How would you solve the boring "damage rotation" of the healers?

[Saraide]

Pretty much. Savage and Extremes were still tolerable for me, it was going back down to more casual content where things became a mind numbing tedium and as such, when I make ideas, it's actually stuff like alliance raids, fates or even something like maps with a couple of friends. One of my statics tanks was a maps nut and we'd routinely end up duoing maps as everyone else ran for the hills after raid. Mindlessly chatting s**t made it tolerable thankfully because the content itself absolutely wasn't. Even WHM's Lilies barely register as a feature because outside stuff doesn't stay alive long enough to actually get a Misery going.

I'm firmly of the opinion that FFXIV needs to look forwards, not back. If some old content becomes obsolete and needs numbers nuked to at least make it clearable again for the sake of the game going forward then that's a perfectly good trade IMO.

Yea you kinda need stuff to go wrong to have fun in ex trials which is why the point of "we should make healers heal more" is kinda dumb. The healing part is already the engaging one (preventing people from dying to void bio is fun, actually) but reasonable people recognize it's unrealistic to have the healing part in easier content increased by the necessary amount to make it the majority. Making the damage part more complex really doesnt affect anyone negatively because it cant. Outside of exactly this sort of casual elitist player who has convinced themselves they are fairly good at the game without any basis and will take serious ego damage whenever that gets disproven.

100% correct on the spoilered part

[fulminating]

edit:

Protraction would immediately go from 'whats the point' tier to 'this is great' IMO, by letting us Deploy it. Functionally, it'd then be functionally identical to a shield worth '10% of the target's HP', allowing us to do more mitigation OGCD (replacing a Succor cast at times). Alternatively, it'd allow for us to do Protraction > Adlo (boosted now) > Deploy, and deploy both the Adlo and the Protraction at once for even harder mit, which would allow us (at times) to remove another mit and use it elsewhere (eg maybe Illumination can be shifted to something else).

That'd be interactivity within a healer kit, though, and 'this requires thought to make best use of'. We know SE doesn't want that

I like that idea, it might be interesting if they learn more into deploy/bane as what differentiates scholar and sage. Perhaps even to the point of deleting succour- although this would probably need an adjustment of sorts to compensate for the lost aoe hp restoration. On this train of thought, the reintroduction of eye for an eye could also be helpful, particularly if it wasn’t just used on cd on the tank. Magic type vengeance as an effect instead of damage down could alleviate it possibly? Just damage is a bit boring though and cd reduction procs might be detrimental if they don’t cull raid buff minutes.

[Aravell]

I like that idea, it might be interesting if they learn more into deploy/bane as what differentiates scholar and sage. Perhaps even to the point of deleting succour- although this would probably need an adjustment of sorts to compensate for the lost aoe hp restoration. On this train of thought, the reintroduction of eye for an eye could also be helpful, particularly if it wasn’t just used on cd on the tank. Magic type vengeance as an effect instead of damage down could alleviate it possibly? Just damage is a bit boring though and cd reduction procs might be detrimental if they don’t cull raid buff minutes.

I would advise against deleting Succor regardless. Without Succor, SCH loses stable AoE healing, which means if the other healer dies before a multiple hit stack mechanic, there's no feasible way to salvage the situation unless you burn every other tool available to you. ET Succor can also be a very valuable tool for recovery when your cohealer is dead.

[fulminating]

I did specifically mention that losing succour’s aoe healing would probably mandate an adjustment in that post you quoted.

[Renathras]

There is currently no job where playing poorly and playing well is at a 1% gap.

...and that's irrelevant since that's not the point here.

The point here is to have a compromise between the "we want more DPS buttons to hit in downtime" and the "we don't" crowds. The idea of a compromise would be to allow the latter to continue to play as they do now - without engaging with the "new" buttons - and still be able to do the things they do now. Two readily apparent ways to do this are (a) leaving at least one Healer Job as it is today so the players not wanting to engage with "more DPS buttons" can play that Job and not have to (4 Healers Model) or (b) to give the healers more complex DPS kits, but tune them to where not engaging with them has a very small performance gap so that the players continuing to play as they do today are not harmed in the transition (including doing high end content, which they can do today with the current kits).

This isn't about parsing - as I said before, I don't care about parsing.

It comes down to how something FEELS to play. Feels good or feels bad. Something people wanting more buttons don't seem to understand is an issue with the people not wanting more buttons that would feel the more buttons "feel bad".

It'd be one thing if we were talking about a totally new Job, or a brand new game in development. But we aren't. We're talking about an existing game, and existing Jobs, with existing kits that you want to change out from under people.

I've said it before - it was bad to change SCH and SMN out from under people. It would be just as bad to change WHM and etc out from under people without giving them recourse or compensation. Everyone agrees gutting SCH was bad because it took something from people that liked SB SCH. The contra position is just as valid, that bloating WHM (and the others) with extra damage buttons and then making people that don't engage with them suddenly "bad players" despite them not being "bad" right now would be just as bad. (Specifically WHM, since even as far back as SB, it's played more or less as it does now - did a deep dive on this once and can post that for you if you haven't seen it - and was actually improved going into ShB; and arguably SGE, considering...well, it's only ever been this way, though it's also new so "growing pain" changes can still be justified, especially with SCH still matching a lot of the kit if not perfectly the feel...)

We're not talking about other roles or other kits. We're talking about a compromise so that people who want to break with the status quo so they aren't bored get to do so without harming or impacting other players who do not want to break with the status quo and actually prefer maintaining it.

That is, you want something, but you have to give something to the side that is giving up something for your benefit. Equivalent Exchange. Especially when they're giving up a lot for your benefit and getting nothing in return - the people who like healers as they are right now are getting nothing from any of these proposals, even the 4 Healers Model robs them of 3 Healer Jobs. They're entirely losing out for your collective benefit and getting nothing for their trouble other than being called names for arguing that you not get EVERYthing from them.

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And no, "read your tooltips" is NOT how you get how to play Jobs. Tooltips, for example, do not say oGCD and GCD (they say "Ability" and "Weaponskill/Spell", but don't tell you what that means). They don't tell you how to optimize gauge use. They don't tell you much of anything other that combo chain connections. Again, there ARE a few exceptions to this - like SMN. The very Job that hardcore people hate with a passion.

I won't speak on this topic further, but "all you need to be optimal is to read your tooltips" has never been true. It's not even true of SMN (it wouldn't tell you to delay your Festers for your 2 min windows, for example).

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I would wager some people here DO only think of Savage, but I'm not prosecuting that. I'm just pointing out that for changes that affect everyone, you must listen to everyone's viewpoints and use data that reflects all players. I was saying neither more nor less.

Why are people so up in arms about this?

Something I tend to think of when people ask this kind question, "Why does this matter to you?":

If it matters to them/you, why should it not matter to me (or anyone else)?

If it's negligible...then what's it matter if it's 1% or 3%? "10% is nothing" so then why not 1% since it's also nothing? Since the difference is so irrelevant, then it's irrelevant if it was as little as 1%, is it not?

selene returns

I've been curious about this; people suggest Selene returning would free up buttons on SCH by removing one. I've never understood how that's a saved button considering Summon Selene would be an additional button? Unless we're going to use SMN as a guide and have a Eos/Selene version of Gemshine, Astral Flow, and Precious Brilliance. Kind of like Eukrasia if it was a toggle? One might do Whispering Dawn, Fey Blessing, and ??? if Eos is out, while the button would instead do Fey Illumination, ????, and ????? if Selene was out instead? Is that the idea here?

My numbers indicate a 10% gap NOW.

What?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you compared NOW's "glare only" vs "glare and proper Dia and Misery use (2 and 1 time per minute, respectively".

That's not relevant since "the gameplay now" would be "Glare and proper Dia (every 30 sec) and Misery (1 per min) use". There's no gap between Glare + 2x Dia + Misery vs Glare + 2x Dia + Misery. They're the same thing. G+2D+M = G+2D+M. There's no gap there at all. No one is asking for Glarespam to = G+2D+M right now. The question is for someone playing as they do now (G+2D+M) to have a very small gap so that they aren't negatively impacted by the change, since the point of the change is for you to be "less bored", not to have "a skill gap"...riiiiight?

On the other hand, your idea would have a gap if one only used Glare + 2x Dia + Misery vs Glare + 4x Dia + Misery + Elements. A gap that is greater than 0. This is the relevant topic of discussion. Comparing that to "Glare only" isn't relevant, since we aren't talking about "Glare only" players. We're talking about "Glare + 2 Dia + Misery" players. (Also Assize, but you get the point.)

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As for what you want: That's dodging the question. I take it the answer is that you would prefer 3 change to none change, you just don't want to be on the record saying such for I suppose obvious reasons? But prove me wrong by answering the question straight.

The Devs do supposedly look at feedback, even things like this. Though what messages they get out of it...

As for the rest:

I pointed out what was different, and we don't have a "Blessing of the Elements" button, so clearly that's difference, as would be gauge optimization, which I've been told is a big deal (on WAR), so we can't ignore that, and it doesn't change the fact 0-100 gauges are boring and overused at this point, we don't need ANOTHER one in the game. I thought we opposed homogenization?

A lot of the button consolidation cases are different to different people. I never felt I "lost" Esuna...considering I still have Esuna. (Aside: I more felt I lost Leeches on SCH, since that played into the class identity as a Doctrine of Humors physician). Never felt I "lost" Shroud, considering I still have it (effectively) in Lucid.

Stoneskin is different because it was a spamable (no CD) ability replaced with an oGCD with a time gate. Assize is "button we use on CD". If we cut the CD in half and made it a GCD, it would still be "button we use on CD, but now we get to hit it more often". That is, you're replacing effectively a 40 sec CD button with a 15 sec CD button. Considering how little WHM gameplay revolves around weaving and you don't really powerweave Assize (if Assize was a GCD right now, you'd use it literally the same way you use it now), that's a negligible change, you're just getting a more frequent used CD. I think most people would take that as a win. And normalizing damage isn't hard; average it out and split it up across abilities. Even under your model, it's not like WHM has a ton of them so it wouldn't be hard to either spread them out evenly (weighted) to maintain ability damage in relation to each other OR alternatively just dump it all into Misery. The point being, balancing that is easy, that's not an excuse not to do it.

This also doesn't cover BoE which, as I said, you can just make PoM upgrade into and cut the CD to 60 sec, no silly gauge required. Why exactly would it not work? You still have the more varied stuff to do, so why is that insufficient...but some magical gauge that you have to try to shoehorn into a 2 min burst all the same is somehow better? What does that have to do with boredom?

Again, this is the part where my brain goes "why are we talking like DPS players?", because that's a very DPS thing to want/do.

As for Lily barrier: We already have Benison. We don't need YET ANOTHER button (when Solace and Rapture are borderline redundant AS IT IS) unless you're removing Benison. We already have button bloat, something you know I've argued before. Now, if you meant REPLACE Solace and Rapture, then we can have a conversation, but at that point, why keep Benison around? Just give us back Stoneskin (single target) and Protect (AOE, basically Stoneskin2 usable in combat) as GCDs, and do that thing where if you have a Lily, it makes them instant and cost no MP. Then remove Benison. We still end up around the same place this way in terms of numbers of buttons. That is, remove Solace, Rapture and Benison, add Stoneskin and Protect, make Stoneskin and Protect GCDs with an MP cost, and if you have a Lily, they instead are instant cast, consume no MP, and nourish the Blood Lily (and do this same thing with Cure 2 and Medica, making Solace and Rapture removable. Can even have the icon and spell animation change when you have a Lily).

I do agree - again, as you know and as I've said, despite you not acknowledging it - that removing the pure/barrier split is a good idea and one I agree with. Again, we've agreed on this point before, so I don't know why you're acting like we don't now. We just disagree on how to achieve it. I see it as doable using the existing buttons we have, you seem to think that we need "more buttons! some indeterminate amount of more!" when...we really don't.

Also note: Did you miss the part where I said "If you do this with these buttons, I'd agree with your idea"?

And it's not like what I'm asking is onerous or defeats the point of your suggestion. Assize into Water/Banish doesn't defeat it, since your suggestion doesn't even mention Assize, much less have its current form necessary in any way. Having PoM upgrade into BoE as a 60 sec CD to give you Quake/Tornado/Flood means you still have those extra abilities that you're using to get your dopamine hit from elemental spells and mixing up your animations; the only thing changed here is you aren't futzing with a gauge that is a curse on literally every Job that has one other than maybe RDM. AND, optimal play would still have the player trying to fit that to the 2 min meta/PoM usage anyway. It's sort of the "Does PLD really need Fight or Flight AND Requiescat as two separate buttons?" argument.

This is you not taking yes for an answer.

I'm not trying to be hardnosed on this, I just legitimately do not understand why that isn't an acceptable compromise. You're getting 4x Dias per min, you're getting a big CD burst every minute, you're getting the elemental spells you always say you want, you're getting an additional GCD several times a minute...I'm failing to see why this isn't acceptable?

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The rest I'm not responding to, namely the insult/goading jab at the end.

I would advise against deleting Succor regardless...

Agreed. I've seen people suggest taking things like Succor or Soil from SCH, and it's weird to me because those are iconic abilities. Yet people will die on the hill of Energy Drain for some reason, despite it being the most negligible and uninteresting thing in the Job. (Sure sure, people say optimizing it is a challenge, but the effect of it is nearly nonexistent while Succor and Soil are both visually apparent and can have major impacts on encounters and party survival, as well as being very clear and apparent examples of SCH's class fantasy of being a protective barrier healer. Of all the things to remove, I can't imagine why anyone would think removing those would be a good idea.)

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Annnnnd I'm just taking someone's advice and ignoring a certain someone now.

[Saraide]

I would wager some people here DO only think of Savage, but I'm not prosecuting that. I'm just pointing out that for changes that affect everyone, you must listen to everyone's viewpoints and use data that reflects all players. I was saying neither more nor less.

No, this is exactly the reason why so much in this thread is about damage complexity instead of healing complexity. Upping the healing requirement has a much much bigger risk of alienating bad healers than increasing the damage complexity. Changing the healing part affects everyone, changing the damage part does not. For the simple reason that every piece of content has heal checks but only higher end content has dps checks (i am aware of althyk). And in that situation if you wanted to still just spam your basic attack you could do that and not face any troubles.

[Renathras]

Actually, question:

What do you guys think the Devs will do with Healers in DT as of the way things stand right now?

Is something like "main spam attack upgrade (mostly visual, minor potency bump), aoe attack upgrade (mostly visual, minor potency bump), possibly DoT upgrade (mostly visual, minor potency bump), something in their kit gets a second charge, some new healing oGCD" a pretty reasonable assumption?

[AmiableApkallu]

We're talking about a compromise so that people who want to break with the status quo so they aren't bored get to do so without harming or impacting other players who do not want to break with the status quo and actually prefer maintaining it.

Hot take: The current status quo for healers has no place. Period. Full stop. Gameplay where it's incredibly common to spend 50+% of your time mashing a single action belongs in the arcades of old, not a modern PC or console MMO(-ish) RPG.

Now, anyone is welcome to argue that that time should be re-allocated towards healing actions, and they are welcome to do so with proposals with the same level of detail as "more damage button" proposals – detailed enough to evaluate, perhaps imperfectly, whether time has actually been re-allocated in a meaningful way, without unacceptable adverse effects. That would be a far more constructive response than, "BuT wHaT iF sOmEoNe LiKeS oNe-BuTtOn SpAm SiMpLe GaMePlAy?"

[AmiableApkallu]

Actually, question:

What do you guys think the Devs will do with Healers in DT as of the way things stand right now?

Is something like "main spam attack upgrade (mostly visual, minor potency bump), aoe attack upgrade (mostly visual, minor potency bump), possibly DoT upgrade (mostly visual, minor potency bump), something in their kit gets a second charge, some new healing oGCD" a pretty reasonable assumption?

Previously: Dawntrail Healer Change Predictions.

Some folks also addressed this in another thread.

[Renathras]

Hot take:

Hot take: More DPS buttons on healers has no place. Period. Full stop.

It's irrelevant - some people do like it. That is relevant. (Also, most people DO say they want to replace the downtime with more healing - and are promptly told that's impossible, trying to get them to agree to more DPS instead. If the option is "more DPS" or "more healing", I choose more healing. If the option is "more DPS" or "nothing/keep things as they are", I choose nothing.)

Previously: Dawntrail Healer Change Predictions.

Some folks also addressed this in another thread.

So more or less agreement that the status quo is the baseline what we're getting? Hm...