering that even Cursna isn't higher than 33% or so with capped healing magic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Soranika
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08-27-2011, 02:16 AMEconomizerIt is hard to tell, but in the White Mage manifesto, SE pretty much said that "no, skill does not and will not help" if I'm not mistaken. My capped healing magic never helped me remove the ailment any more then stacking as much haste as I could and getting lucky. For reference:Quote:
Originally Posted by Korpg
Of course, like half the Q&A, it was rather ambiguous, and between the lack of White Mages active on the forums and SE's attention permanently focused on other jobs, stuff like even something small like getting a clear answer about this is probably not going to happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Camate
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I know this is all just speculation, but it is well educated speculation based on what SE has done in the past. If the bloodpact actually has a chance of removing Doom, I think it might be elevated over Cursna's chance (this would make sense, considering the longer BP timer)... of course, this may be asking for too much, as even the "mighty" Benediction has no more chance of removing Doom then Cursna does. -
08-27-2011, 03:20 AMTannlore
So Camate can we get some verification on doom and this BP please?
*Sets down a Séance table and puts the big crystal ball on it*
"Oooohh great SE devs... we call you to this table to answer our questions.... Tell us about Doom and Carby's new BP... Tell us please....." -
08-27-2011, 03:29 AMRazushuGiven the much higher recast, it would only be fair if Soothing Ruby had a higher %chance to remove doom than cursna.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tannlore
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08-27-2011, 03:40 AMTannloreGiven SE's track record... I assume nothing until testing or they say otherwise.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razushu
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08-27-2011, 03:42 AMRazushuYeah same here, just saying how it should work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tannlore
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08-27-2011, 08:00 AMSoundwave
I bet all my gil it will not remove doom, if so....poor holy water prices.
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08-27-2011, 11:38 AMSoranika
I can't imagine people ignoring holy waters for doom to use a SMN instead to be a doom cure slave. Well... maybe outside abyssea.
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08-27-2011, 02:34 PMZemarinI really don't need a JA that eats more MP~ Unless its Like Hasso and just increase perp.cost by like 2-3 other then that what's the point? Make Elemental Siphon MP useless? Seriously Why not Make Defender eat Pld's HP, or Enmity Douse Cost MP for BLM? Or Hasso Steal HP... Or Velocity Shot Lock WS... I think its so Silly to add another MP cosuming JA on a Job that literally bleeds MP. At which point makes me wonder what was the point of Elemental Siphon....Quote:
For example, we are thinking about something like, “reset the recast time by expending a set amount of MP.” As we have stated in the threads for other jobs, this is just one example.
There is a possibility of the effects being changed drastically, so please keep posting your feedback.
Summoner needs it just as much as bst does but obviously SE u proved ur point ur point, even dragoon's PET WYVERN got more love from u then an avatar has... u simply think u can thro one wishy washy bp on in and its just gonna be good.Quote:
We have no plans to add the “Stay” command outside of beastmasters.
And this is what hinders summoner probably the most... No Avatar really excels much at anything than the next,, all an avatar Identity determines is what BP's u can use... Unlike BST who can Have a certain Pet fullfill a Certain role. I can pretty much assume that was NOT the initial Idea behind SMN to begin with as well.. Otherwise what Was the point of the Spirits? This Is Simply SE's Sad idea of turning whatever job they can't fix so easily into a Gimped BLM Counterfit.Quote:
By implementing different stats for each avatar, we are afraid certain avatars will be selected disproportionately frequently and the variance of avatars will be limited. There is a possibility of being able to alter the stats of avatars by equipping gear, but basically we would like avatars to be chosen based on their elements.
I agree to BP:Rage it might not be so smart, as per BP:Ward is concerned the timer has been most detrimental to it.. none of the buffs that come from avas are that good to make having a 60s recast on BP ward justified. It's what limits summoner's ability to contribute much of anything to a group, mainly cuz BP:Ward can be very unreliable esp at crucial moments.Quote:
"I would like Blood Pacts to be changed to the charge format."
This would drastically change the operation of Blood Pacts, so we have no plans of making this change. We plan on adjusting the timing of Blood Pacts by adding an ability that shortens the recast time.
Along with a whole other slew of Things... Avatar's ward needs a Change, I think more beneficial effects should come along with avatars favor....(Stats boost, acc boost, actual dmg mitigation, etc) .
Summoner needs the "Stay" Command.... in order to Make Favor Worthwhile.... otherwise get rid of Favor and just cut avatar costs.... please.
Last but not least What irks me the most is the inability to create light/darkness with Summons even tho I can create nearly any other SC
Also What about avatar MP? how come I can't utilize the Avatar's MP?
Maybe not use their mp for BP but to buff the Avatar or heal it or something, instead of having to have some temp. item that I can't have on me all the time.
Then we look at bard/cor which spends no mp and do better magic/phys dmg with better buffs then we look back to summoner and wonder what was this person smoking when he made this statement.Quote:
• MP Consumption
The MP cost for Blood Pact: Ward abilities are set rather high because the effects they grant are AoE; however, they are designed to elicit a higher level of benefit when used to support a party.
Anyways enough of that nonsense last thing I have to say is that out Avatar's NORMAL attack Damage and Delay is just Horrible.... seriously make me wanna gnaw my eyes out. I think DRG Wyverns can Out Damage Avatars in a heart beat.