Summoner in Colonization Reives = Broken

Why not try to debuff and buff to get points if you're having trouble healing? Honestly, even with two summoners you shouldn't have a problem landing heals. You say that summoners directly reduce the experience of others, but honestly so do any actions from anyone who isn't just DD, and half the time DD zerg down the roots and ruin it for everyone anyway. You just need to find what isn't being occupied. I can get awesome bayld as blu, but all it takes is someone occupying my niche to reduce bayld, so I use different spells. Start landing paralyzes and debuffs on mobs, people rarely do that and it's extremely helpful.

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Originally Posted by Malphius

I was very specific when I said abyssea solo. Don't see how that could be misconstrued.

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Because Abyssea is stupid easy and irrelevant content in the grand scheme of things when almost every job in there is able to do things far beyond its wildest dreams...

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I didn't say SMN should be nerfed. I've never said that. Again the SMN community putting words in my mouth. I said the event needs adjusting. The result is SMN loses an ability it can't use anywhere else in the game.

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Exactly, inside of this event its losing an ability from its current status, that sounds like a nerf to me!

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I can't talk about Abyssea but you can talk about WoE? That's the pot calling the kettle black.

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Because WoE does not have a ton of Atma which make every job overpowered beyond its wildest dreams, yes, WoE is another event just like Reives are, without any of the Atma, Abyssites, or Cruor buffs that Abyssea has.

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People still use SMN and PD in Odin and Legion. Present day. Not abused at all. If you don't do these events that's your fault. I've saw huge offensive BP numbers in Legion. Maybe it's the players not the job?

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Using PD as a primary use for a job is abuse in and of itself, no different than SCH was abused for Embrava, you brought the job for a single ability, everything else it did was simply a bonus to make the job less useless after that fact. If you want a DD in Legion you do not bring a SMN, you bring a WAR or DRK, the fact they do a few good BPs for damage is simply a bonus which offsets its normal worthlessness.

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How many SMN's do you see in WoE btw? Hoards. You're helping me here as that part of my position has been that this is a tactic you will start seeing more and more as this expansion goes on.

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Oh no, another event where SMN can actually perform as a job rather than an Invincibility Whore, what will the world do!?

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Originally Posted by Malphius

1. It's not leveling the playing field. It's destroying it in favor of SMN.

2. You do not know that and based off my on use of Cure 4 I find it a dubious claim. Regardless again that would be for SE to adjust as well with point gains.

3. You are saying exactly that with your argument you won't just admit it. In fact you just did just almost say it directly. Again telling a mage to melee. You've seen a 1k hexa on a root? Cause WHM sure won't last out in the open swinging at the PLD's mobs.

4. You're right for once. It's insane to try and get you to acknowledge any sort of reason. I'm going to stop.

5. PLD does not have an unfair advantage. If functions exactly the same in Reives as it does every where else in the game. BLM or BLU can sleep anything they want anywhere in the game. Again these are the standard operating mechanics of those jobs. I also would argue that trying to keep all these slept is suicide but to each his own. A well organized group could probably swing it.

6. I do see the slope. A very uphill battle to meet or even come close to performing a support job roll vs a SMN in Reives.

7. Only DD get rewarded with this broken game play mechanic. All the other mages get told to go away or melee.

You really do fail to see any of my points from anything other than someone that really likes to play SMN and anything for SMN is just.

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wth do all the numbers point to? lol

no, was beating on the mobs--was consistantly popping off right around 1k, depending on the level of boost at the time. Never could get it to work out where I could busrt off a light or something though...was always gravitation or darkness... a little disappointing, but still fun.

And yes, I did take a beating (as noted in my previous posts). A few times when a mob got out of hand, I turned and reposed it (pesky wabbits). I evaded, I parried, I got hit, I regened, got the reive goal and had hp restored....got healed from the avatars....rinse/repeat. you know... all that good stuff that you see happen when you are on SAM. Off and on we had garuda, leviathin, and carby with us on one side, a garuda on the other--died twice when I went to that side with just one avatar, but still got 480 xp at the end even though I was idling in weakened state for most of it, which amused the hell out of me. After that, I opted to stay with the larger group for safety's sake.

getting the feeling you've never seiously meleed on WHM.... which is a real shame. WHINJA is fun. WHM/SAM is even more fun at times.

LOL.. I'm failing to see reason...when you've been provided concrete examples. ooooo... k.

Guess you weren't catching the reference to PLD. You have no problem with a PLD holding an entire reive, raking in all that credit while others are left with eeking out what they can by picking off the mobs until the nest gets beat down and it ends. But a SMN sustaining everyone so they have the same fair shot at rewards while pets beat down the roots/crag, that's a no-no and must go, even though this benefits everyone by meare virtue of extending the event longer.

The example of sleeping the mobs while the obstacle gets cleared is viable tactic... and used quite regularly I might add. I've even used my Shiva for it a few times to backup the BRD. But no... that's not robbing ANYONE of their opportunity for greater rewards....

And yes, I enjoy SMN... when I can use it well enough to be on it, but didn't come to it really until I found a niche for it with WotG fights. I have 10 jobs I can play, for the most part decently geared, but nothing amazing...always considered myself a casual player. Otherwise, I'm usually on something like NIN, SAM, MNK, WAR. Once in a while I get nostalgaic and blow things up on BLM (my first to 75 ages ago). For the most part these days, it's usually SMN or NIN, other jobs as needed for proc or to fill a role in a strategy--or if we are just wanting to mix things up for the helluvit.

Not sure why any of that matters, just commenting since you went there. My reason for posting in this thread is to preserve what I and apparently others see as being more or less fair for a job that is otherwise treated rather poorly by either SE or the players (in some cases both). It seams more like someone got upset because the ginger kid figured out a way to upstage them in an event they expected they had all rights to be top dog in, and regardless of how people try to show them ways to overcome the disparity, they just want to dig in their heals and cry foul over the whole deal. At least I've put some effort into substantiating my claim that there is something that someone can do to level the playing field....seems more like you are the one that is objecting to reasonable thought in that arena.

And I doubt that only DD are getting rewarded with athis "broken game mechanic". I wasn't just meleeing in my litle excursion. I was enfeebling, doing magic damage, dealing physical damage, taking damage, recovering damage. I could likely do the same on my BLM or my NIN, just haven't ventured out there with it yet to see how it behaves....simply because it's been so much easier with my heavier hitters (plus, I've been breaking off to farm items and skill guard on MNK here and there too, and changing all that gear out in moghouse is a pain).

So, in summation... no, I don't simply like to play SMN and see anything for SMN as being just. What I do see as being just is a mechanic that makes an otherwise difficult task easy to do. Their is no denying that having a prepared SMN in a reive makes it easier for everyone else there. It is also pretty obvious that without using this feature, SMN's rewards would be absurdly low, so low to the point that it could very well disuade their participation in the event (think back to BRD in campaign, ages ago I know, but it's kinda in line with it). Loosing the benefit of this mechanic could eventually make reives untenable if it causes participation to drop because of issues with survivablilty.

In light of these points, I would rather they not remove this feature but instead the players work to find an alternative way for everyone to participate. That is what I did. I had an idea founded entirely in my combined experiences with beseiged, campaign, and bastion for jobs that were not rewarde very well for their typical roles--and applied them to this event. And, was pleasently surprised when it actually worked out rather well.

There are alternatives to castrating a job in order to balance this event out.

There's a scary thought....where would the human race be if the solution to gender equality was castration.

Sorry, random thought that hit me after I typed that line....but the absurdity of the statement shows the absurdity of the proposal.

Job X can't progress well because job Y is better at doing something job X is supposed to be able to do, therefore take that away from job Y so that X can do it (although, less effectively in the scope of the event). It doesn't matter that that one thing is about the only thing that job Y can do to contribute significantly and that job A-X have lots of other ways they can contribute, or can otherwise rectify their issues. No, job Y, who basically has no other option but to repeatadly do this one thing over and over again to advance on par with everyone else, needs to learn it's role and shut it's mouth so that everyone else can be the winners, leaving job Y limping along at a reduced capacity.

Yeah.... job Y supporters are the unreasonable ones.

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Because Abyssea is stupid easy and irrelevant content in the grand scheme of things when almost every job in there is able to do things far beyond its wildest dreams...

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And SMN isn't? My point though was that WoE is also out dated. I do agree that WoE is more difficult. However when looking at the ability SMN have there it's not as big of a deal as the goal is to defeat the boss and you are rewarded with treasure. The reward from reives is points based upon creating large numbers in terms of cure or damage done. The ability in this event excludes an entire class from obtaining those rewards.

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Exactly, inside of this event its losing an ability from its current status, that sounds like a nerf to me!

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Nah just putting it on the same playing field as all the other mages.

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Exactly, inside of this event its losing an ability from its current status, that sounds like a nerf to me!

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SMN is more like SCH than a DD. I used to main SCH all the time till they changed embrava. But before hand I was perfectly happy with being used for Embrava and then spot curing or baby sitting the PLD. Like me the SMN's use PD and then spot cure and/or use offensive BP's on the NM's. Same thing in Odin. Why is this so different? What roll is it that the SMN community wants to fill?

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Oh no, another event where SMN can actually perform as a job rather than an Invincibility Whore, what will the world do!?

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Again plese tell me what event SMN is not welcome in. I can't think of one. I'm sorry you're not happy with one of the most powerful and most needed 2hrs in the game. That has nothing to do with this topic though which is that an entire job class is going to be pushed out of Reives and the only thing that SMN's can say is that they deserve to because they don't like playing SMN.

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Originally Posted by Siven

Why not try to debuff and buff to get points if you're having trouble healing? Honestly, even with two summoners you shouldn't have a problem landing heals. You say that summoners directly reduce the experience of others, but honestly so do any actions from anyone who isn't just DD, and half the time DD zerg down the roots and ruin it for everyone anyway. You just need to find what isn't being occupied. I can get awesome bayld as blu, but all it takes is someone occupying my niche to reduce bayld, so I use different spells. Start landing paralyzes and debuffs on mobs, people rarely do that and it's extremely helpful.

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While all those functions are useful to perform they are not useful in the accumulation of obtaining points. With DD vs DD it's very different. It's a race to the bottom not a race to the top. Enemies and roots/rocks/trees etc... have MASSIVE hp numbers so that any DD can pick a mob and spend some time on it thus fulfilling their function and obtaining Bayld. With mages it's a race to the top and the players around you have very low HP numbers. 1 BP ability from a SMN completely cures them full until another few AoE go off and the next SMN uses BP.

Moving to another zone would help but certain zones obtain better points than others. Certain zones have more reives than others. I also disagree with the "if you don't like it leave" philosophy. This game is very bandwagony. In two weeks tops there will be 10 SMN in the salt fields spamming BP's.

You made all valid points but the results are the same in the end.

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Originally Posted by Malphius

Nah just putting it on the same playing field as all the other mages.

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Actually, no. It lowers their potential in a major way. The other mages have considerably more options for increasing rewards in comparison. That seems to be a very important point that keeps getting missed.

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Originally Posted by RAIST

Think that's something that is being sorely neglected here... the overall reward for participation. Just looking at the rewards for hitting goals is not an accurate reflection. You continuosly get rewarded as time passes. Need to consider your overall earnings.

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Yeah, I tested out smn. You don't realy get as much as a DD can overall, it's just a LOT lazier.

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Originally Posted by Malphius

That has nothing to do with this topic though which is that an entire job class is going to be pushed out of Reives and the only thing that SMN's can say is that they deserve to because they don't like playing SMN.

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You cant come to an event because another job is taking your place? Level another job... It may not be SMN but guess what, I main RDM, I play it a ton when I can, but I get excluded from almost every event in the game. Your whining about not getting to get a lot of points in a single event insults me honestly, because my situation is much worse than yours is, yet you have to argue with everyone who disagrees for hours about how SMN is broken.

Simple truth incoming! You can deal without going in Reives and getting a ton of points, if you go on WHM and know it gets low points then you instantly chose to subject yourself to that sub-par point gain. The easiest solution to that problem is leveling another job, or dealing with the low points you chose anyways, end of story.

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Originally Posted by Demon6324236

You cant come to an event because another job is taking your place? Level another job... It may not be SMN but guess what, I main RDM, I play it a ton when I can, but I get excluded from almost every event in the game. Your whining about not getting to get a lot of points in a single event insults me honestly, because my situation is much worse than yours is, yet you have to argue with everyone who disagrees for hours about how SMN is broken.

Simple truth incoming! You can deal without going in Reives and getting a ton of points, if you go on WHM and know it gets low points then you instantly chose to subject yourself to that sub-par point gain. The easiest solution to that problem is leveling another job, or dealing with the low points you chose anyways, end of story.

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or <gasp> try something different...whatever that may be.

Very few things are "written in stone" with this game. You can usually find different ways to approach a problem within the game's framework, just sometimes takes a little more effort or planning is all.

Personally I like when a SMN shows up and starts spamming buffs I've already given out, that allows me to whip out the hammer and destroy things with my PLD buddy and hand out raises when BP timers are down and somebody gets floored. If someone wants to muscle in on healing and support I'll gladly move aside and then step back in to pick up the broken bodies, but not out of the kindness of my heart. In fact if I didn't get points for it I'd just let the dead people stay there. :)