The problem with Tripling Down on Shadowbringers Job Design

[HappyHubris]

I'm going to offer an answer to this that no one here is going to like: People who are happy to push simple buttons for impressive spell effects vastly outnumber people who enjoy the process of mastering a complex job. I'm sure the Endwalker SMN has been a huge hit from a "number of subscriber hours" perspective, and developers are eyeing other classes for a similar treatment.

The people on this forum and reddit are a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of the playerbase.

Look at healers. Healers on these forums have been screaming for more engaging responsibilities (either through more incoming damage or more outgoing damage tools), but those jobs remain quite neutered. Because when Joe or Jane log on after work, they just want to slap some buttons and clear some content. And healing has to be "accessible" to them, with few to no failure modes for performance.

I imagine that future expansions will see less core choice and fewer tools while we get more cosmetic elements added, like the multiple stages of Confiteor that all add flashy graphics from the same button. Or how SMN has multiple EGIs that are more or less the same thing with different skins. We already see this in this forum, where some people are happy to ask for "additional summons" to reskin the same skills.

[OgruMogru]

I'm going to offer an answer to this that no one here is going to like: People who are happy to push simple buttons for impressive spell effects vastly outnumber people who enjoy the process of mastering a complex job. I'm sure the Endwalker SMN has been a huge hit from a "number of subscriber hours" perspective, and developers are eyeing other classes for a similar treatment.

The people on this forum and reddit are a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of the playerbase.

Look at healers. Healers on these forums have been screaming for more engaging responsibilities (either through more incoming damage or more outgoing damage tools), but those jobs remain quite neutered. Because when Joe or Jane log on after work, they just want to slap some buttons and clear some content. And healing has to be "accessible" to them, with few to no failure modes for performance.

I imagine that future expansions will see less core choice and fewer tools while we get more cosmetic elements added, like the multiple stages of Confiteor that all add flashy graphics from the same button. Or how SMN has multiple EGIs that are more or less the same thing with different skins. We already see this in this forum, where some people are happy to ask for "additional summons" to reskin the same skills.

:C change your name to WoefulPragmatism immediately! [This is a joke this a joke! I just thought the dissonance between your name and the starkness of your comment was rlly funny]

[Sjol]

I'm going to offer an answer to this that no one here is going to like: People who are happy to push simple buttons for impressive spell effects vastly outnumber people who enjoy the process of mastering a complex job. I'm sure the Endwalker SMN has been a huge hit from a "number of subscriber hours" perspective, and developers are eyeing other classes for a similar treatment.

The people on this forum and reddit are a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of the playerbase.

Look at healers. Healers on these forums have been screaming for more engaging responsibilities (either through more incoming damage or more outgoing damage tools), but those jobs remain quite neutered. Because when Joe or Jane log on after work, they just want to slap some buttons and clear some content. And healing has to be "accessible" to them, with few to no failure modes for performance.

I imagine that future expansions will see less core choice and fewer tools while we get more cosmetic elements added, like the multiple stages of Confiteor that all add flashy graphics from the same button. Or how SMN has multiple EGIs that are more or less the same thing with different skins. We already see this in this forum, where some people are happy to ask for "additional summons" to reskin the same skills.

I think you're mostly right with all of this with one big caveat. Other MMOs do have more interactivity and reaction in their healer and tank designs with the same casual appeal. So, it seems like there's room to grow even if it means they should be shooting for a slightly larger amount of complexity rather than a whole lot more complexity. Though, I'm loathed to use the word complexity since I don't think it accurately describes what even the players who ask for it want. It's too imprecise a word to be actionable, I think.

I'm still searching for other ways of describing what I feel SMN is lacking, though I probably don't think it lacks as much as others do. I'm currently starting from a concept of input depth -- the sequence of memorization required to process the rotation. I do think they have some interesting input variance at least at 90. The fast-paced A,b,A,b,A,b,A,b for Titan compared to A,A,A,A, long B for Garuda and long A, long A, B, B for Ifrit. Mostly I think it needs help in other areas because A,A,A,A,A for Astral Impulse and Fountain of Fire if given an oGCD will just make it feel like the Titan input sequence.

[HappyHubris]

I think you're mostly right with all of this with one big caveat. Other MMOs do have more interactivity and reaction in their healer and tank designs with the same casual appeal. So, it seems like there's room to grow even if it means they should be shooting for a slightly larger amount of complexity rather than a whole lot more complexity. Though, I'm loathed to use the word complexity since I don't think it accurately describes what even the players who ask for it want. It's too imprecise a word to be actionable, I think.

I'm still searching for other ways of describing what I feel SMN is lacking, though I probably don't think it lacks as much as others do. I'm currently starting from a concept of input depth -- the sequence of memorization required to process the rotation. I do think they have some interesting input variance at least at 90. The fast-paced A,b,A,b,A,b,A,b for Titan compared to A,A,A,A, long B for Garuda and long A, long A, B, B for Ifrit. Mostly I think it needs help in other areas because A,A,A,A,A for Astral Impulse and Fountain of Fire if given an oGCD will just make it feel like the Titan input sequence.

Oh yeah totally agreed. But FFXIV gets enough right where there is no economic reason to make combat more interesting.

It's the same reason why the MSQ is mostly movies strung together with the occasional dungeon or trial, instead of using the questing mechanics of other modern MMOs. Or why inventory and commerce are so janky. It turns out if an MMO looks good and has plentiful content, you can get away with having a LOT of unpolished facets.

[kirinoodles_]

Look at healers. Healers on these forums have been screaming for more engaging responsibilities (either through more incoming damage or more outgoing damage tools), but those jobs remain quite neutered. Because when Joe or Jane log on after work, they just want to slap some buttons and clear some content. And healing has to be "accessible" to them, with few to no failure modes for performance.

I assure you that having more DPS buttons to press/responsabilities/job identity per healer in your healing kit will not affect Joe and Jane spamming the same healing GCD every 0.1% of health lost to clear content, because only high-end content requires DPS from healers which they probably wont' be doing since it requires time to learn, optimize and clear the fights

[HappyHubris]

I assure you that having more DPS buttons to press/responsabilities/job identity per healer in your healing kit will not affect Joe and Jane spamming the same healing GCD every 0.1% of health lost to clear content, because only high-end content requires DPS from healers which they probably wont' be doing since it requires time to learn, optimize and clear the fights

I mean, that's every single job, though. I've met (old) SMNs and BRDs who ignore DoTs; they play a simpler version of the game. I can still enjoy using the full toolkit to try and contribute as much as possible.

I'm sure that we would be shocked at the percentage of people who disregard their 1-2-3 chains to spam one key.