Page 13 of 29 FirstFirst ... 3 11 12 13 14 15 23 ... LastLast
Results 121 to 130 of 289
  1. #121
    Player
    Magikazam's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2022
    Posts
    368
    Character
    Omori Oatmeal
    World
    Malboro
    Main Class
    Summoner Lv 91
    Quote Originally Posted by Cleretic View Post
    Venat had a very good and immediately understandable reason not to tell the Convocation, despite that being what she'd do in any other situation by her own admission: because she knows what their standard procedure is going to be to finding out this unknown, and that it's not going to help. (We also know this, because Emet does exactly their 'standard procedure' with Hermes and Meteion and only makes things worse.)

    On the other hand, you might remember that there's a certain pretty big step between 'Zodiark dying' and 'coming back from the moon'! A step that proved that, while there's hardly a 'highest authority' on the Source, there is one that's a few steps ahead of the Scions on this particular subject, for which this whole subject is very much a known situation, and should probably be the first point of contact on getting back down there. Said authority is hardly an inherently trustworthy power, and proved that extremely clearly just a bit earlier in Endwalker, but given the scenario put in front of the Scions, were a clear first point of call.

    Far from being parallel situations that should or could be handled in parallel ways, these are actually exact mirrors that require opposite approaches: Venat was faced with a situation that gave her clear evidence on who she couldn't contact, while the Scions were faced with a situation that gave them only one option as to who to contact. I don't find seeing the differences here especially complicated, and I'm sure you don't, either.
    NGL with you. the only reason the standard procedure didn't work the first time is cause a clearly battle-fatigued Hermes pulled out a mind-erasing clock that we need to assume can't be destroyed or stopped by any magic at all. I would say that the device is so convenient rather than the ancient procedure being an issue there.
    (11)

  2. #122
    Player
    SannaR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Posts
    3,313
    Character
    Sanna Rosewood
    World
    Midgardsormr
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami View Post
    Sanna, please. You always come to rush to the defense of these people time and time again purely because you agree with them despite them constantly insulting and talking down to others, i’m merely calling it out. The fact the poster i was speaking to tried to say the video was done in bad faith when it’s literally videos talking about in game events is beyond ridiculous.
    And those who disagree with them don't do the same? I don't spend time in many other places or out of discords not ran by friends or for my FC. Yet here in the lore section and in the general section of these forms I've seen plenty of those who didn't like the story or like Venat do the exact same things. Excluding the death threats. I've also seen those people tend to be the seemingly first ones to use the claim of bad faith and to paint themselves as innocent victims. I only agree with them as far as liking the story and Venat. I have time and time again stated that even though I like Venat I feel what she ended up doing wasn't the best thing to do. Yet I'm not sure how, if by the time she has chosen to enact the Sundering, if you are aiming so no more sacrifices can be made while also making sure future humanity can one day be able to learn the truth inorder to go and defeat Meteion you go about doing that without well sundering the world. And I mean in a "there's no more time to do anything else. The clock is literally a 0.01" type of situation. And it is derailing as this argument started after I'm pretty sure you claimed Cleretic was mudding the waters. After another replied to commenting about a post of theirs that was a reply to a tangential discussion of something else. I'm not sure if another poster reads the forums while not subbed to the game, but if they do. Then I hope they understand what I said back in a different thread here. In that it'd been really nice if the thing I said tended to happen as people's first responses to the thread or to other's first response hadn't happened.
    (8)

  3. #123
    Player
    thegreatonemal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    Gridinia
    Posts
    678
    Character
    Malcolm Varanidae
    World
    Marilith
    Main Class
    Lancer Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami View Post
    It has nothing to do with me being the victim. It has everything to do with calling out you and the others like you who act this way towards anyone who criticizes anything including the story. The fact that you guys like to play the game of “your opinion is in the minority” when you guys have basically made people scared to even come out and say anything at all is ridiculous. That’s why videos like these are important because they give people a space they can actually be open and acknowledge the issues of the story without getting berated by you and others for having the “wrong opinion.” Especially when you try and critique things that are literally answered in the video. Both you and another poster have the issue of critiquing the video without even watching it but then asking for evidence for story points. Get real.
    Act like what chief? Where have I been acting like that. I'm not allowed to say you're wrong? I can't point out how you're leaving out key details, and those key details make your opinion wrong? The fact that you like to dismisses those valid critiques is your own person issue. I've yet to see where this abuse you all claim to be going through is. As for watching the video I don't need to. You and others have already said all these points outlined in the video. This conversations is years old. Why do I need to hear your same talking points in video format? It's not like your arguments or criticisms of the story have changed.
    (8)

  4. #124
    Player
    Alenore's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Limsa Lominsa
    Posts
    439
    Character
    Alenore Llohen
    World
    Excalibur
    Main Class
    Lancer Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Cleretic View Post
    Venat had a very good and immediately understandable reason not to tell the Convocation, despite that being what she'd do in any other situation by her own admission: because she knows what their standard procedure is going to be to finding out this unknown, and that it's not going to help. (We also know this, because Emet does exactly their 'standard procedure' with Hermes and Meteion and only makes things worse.)

    On the other hand, you might remember that there's a certain pretty big step between 'Zodiark dying' and 'coming back from the moon'! A step that proved that, while there's hardly a 'highest authority' on the Source, there is one that's a few steps ahead of the Scions on this particular subject, for which this whole subject is very much a known situation, and should probably be the first point of contact on getting back down there. Said authority is hardly an inherently trustworthy power, and proved that extremely clearly just a bit earlier in Endwalker, but given the scenario put in front of the Scions, were a clear first point of call.

    Far from being parallel situations that should or could be handled in parallel ways, these are actually exact mirrors that require opposite approaches: Venat was faced with a situation that gave her clear evidence on who she couldn't contact, while the Scions were faced with a situation that gave them only one option as to who to contact. I don't find seeing the differences here especially complicated, and I'm sure you don't, either.
    You may use the argument of "she cannot trust the Convocation", Cleretic, but it's one of the reason a lot of people find Venat as stupid as Hermes, and disagree with how she's portrayed as a savior instead of as another flawed Ancient who takes drastic measures affecting her whole race at breakfast.

    Like, seriously :
    • She was afraid that her people might disappear like the Nibirum, so she chose to... kill them all herself? Make it makes sense ;
    • She feared Hermes might turn against them and he wouldn't help to find the problem when she already knows what the issue is? And why do we even care if Fandaniel is against us? Is it really better to Emet-Selch, Lahabrea and Elidibus against sundered people who have a fragment of their capabilities? Which include literally their most powerful sorcerer, a calculating mastermind gifted in creation magic, and the incarnation of Zodiark that she wanted so bad to sunder?
    • How exactly did she know any of her choice didn't sidetrack her to another timeline? She had absolutely no idea she was on the right path for all these years until we went to say her "Hi, hello, may I trouble you with Aether please" ;
    • She condemned the 3 susmentionned Ancients to walk the path of the genocidial maniacs, and all the other Ancients to either stay in stasis in Zodiark or repeatedly die for 12000 years ;
    • She literally states when we leave Elpis that she has to plan an escape. Not a final solution to Meteion. This solution would have doomed 13/14th of the sundered souls, since it would have saved the Source only. Why not literally have her own people escape instead if she thought it was the way?
    • And if the other, previously unannounced plan, was to reach Meteion and smash her dynamis beak, why did she have to wait 12000 years until she became so entrenched into Ultima Thule to act?
    • On that note, when did she become such an expert on Dynamis, knowing that Ultima Thule is so full of Dynamis that Aether would have no use?
    • Which is actually proved to be wrong: if Thancred's sacrifice was enough to actually make UT liveable for everybody, and Aether useful, a countermeasure might have been found. And beings of pure aether are also thriving there: Zenos as Shinryuu is literally a primal, strong enough to break into her nest from the outside, and make her reconsider her position. We also almost exclusively use aether to defeat her, except that Dynamis LB ;
    • Besides dooming her whole species, she also pretty much doomed all the other planets that might have thrived were it not for the despair infused Dynamis: the Ea, for instance, lived through the Final Days, so were still alive when Meteion started her Song of Oblivion. And somehow we managed to convince some of them to live on, showing that Meteion is most likely the trigger to their mass suicide. Like, congratulations we killed Meteion! Well she had 12000 years to destroy everybody else but ehhhhh at least our own star survived amirite?
    • And like, how could they not unite her people toward the goal of defeating Meteion? They were ready to kill themselves to just erect a new aetherial bubble around the celestial currents. Are we really supposed to believe they couldn't have found


    Her whole premise and discourse on why we're better than the Ancient also falls short, when you consider that they were time and time again portrayed as being as flawed as we were:
    • She mentions how Alisaie never loses sight of her dreams: is 12000 years of pain and suffering to bring back their friends not determination enough for her?
    • To Thancred, she praises how he learnt to live with loss. Something that isn't unkown, however rare in their society: Lahabrea and Erichtonios themselves had to deal with grief ;
    • The keeper of secret role Urianger holds has no weight here, when their society is full of secrets: Pandaemonium has hidden knowledge, herself refuses to tell people more about the events, Lahabrea hid the truth from Athena from everybody else ;
    • Same with Y'shtola, somehow pursuing knowledge is such a quality that the Ancients didn't have? A society built on learning, bettering the star and themselves and going back for a nap? New light is shone upon what you know, and you adapt: the Ancients do that, look how quickly Emet accepted the whole Dynamis thing ;
    • From hate to love, for Estinien, is again shown with Erichtonios ;
    • To G'raha she says that he didn't give in to despair and led his civilization to salvation. The gall to say that when your own civilization came together to find a solution through sacrifice, while you had the solution all along lol ;
    • And finally she congratulates us for always rising to the challenge. What did the Unsundered do the last 12000 years, just lay down whenever a champion defied them? They weren't curled up into a ball when Meteion started her Song, either.

    Had we not went to the past to know how the Final Days were triggered, we couldn't have defeated it. The Ancients were never given a chance to rise to the occasion.


    All these and more are the reasons why a lot of people don't like how she's portrayed in game, and cannot agree with the "she did what she had to do to succeed and that was the only path". No, she single-handedly decided she'd do better than everybody else and played God with so many lives, and it's no different than the Unsundered rejoinings, or Hermes little self-determination test.
    They are not "anti-Venat", or consider that "she's the villain". Not more the villain than Emet or Hermes, at the very least.
    And they don't agree that it was the only course of action, when the game shows us time and time again that Ancients had potential, that they overcame the same issues as us, and that even societies like the Nibirum could find meaning to life with time and some guidance.


    But you know all these arguments perfectly well, Cleretic, since this subject has been debated ad nauseam on that forum. So I'll just finish with a link to this topic:
    https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/452097
    (21)

  5. #125
    Player
    Teraq's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Location
    Amaurot
    Posts
    275
    Character
    Teraq Moks
    World
    Behemoth
    Main Class
    Ninja Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Alenore View Post
    wow
    Zodiark almighty, someone can cook.
    (12)

  6. #126
    Player KizuyaKatogami's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2021
    Posts
    3,472
    Character
    Kizuya Katogami
    World
    Cerberus
    Main Class
    Conjurer Lv 81
    Quote Originally Posted by thegreatonemal View Post
    Act like what chief? Where have I been acting like that. I'm not allowed to say you're wrong? I can't point out how you're leaving out key details, and those key details make your opinion wrong? The fact that you like to dismisses those valid critiques is your own person issue. I've yet to see where this abuse you all claim to be going through is. As for watching the video I don't need to. You and others have already said all these points outlined in the video. This conversations is years old. Why do I need to hear your same talking points in video format? It's not like your arguments or criticisms of the story have changed.
    You and Cleretic have the same issue of asking for evidence, evidence being given to you, and then you both either saying it’s not worth your time or it doesn’t count. You then claim the video is done in “bad faith” based on one video where you more than likely skipped around trying to find something “incriminating” as to get an excuse to not watch multiple videos of you being proven wrong over and over with in game sources. You mention leaving out key details, how would you know? You didn’t watch the video AND you skipped around most of it. To quote what you and your ilk like to say, it seems you just didn’t pay enough attention and didn’t watch the cutscenes
    (12)

  7. #127
    Player
    Cleretic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2021
    Location
    Solution Eight (it's not as good)
    Posts
    2,889
    Character
    Ein Dose
    World
    Mateus
    Main Class
    Alchemist Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Magikazam View Post
    NGL with you. the only reason the standard procedure didn't work the first time is cause a clearly battle-fatigued Hermes pulled out a mind-erasing clock that we need to assume can't be destroyed or stopped by any magic at all. I would say that the device is so convenient rather than the ancient procedure being an issue there.
    Actually, Kairos is the main reason this entire situation is salvageable in the first place. Let's run through the same events we saw play out, except Kairos isn't there. I think that's a bit of an oversimplification since I think a lot of Hermes' actions are predicated on Kairos' existence.

    The events in Ktisis play out as we see, but nobody's mind is wiped of them. We can set Hythlodaeus aside since he's not in any position of power.

    We can safely assume that Emet keeps to his word and makes sure Hermes is out of contest to become Fandaniel. In terms of searching for applicants, they're back to square one; it doesn't seem like they had other options. We don't know how much time happened between the events of Elpis and the End of Days, but I think it's fairly plausible that in this scenario, there is no Fandaniel by the time the skies ignite. Being generous and assuming there is, we don't get much better: the main thing Hermes brought to the table wasn't being a Fandaniel, but already having an intimate understanding of dynamis, a field so esoteric that it seems he's the only person in Elpis to do so. That's gonna lead to this Fandaniel playing catchup when the End of Days hit, at a time when any time lost is crucial. I think the chances of Zodiark happening in this scenario are slim-to-none, and with higher chance of failures.

    Hermes, meanwhile, hits a big unknown in that while he'd definitely be subject to whatever passes for the Amaurotian justice system. We don't know what that is, but let's again take the generous assumption and say he's in some kind of prison. In the actual game, though, remember that he subjects himself to Kairos because he knows that it's basically the only way he'll be able to commit wholeheartedly to what the world needs in defense. At best, without Kairos, he's dead weight; he's not gonna help even if they ask. At worst, we're looking at a potential saboteur: if he slips the confines they put him in (or if they don't have any in the first place), then he's perfectly suited to ruin whatever they come up with.

    Venat's technically not in a different position since her memory was never wiped in the first place, but there's suddenly a lot more on her shoulders in the long term. As I quoted on the second page, she does commit to building both defenses and escape plans; but unlike in the actual game where Zodiark was a functional defense, this time it's all on whatever she can rustle up. And judging by the fact we never saw what she could rustle up, it's probably not good. Technically she's in a good position to scout out a non-Hermes dynamis expert to weigh in on the Zodiark situation, but nothing she says indicates she knows anyone that fits the bill, and the issue she mentions of having to select allies carefully for emotional stability reasons is still true here: she can't just scout, even if she had the time for it. Frankly, I don't know what Venat does here, because her capacity to do anything here is pretty meager.

    Basically, without Kairos the entire situation gets way messier, and chances of success drop perilously close to 0%.
    (9)

  8. #128
    Player
    thegreatonemal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    Gridinia
    Posts
    678
    Character
    Malcolm Varanidae
    World
    Marilith
    Main Class
    Lancer Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami View Post
    You and Cleretic have the same issue of asking for evidence, evidence being given to you, and then you both either saying it’s not worth your time or it doesn’t count. You then claim the video is done in “bad faith” based on one video where you more than likely skipped around trying to find something “incriminating” as to get an excuse to not watch multiple videos of you being proven wrong over and over with in game sources. You mention leaving out key details, how would you know? You didn’t watch the video AND you skipped around most of it. To quote what you and your ilk like to say, it seems you just didn’t pay enough attention and didn’t watch the cutscenes
    You mean the evidence that was refuted years ago when these discussions were new and the same stuff that disproves what a lot of you say that's on the first page. Your side hasn't disproven any of that. You've just tried and failed to talk your way around how you think it doesn't matter. When you can actually do that we can talk. You can't because its in the game and it's right there plain as day. As for the video. I clicked on one time stamp and within a minutes was hit with some stuff that is unbecoming of a video that has critical analysis in it's title. Not to mention the section where a lot of our points are brought up is labeled excuse Real good faith right there.
    (2)

  9. #129
    Player KizuyaKatogami's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2021
    Posts
    3,472
    Character
    Kizuya Katogami
    World
    Cerberus
    Main Class
    Conjurer Lv 81
    Quote Originally Posted by thegreatonemal View Post
    You mean the evidence that was refuted years ago when these discussions were new and the same stuff that disproves what a lot of you say that's on the first page. Your side hasn't disproven any of that. You've just tried and failed to talk your way around how you think it doesn't matter. When you can actually do that we can talk. You can't because its in the game and it's right there plain as day. As for the video. I clicked on one time stamp and within a minutes was hit with some stuff that is unbecoming of a video that has critical analysis in it's title. Not to mention the section where a lot of our points are brought up is labeled excuse Real good faith right there.
    Point to me where we’ve been disproven? Because someone has posted above multiple points refuting these self same claims you keep pointing out as “refuting” us with in game evidence.
    (9)

  10. #130
    Player
    Cleretic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2021
    Location
    Solution Eight (it's not as good)
    Posts
    2,889
    Character
    Ein Dose
    World
    Mateus
    Main Class
    Alchemist Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Teraq View Post
    Zodiark almighty, someone can cook.
    Yeah, he made a feast of undercooked meat, in hopes that it'd look like a victory if I choked on it. This is U.S. school debate circuit tactics: rapid-fire through a flurry of arguments with little care to their veracity or a unified argument, secure in the knowledge that since it takes more time to rebut a point than it takes to make it, eventually a point will go through uncountered.

    Unfortunately, there's a problem there: I'm Australian. We don't play that game.

    Alenore is not making an argument for most of that post, against me or anybody, as it's just a flurry of disconnected rebuttals against an imagined opposition. There is no cohesive, singular argument here. Some of these points even contradict each other in such a way that it becomes clear that he can't possibly hold them all to be close and true, as their only unifying thread is 'if you hold this view in opposition to this thing Venat did/said, then it makes Venat look wrong'. I truly believe Alenore doesn't actually hold any of those bulleted list points to be important, they're just here in hopes that I waste my time on them. And while I frequently waste my time, I'm not interested in doing it this way.

    Instead, I want to zero in on the part of the post that I think Alenore truly believes, rather than just the things they'll say.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alenore View Post
    All these and more are the reasons why a lot of people don't like how she's portrayed in game, and cannot agree with the "she did what she had to do to succeed and that was the only path". No, she single-handedly decided she'd do better than everybody else and played God with so many lives, and it's no different than the Unsundered rejoinings, or Hermes little self-determination test.
    They are not "anti-Venat", or consider that "she's the villain". Not more the villain than Emet or Hermes, at the very least.
    And they don't agree that it was the only course of action, when the game shows us time and time again that Ancients had potential, that they overcame the same issues as us, and that even societies like the Nibirum could find meaning to life with time and some guidance.
    You're right.

    She was not more morally justified than Emet or Hermes. Venat herself would be (and in fact is) the first one to tell you that. The Final Days of Amaurot is a clash of three sides who all believe, in their varied, limited and human views (well, human-ish), that they're doing what is best for everyone around them. Hydaelyn being the one that emerged on top was not, and has never been, a moral vindication of her. Her view is no less flawed than Emet's, her hands no less bloodied than Hermes', and I could pick apart all of them were I so inclined. Her view is agreeable to some, just as Emet and Hermes are, but that doesn't make any of them morally right.

    However, while she is not morally right, she is tactically correct. The steps she took led to victory over what she set as her opponent. Again, this doesn't vindicate her morals, but the largest and simplest fact of the entire conflict is that she won, in both the short and long term. Could others have succeeded in the same thing? Emet-Selch doesn't think so, and I have no reason to doubt him on this. Trying to tear down her tactical achievements in efforts to declare her morally wrong just seems beside the point to me, but so many times people seem to angle towards that, taking the easy option of picking apart a fictional story's logic rather than the more difficult subject of an imperfect moral conundrum.
    (11)
    Last edited by Cleretic; 08-08-2023 at 01:53 PM.

Page 13 of 29 FirstFirst ... 3 11 12 13 14 15 23 ... LastLast