In Favor of DPS Kits

[Azurarok]

Wanted to bring this topic up again since it's been popping up in the strike thread and related lately.

I think one of the bigger issues we clash on is how they should deal with healing downtime making the role as boring as it is. It's generally been an argument between:

A. Getting(returning) dps kits so we have more than one damage button to use
B. Reduce healing downtime so we spend less time hitting damage buttons

These aren't exactly mutually exclusive, but they do tend to be at odds with each other, and I lean pretty heavily on A over B.

With B, healing downtime will still increase as time passes and players get better gear and learn the fights, so it's kinda inevitable we eventually end up back to having more time to use our damage buttons even if requirements are initially higher.

It also offers very little to make the role enjoyable when doing things solo, like playing the MSQ, running FATES, deep dungeon, variant dungeons, etc. Those aren't insignificant imo, and I want the role to be enjoyable in all aspects of the game, not just group content.

Edit: This isn't to say that tanks/dps shouldn't get nerfs on their mit/heal tools. I personally don't really care if they do or don't adjust those tbh

[Ramiee]

It really should be both.
People who argue for only DPS want to play DPS and people who want to argue for only healing want to play a different MMO.

Healers need to do way more healing and they need to do more damage and have basic damage mechanics. It doesn't need to be anything like a rotation (maybe on sage if they want to go all in on green DPS) just something that removes the one button spam.
SCH being a dot mage made sense because you managed a pet and also had to manage damage or healing trade so the dots were present for consistency.
WHM had a couple of dots and different cast time attacks for movement management and long CD attacks for variety.
AST was incredibly similar to the current system because you made up for your lack of damage in versatility between shield or pure healing and buffing damage.
They weren't super advanced at most you were managing like 4 buttons regularly which was shorter than monk and dragoons main rotation GCDs.

These aren't complicated damage systems just something more than 1 button spam which is hillarious because back then healers has way more GCD healing due to ability heals being rare or expensive back then and the healing checks in ARR and especially HW were rough so healers had more damage options and were forced to do more healing. Now healers have no damage options and barely any healing requirements.

[Azurarok]

It really should be both.
People who argue for only DPS want to play DPS and people who want to argue for only healing want to play a different MMO.

I tried to think of a counterargument but you're probably right. I want the dot mage aspect of SMN we lost in EW on SCH, powerful long cast spells but various mobility/instant cast resources to stock up on WHM like BLM, and SGE to have proc-based combos like a physranged. I like healing with tanks, RDM, and DNC. I want SMN's physick usable, carbuncle's barrier be put on other party members, and MCH to have Bishop Autoturret and a Defibrillator rez. A lot of my wants tend to blur the lines between the trinity now that I think of it, and that's also kinda asking for a different MMO.

[Carighan]

I mean if we take a look at tanks (who have a simplified melee rotation) and we assume that the game gets rebalanced to both require more active tanking and also more active healing - which we have no indication so far that it's ever happening but let's assume for a moment - then it would follow that healers ought to have a slightly simplified caster set.

Now as all healers already have a DoT (good, although maybe we want to change this for 1-2 of them for variety), there's room for the following, easily, without overloading the already very crowded hotbars of healers:

Astrologian
Malefic gets replaced with a 1-2-3 autocombo of instant cast spells after Astral Draw. These are weaker than the current Malefic. After Umbral Draw, it goes back to the default, a 4-5-6 autocombo of slow-casting spells that deal more damage than current Malefic. Lightspeed probably reduced to 1 charge again to compensate.

Scholar
Current fairy gauge and the union removed. Every GCD-heal and Aetherflow-using heal adds 1-20 to the new fairy gauge, based on healing (shields not counted, only healing, overhealing is okay though). At any point, bar can be spent to turn Eos into Selene for 4 energy/second. Selene does not use Embrace, instead she casts a nuke on a target every time you cast either a nuke or a DoT on something, akin to summoner major summon assist nukes. Selene can be freely turned off/on as an oGCD.

White Mage
Lose nuke. Gain two extra DoTs, one hits the closest target to whoever you GCD-heal (including everything in its radius for Cure III!), the other is really strong and lasts 60 seconds but is a 3,5s cast. New spammable filler is a 2,5s-5,0s (unsure) channeling spell. As long as you channel it (the initial cast is instant) accelerates all of your DoTs every 0,5s, making them lose 3s and also cause that lost tick of damage. In other words, you apply multiple DoTs then "burn them" as your filler.

Sage
Can hold down the Dosis button. This causes 1 normal cast, and then afterwards every 0,5s a random single laser fires for 25% of the normal Dosis damage (and causing 25% of the normal Kardia healing). In other words, you try to find moments you can stand still and hold the button down for +25% damage and Kardia healing.

Importantly, I think none of these uses more buttons than the job uses right now, possibly except White Mage with +1 button. Healers are already overloaded for buttons, so transformative changes would work best IMO.

[PyurBlue]

I wouldn't mind more DPS abilities along with higher healing requirements. Currently I think SGE is a good template. Damage spell, dot, charged instant ability, and resource using movement tool.

Malefic gets replaced with a 1-2-3 autocombo

Is that any different from now? It's going to be mashing the same button over and over. I'd try to stay away from combos, especially if they're going to auto update.

Importantly, I think none of these uses more buttons than the job uses right now, possibly except White Mage with +1 button. Healers are already overloaded for buttons, so transformative changes would work best IMO.

Keeping the button count reasonable is important but I think it would be better done by consolidating heals. Spells like Medica are so rarely used that combining them with their HoT forms wouldn't feel like a loss. The HoT would be the same except for upfront healing on cast. Redundant abilities could be trimmed and replaced with charges of a single ability. This would allow new DPS buttons to be more interesting I feel.

[UkcsAlias]

Scholar
Current fairy gauge and the union removed. Every GCD-heal and Aetherflow-using heal adds 1-20 to the new fairy gauge, based on actual healing done vs maximum possible healing (shields not counted, only healing). At any point, bar can be spent to turn Eos into Selene for 4 energy/second. Selene does not use Embrace, instead she casts a nuke on a target every time you cast either a nuke or a DoT on something, akin to summoner major summon assist nukes. Selene can be freely turned off/on as an oGCD.

Bad design. The better your team becomes, the less effective you become as you will lose this dps feature. And no directly conflicts with other healers as their heals weaken you now. Which makes it a balance hell.

Damage should be standalone from any healing, or purely rely on ogcd casts (making it a fixed time period with a free heal you can weave in the rotation). This gives an optimal damage target (100% dps uptime) possible to exist, to which you can balance. And by making the ogcd/other mechanic gracefull enough, also make less effective players get a decent 'bonus damage' effect. Their heals might get fully spent a lot more often. But outside of that still involve a very similar dps rotation in which you want to spend most time dealing damage.

If you want such feature, make it tied to the dps button itself, and optionaly also make a heal gcd charge it, but at least always include dps casts. This brings a static charge up time with it. And still involves a dps loss if too many gcd heals are used.

[Azurarok]

Sure hurts knowing we went from having both to having neither. I've heard healer dps wasn't expected back then, and my understanding is they then tried to account for it with the Stormblood adjustments, but what happened from there that got us the ShB kits?

Also I only just now noticed Raimee's topic on the matter from april, and it's interesting how we went from folks leaning to needing more DPS to suddenly Both after DT.

[Carighan]

If you want such feature, make it tied to the dps button itself, and optionaly also make a heal gcd charge it, but at least always include dps casts. This brings a static charge up time with it. And still involves a dps loss if too many gcd heals are used.

Hrm, fair point, although I specifically would not want a static type of charge - say, every 14 GCDs you charge the fairy for DPS mode. The thing about that is, that takes player agency and skill expression along, as at that point it might as well just be automated. Too static and hence too dependable in nature. At the very least it'd need to be something like a random 1-20 charge on each GCD spent so the charge time is unreliable and hence as a player you have to be able to handle that unreliable charge time vs what is currently happening in the fight.

[hunter2]

It used to be both. Check out this comparison between Heavensward and Endwalker:

[Silver-Strider]

It used to be both. Check out this comparison between Heavensward and Endwalker:

God we had it so good in HW.