Any new HNM coming?

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Originally Posted by Natenn

Yea there is something wrong with it, whats the point in everyone having the exact same things? MMO like that are dull, im asking for diversity here, not everyone to be uniformed.

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Then wear diff things than other people?

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Originally Posted by Natenn

Yea there is something wrong with it, whats the point in everyone having the exact same things? MMO like that are dull, im asking for diversity here, not everyone to be uniformed.

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Look at it this way too:

It's also the developers' fault for not implementing a system where you can change how you wear your gear. Like for example rolling up your right sleeves, or being able to hang a small nail from Bahamut's claw off your belt as a trophy. Just because everyone has the same gear, doesn't mean they all wear it the same.

Think outside the box.

Maby im not explaining it right, lets try this: Say MMOs are like the olympics. People from different areas of the world are all here competing, NOW, what if the prizes for first, second, third, and ppl who didn't even place, were all the Gold cup? There would be no incentive to strive for first since even if you ran say 1 mile in a min the guy who took 5m+ gets the exact same reward. Then no one cares afterward about who came in what place. Primevil brew slaughtered w/e challenge developers had in mind, who cares if someone can kill something hard w/o brew? The point is if ppl can take the easy way they will.Every MMO is an epeen contest XI is no exception. If you play an MMO and want everything and everyone to be equal then thats your way, dont try and make the game that one way just so you can be like that 2nd or 3rd ect winner and destroy all meaning of the first place spot.

Bring back the old HNM system please in some way, its 2011, im sure theres a practicle way around bots by now.

That example couldn't be any more off base.

Gold medals aren't comparable to gear. Why? Because a gold medal does nothing but sit there. My gold medal would be identical to yours.

Even if you have the same gear as someone else, its not identical because how you use that gear makes a huge diff in what you get out of it.

If you depend on gear to be better than or stand out as compared to someone else, then you're doing it wrong. Stand out based on being a better player.

Basically what you're saying is that you can only be better than another player if you have better gear than them.

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

That example couldn't be any more off base.

Gold medals aren't comparable to gear. Why? Because a gold medal does nothing but sit there. My gold medal would be identical to yours.

Even if you have the same gear as someone else, its not identical because how you use that gear makes a huge diff in what you get out of it.

If you depend on gear to be better than or stand out as compared to someone else, then you're doing it wrong. Stand out based on being a better player.

Basically what you're saying is that you can only be better than another player if you have better gear than them.

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You could tie those gold medals around your hands and use it to climb a giant pole to get an arrow. THEREFOR YOUR ARGUMENT IS inVALID>

No, basically what im saying is, gear should reflect skill lvl. In that regard claiming should be hard, and the fights even harder then that. But you come off as all "No competition for anything plz". If SE not gonna make HNM in the traditional sense then make it getting a pop exceedingly difficult idc. Seeing bad players in good gear is sickening to me. Hoping these voidwatch are all hard with time limits or else they depop or rage after X amount of time.

Instead of flaming on me, what would you suggest to the idea of new "HNM"? How would you set it up? Make it all easy so everyone can kill with out strategy and little to no effort? Thats basically what abyssea is now.

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Originally Posted by Natenn

No, basically what im saying is, gear should reflect skill lvl. In that regard claiming should be hard, and the fights even harder then that. But you come off as all "No competition for anything plz". If SE not gonna make HNM in the traditional sense then make it getting a pop exceedingly difficult idc. Seeing bad players in good gear is sickening to me. Hoping these voidwatch are all hard with time limits or else they depop or rage after X amount of time.

Instead of flaming on me, what would you suggest to the idea of new "HNM"? How would you set it up? Make it all easy so everyone can kill with out strategy and little to no effort? Thats basically what abyssea is now.

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No it shouldn't. The difficulty should be winning the fight, Not beating the Bots.

a System like what was in place for PW and AV (large Work-filled Build up to Pop NM) Would be perfect. Its difficult but remains an Obtainable goal over time. Not just when the window is open

Did you read the 2nd half of my post or just rage went off after you seen "claiming"?

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Originally Posted by Natenn

Did you read the 2nd half of my post or just rage went off after you seen "claiming"?

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I read the second half, Doesn't mean i don't disagree with the first half.

Did you see the second half of my post agreeing with the second half of your post?

Secondly, I'm far form raging. however, Your offensive attitude is understandable i suppose. Consider I'm nearly the only one in this entire thread trying to address your points in any calm fashion, while the rest basically call you a superiority-complex having douche.

But I mean, If you wanna see me rage, I can gladly do it. Considering i feel, out of all my posts toward you, I have never once "Flammed" you. Unless you consider "Disagreeing with your points" Flaming.

More directed at Cream, not you. I don't see to many ideas out there.

I see. Well then you can disregard that.

As its obvious we have similar views on how endgame should end up.

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Originally Posted by Natenn

No, basically what im saying is, gear should reflect skill lvl. In that regard claiming should be hard, and the fights even harder then that. But you come off as all "No competition for anything plz". If SE not gonna make HNM in the traditional sense then make it getting a pop exceedingly difficult idc. Seeing bad players in good gear is sickening to me. Hoping these voidwatch are all hard with time limits or else they depop or rage after X amount of time.

Instead of flaming on me, what would you suggest to the idea of new "HNM"? How would you set it up? Make it all easy so everyone can kill with out strategy and little to no effort? Thats basically what abyssea is now.

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That's the thing though, gear only reflects the skill of a GROUP, not of individuals. Do you know how many gimp ridills , and adabeurks I was outdamaing in my brown belt, scorpion harness, republigar (when I first dinged 75 lol) mnk?

Just because they were able to get the HNM items doesn't mean they were good players.

You have the people who play X job and get gear in their HNM for Y job, get on Y job and utterly fail at it, etc.

There were always horrible players w/ good gear. If you're just noticing this at abyssea release, then you must have selective vision.

As far as the second half goes, again, 21-24 hour claim has 0 to do with the difficulty of the NM, so while I have no direct solution, I don't see where 21-24 hour NMs would be the solution, either.

Why are you still arguing with him it's obvious he doesn't care about hard HNMs just having amazing gear no one else should be allowed to have.

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

That's the thing though, gear only reflects the skill of a GROUP, not of individuals. Do you know how many gimp ridills , and adabeurks I was outdamaing in my brown belt, scorpion harness, republigar (when I first dinged 75 lol) mnk?

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I'd like to add the quality of gear doesn't even necessarily make the group skilled. A lot of LSs are freaking pathetic yet have so many bodies and bots they get the best gear anyways. The fact of the matter is really by the time ToAU was released anyone with a decent sized group could do kings and such.

I concur, young sir.

Im saying SE should MAKE IT so gear reflects skill, make another super hard NM in the traditional sense like AV/PW but make it so you don't need 30 ppl to kill, make an NM thats difficult to an alliance, put it in a BC idc. the best suff should be HARD to obtain.

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Originally Posted by Natenn

Im saying SE should MAKE IT so gear reflects skill, make another super hard NM in the traditional sense like AV/PW but make it so you don't need 30 ppl to kill, make an NM thats difficult to an alliance, put it in a BC idc. the best suff should be HARD to obtain.

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There is no hard in this. Once you know how a mob ticks it's not hard to find a strategy that works 100% of the time. And before you say anything about AV/PW remember that working strategies where found for those too. Any kind of superiority you want to feel will fade once this happens.

I wouldn't mind a more superior type of endgame/HNM scene returning but im posting after being in an Abys group with a few very very very terrible players who have the same stuff as me.

Although I don't agree with everything Nat says, I am really missing the old scene. You had five types of players, the players that were great and had great gear, the players that werent that good but cheated/botted so they still got great gear, the players that sucked and were noobish and had terrible gear, and finally the players that were good players but kept getting screwed out of claims for the good stuff.


Orson/Cream/Surreal, I can understand why you guys dont want endgame to return to what it was, thats understandable. You're in the player base that was decently well skilled. I know you're from LTC Orson and that LS was amazing. Thing is, i am personally tired of an endgame where I am equal to a "noob". I guess it makes me look like an asshole but honestly.. I worked hard for my gears, I enjoyed it and the game and I am good at my jobs, average at worst.

If you cannot play your jobs well and work well in team oriented events, or even do things well on you're own, why should your gear be equal to that of a dedicated, hard working, team player? Or even someone who prefers solo/duo play but does their job real well.


Abyssea enourages people to suck/not care and not pay attention. Besides procs (which is lol itself) you're looking at an almost mindless event that is built around spamming. Its actually similiar to camping but camping was a lot of fun if u had the time and patience (kings aside). LTC didnt bot HNMs and they got quit a bit of cerb,khim,tia,di,sw. They even controlled them quite a bit. Camping was mindless but it required dedication, thats an undeniable fact and you couldn't suck. It required a Minmum amount of decent skill. You remember 4hour tiamats? No stuns khims? It does take some skill.

Abyssea? Although its wonderful for casual stuff and offers a ton of stuff, for the more higher quality player, its just a spamfest that offers no real fun besides the 10k Blizzard 5s and 30k wildfires. And u know someone gets those numbers im sure...

That's really the only thing to it. Hard? Easy doesnt even compare. It is x1000 easier than anything FFXI has ever experienced in its entire lifespam and disencourages everything the game was built around.

Think about the future. I doubt any new expansions/add ons are coming. I'm sorry but I would have rather the game stayed at the point it was. At least had Longevity and alternate methods for non campers. Odin was easier to get access too than Nidhogg, and thats a fact. The only items people missed out on really were khim,tia,di,sw items and most of it wasnt even needed. Luxury items and gil only, sup. The people that chose to spend hours upon hours camping didnt benefit outside having gil for relics and hauteclair/gaiters. Hauteclair always sucked once mythic ws came out, if u werent using joyeues u failed at life and gaiters were not needed one bit. I sold mine, twice.

HNM camping offered a luxury of items and gil, thats it. Now luxury shouldnt be exclusive to camping and spending hours searcing for a mob, I agree with that but luxury SHOULD come from more dedication, more effort. If SE implemented measure that made botting/cheating on world spawns 100% ineffective, do you really think all the hnm world spawn shells would have giveen up? No, they would have just kept it tighter and kept trying. That player base did cause a lot of drama but they were dedicated to the game and the scene because they enjoyed camping. Did some just wanna block others? Yes but that is not the majority, honestly. Most were just so into camped and enjoyed it,or just wanted some king gear.

If someone told me they just wanted to block xx from getting such and such I would be like, wtf? If you enjoy camping, great. If you want the gear and wanna work for it, awesome but block someone just to be superior? That's really pathetic and i honestly never knew anyone like that in my scenes.

There should be some luxury content available to players who are talented, dedicated players. Everyone should get a chance at the same stuff but the game shouldnt limit content to those who aren't willing to be dedicated do well on their jobs or EVEN have the free time. If people enjoy camping, I think SE shouldnt hold back on adding such content because another player, who doesnt want to put forth the effort and time, wont get a chance at it.

The same applies for non camps. Abyssea should continue. It just needs to end as the highest quality of endgame content, and the new content should offer some some more elite quality entertainment that keeps the player base engaged and dedicated. Content that requires focus, team work and or high skill level for duo/solo a bit of luck(to make things interesting)and is fair. I do not think the unfair part of long world spawns was because of the timer. It was unfair because of the cheaters.


Theres nothing wrong with wanting to be a superior player if you're good and dedicated and I'm not ashamed to admit it. I did however just get out of an abys party where this SMN in 5/5 af3 telling me how avatar hate REALLY WORKS in a pet party. I bet you can probably guess who died? Yeah, no. I want higher quality content available to the better player. Learning how game mechanics work to better how you play (i said play.. not cheat) should be rewarded and although that reward should be available to any player, it should REQUIRE more effort/time/skill on their behalf!

btw, Camps didnt require skill. It was just a rush and a lot of fun. Anticipating pop and rushing/searching. It was awesome for a bit when you had the time. But lol@ skill to kill that stuff.

You know, everyone should just do what they want to do with their game. Stop being inconsiderate jerks, and stop being whiney lil babies. If you want gear and enjoy the process, go for it. Don't cheat or block others... And if you don't have the time, will power or means to do something in game, do stuff you can do. Don't cry about how you can't do such and such because you don't have the means. That's not really anyones problem and shouldnt effect someone elses activities. The same applies to cheaters.

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Originally Posted by Natenn

Im saying SE should MAKE IT so gear reflects skill, make another super hard NM in the traditional sense like AV/PW but make it so you don't need 30 ppl to kill, make an NM thats difficult to an alliance, put it in a BC idc. the best suff should be HARD to obtain.

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Both AV and PW weren't hard. They were just plain broken. Aside from that it's obvious that you do understand difficulty has no correlation to whether a HNM is popped or free spawn. That said it boils down too 2 things luck and free time. If that's the case I'm not sure how you can argue that only the best players will get the best gear with that system.

That said though I'd like to point out SE is adjusting kings to make them more accessible. I'm guessing they're are beginning to realize that it's a tiny minority of people that like the king's system.

@Ane
I still like the idea of working as good sized team and I will admit at times chasing down NMs and claiming could be fun. The problem was that frustrating elements just out weighed the fun.

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Originally Posted by Mrbeansman

There is no hard in this. Once you know how a mob ticks it's not hard to find a strategy that works 100% of the time. And before you say anything about AV/PW remember that working strategies where found for those too. Any kind of superiority you want to feel will fade once this happens.

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We found out how to kill AV the "right" way and not BW(before nerf) / PD Zerging? Or were you just talking about BW / PD Zerging.

Genuinely curious if i missed the right way >.>; I know it was found how to lock 2hours eventually, Least i recall reading it. I used to keep up on it so much it coulda been a dream.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

We found out how to kill AV the "right" way and not BW(before nerf) / PD Zerging? Or were you just talking about BW / PD Zerging.

Genuinely curious if i missed the right way >.>; I know it was found how to lock 2hours eventually, Least i recall reading it. I used to keep up on it so much it coulda been a dream.

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To my knowledge there has never been a straight up tank and spank win.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

We found out how to kill AV the "right" way and not BW(before nerf) / PD Zerging? Or were you just talking about BW / PD Zerging.

Genuinely curious if i missed the right way >.>; I know it was found how to lock 2hours eventually, Least i recall reading it. I used to keep up on it so much it coulda been a dream.

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No wasn't talking about the "right" way I said we found a way.

Idea: add new kings since you are nerfing old ones, 21-24hr or 3-5 day and make the pop area the whole zone for places that are huge with tons of obstacles to get around so they can't be claimed immediately. Don't let HNMs die. Im hoping new ones are planned for Lv99 with this slaughter house move they just pulled on kings.

Yes and please add alternate means to obtain the gear VIA BCNM, so it's fair to casual players too. Don't take the camping aspect from the game, just add alternate means to obtaining the rewards and also invent cleverrandom ways of the spawn to prevent botting.

I don't think they should put drops in any BCNM, if they don't wanna try to claim they shouldn't be rewarded for QQing to devs on forum.

Good Idea.

I think they should be 1-20 Day spawns, and in order for it to spawn someone has to be actively camping it for at least 15 hours. Furthermore, I really think to make it enjoyable, the NM should only have ~0.5% Drop rate on its good items. So its really really hardcore, So when I'm in town, I can feel like I'm cool. I need a Bigger E-peen.

And they should spawn in the middle of Soul Flayers and Imps, True-Sight mobs, SO while you're actively camping them you're forced to fight things. and if anyone dies it resets its spawn timer, regardless of it being killed or not. That'd be super fun. Also, At least 2 Souflayers and an Imp need to be killed every 10 minutes in order for the HNM to pop, if it doesn't happen, the Window Resets back to 1-20 days. That'd be SUPER Hardcore.

They should also make sure it drops the best items in the game, So people are forced into those Soulflayer-Imp camps to get these items, for at least 1-20 days. That way the armor is really exclusive and rare. It'd be so much fun if you ask me. Days of the Casuals need to end.

Edit:(Hurr Hurr I'm being sarcastic.)

Once a month spawns or gtfo

Once a month fine by me, stop bein mad Karby. Responses like that are probably why kings were just made harder to get.

I thought it was rather funny~ I giggled when i typed it. You seem to be the mad one :(

I can claim, so no, i wouldn't be mad.

Thinking process of a anti world spawn person through the eyes of me: "Hmmmmm HNM drop best gear but its a once per day spawn, -le goes to where it pops-, OMG OTHER PPL!? how dare i not be handed these drops w/o earning/trying to claim, -QQs on forums-, -SE nerfs said HNM making it harder to get and lowers drop rates-." Its apparent from the latest move by SE on the "kings" crying will only make things worse. Not only would it now be harder to gain access to bb item/king specific drops/ect but QQers have effectivly ruined the game for ppl who liked camping them.

Nah. I'm wouldn't be upset.

I simply wouldn't camp them :) I can have fun in this game without owning the best e-peen gear.

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Originally Posted by Natenn

I can claim, so no, i wouldn't be mad.

Thinking process of a anti world spawn person through the eyes of me: "Hmmmmm HNM drop best gear but its a once per day spawn, -le goes to where it pops-, OMG OTHER PPL!? how dare i not be handed these drops w/o earning/trying to claim, -QQs on forums-, -SE nerfs said HNM making it harder to get and lowers drop rates-." Its apparent from the latest move by SE on the "kings" crying will only make things worse. Not only would it now be harder to gain access to bb item/king specific drops/ect but QQers have effectivly ruined the game for ppl who liked camping them.

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oh well, not everyone can be happy.

Hey man, congratulations! :)

I LOVE U CREAM!

Also! I laughed at your post natenn on the last page. "OMG OTHER PEOPLE!?" lol. Yeah, as if nid back in the day would be wandering free. w

I probably should of called thread "Any new timed HNMs comming?" Its really boring w/o an HNM endgame, i usually log on for an hour or two and sit in MH hoping something happens but its like a ghost town.

imo, any new hnm needs to be force pop, or COMPLETELY random. i mean spawn anywhere, at anytime.. no window, no placeholders. no shortlist of areas it can spawn either, i mean ANYWHERE. make it impossible to camp. make it so the only way people find it is by doing something else, and stumbling upon it. that would at least be interesting.

as for drops, i think a random hnm should have a crazy awesome loot pool. make it drop EVERYTHING. so finding it and killing it is like winning the lottery, BUT every one of it's drops should still be attainable somewhere else. not all in one place, but 1 or 2 items here, another couple here, so on, so forth. make it's only "unique" drop a title.

actually, i suppose that would be a decent way to revive the old style hnm's to, give them these epic loot pools, but then fragment those pools among other more accessible content.



but if you insist on having long timed hnm's as the ONLY option to attain top tier gear, then you're obviously motivated by some schoolyard urge to go "nana look what i have and you don't!" however, unlike school, we can very easily quit FFXI when it becomes a miserable experience dominated by "the cool kids"

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Originally Posted by Natenn

I probably should of called thread "Any new timed HNMs comming?" Its really boring w/o an HNM endgame, i usually log on for an hour or two and sit in MH hoping something happens but its like a ghost town.

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Actually, That makes things clearer i think.

It simply sounds to me like you grow bored of the game and wish there was something to force you to break the monotony. It also seems like your friends don't do as much anymore either.

I think you're seeing "HNMs' Through Nostalgia as a means that always forced you to be active. now in the days where you find yourself sitting in the mog house, you wish for something to force you to be active, Like an NM spawning.

I don't think you want new HNMs, I think you just want something to force you to be active, because you grow bored of the game. Theres nothing wrong with growing bored of a game however, Even if theres repeatedly new fresh content, you'll eventually grow bored of even your most favorite game.

More like sitting in canyon doing Glavoids for 10 ppl gets annoying. I wanna do stuff other ppl can't do. Abyssea the only thing to do, and since VWNM gonna give cruor buffs it just makes things even worse. More crutches for the sloppy portion of players left.

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Originally Posted by Atomic_Skull

There are only three possibilities for HNM "challenge"

A. A 100% win strategy is figured out, and it becomes easy.

B. It's impossible to kill (e.g. oldschool Absolute Virtue)

C. Whether you win or loose is a lottery based on what it does. Either you get lucky and win or you are unlucky and it does something and destroys you.

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SOLUTION.

Alter Point C. so that it does a devastating effect when it reaches 50% HP (ensuring that all tanks, healers, mages and DD need to be topped off with near full HP to survive), instead of having it "luckily destroy you".

Mix Point A. with C. so that the win strategy changes on the fly, depending on what "Phase" the NM is in. This would force players to be on their toes all the time, raising the difficulty significantly. Have AT LEAST 3 or more of these "Phases" that would play out in a random order (very important).

The "Phase" shifting would occur at randomly timed intervals, to ensure that nobody loses focus, or that it feels too robotic. These timed intervals would also be a random amount, (such as 1, 3 and 5 minutes) and that order would never be repeated in a single fight.

EXAMPLE: Dragon Type~ NM

Phase 1: On the ground.
- The Dragon is highly susceptible to melee damage, but is Resistant to Magic and Ranged Attacks.
- The Dragon dishes out high melee damage and enfeebles to the front line jobs/
- The Melee and Tank have their work cut out for them in this stage. Melee needs to do damage quick, but not pull hate off the Tank and die. The Tank needs keep hate from the Melee so that they don't pull hate and get KO'd.

Phase 2: Standing on Hind Legs, Wings Glowing.
- The Dragon is highly resistant to Ranged Attacks and Melee Attacks, but Magic cures the Dragon or is reflected back to the caster.
- The Dragon deals incredible high AoE damage that targets a single person (usually the tank)
- The Melee have to get out of range quick, to avoid being KO'd by it's heavy AoE.
- The Healers have their work cut out for them in this phase. They have to make sure the Tank stays alive and is topped off to survive his massive damage.
- The Mages need to not nuke, so that the Dragon won't get healed/reflect damage to them.

Phase 3: Flying in the Air
- The Dragon is highly susceptible to Ranged Attacks and Magic Damage
- The Dragon dishes out Ranged AoE Attacks on random targets with no enmity table.
- The Entire Alliance would have to spread out, in order for their to be less damage taken as a whole.
- The Ranged Attackers and Mages get to work and blast him hard in this Phase.
- The Tanks and Melee position themselves so that if they get hit with an AoE blast from above, its not near other members.

Random Time rotation of Phases.

Phase 1: lasts 3 minutes
Phase 3: lasts 5 minutes ======= Section 1
Phase 2: lasts 1 minute

Phase 3: lasts 1 minute
Phase 2: lasts 3 minutes ======= Section 2
Phase 1: lasts 1 minute

Phase 2: lasts 5 minutes
Phase 3: lasts 3 minutes ======= Section 3
Phase 1: lasts 5 minutes

You can mix and match each section, and there would be countless possibilities for the Phases to be random each and every battle.

Adding this sort of extreme dynamics, would crank up the difficulty and make the fight rely heavily on focus, teamwork and coordination. Rather than it being just solely based on gear/stats/equipment.

And...

Point B. is irrelevant. Absolute Virtue was not impossible to defeat, just extremely difficult +3.

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Originally Posted by Natenn

More like sitting in canyon doing Glavoids for 10 ppl gets annoying. I wanna do stuff other ppl can't do. Abyssea the only thing to do, and since VWNM gonna give cruor buffs it just makes things even worse. More crutches for the sloppy portion of players left.

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Unless you did AV/PW at 75 cap, you've never done anything the majority of people can't do.