Lore Forum Decorum - Just What is Meant by Good/Bad Faith?

[Vyrerus]

Though I've been on the forum for over half a decade, I've only recently become presently active within the last year and a half or so(these days are so blurry).

I've seen it said over a dozen times now that there used to be regulars here who enjoyed the Lore section with the utmost gusto, but it all went downhill during an undefined segment of the Shadowbringers era.

The reason why is cited to be, "People only discuss "lore" in bad faith. There's no more good faith debaters/discussers around."

This confused me, because it didn't seem like anyone who said it really had a deeply different way of communicating their thoughts about what's what, though I did note that a select few are mildly less confrontational than many others.

So I just wanted to make this thread to know. Could someone explain in depth just what is the matter with the present decorum? How can we be better? If we could be better, would the old Lore hounds return?

I ask the question, because whenever I read about good/bad faith, I feel like I am part of the problem (I am certainly pointed). More than that, I just feel like it's a shame to not have the input of those who were here before.

It may be a futile, fruitless gesture on my part, but I would really like to know. This is my favorite part of the forum, short of the off-topic thread in General, heh.

[Anonymoose]

Considering this post makes direct references to several things I just said, I feel like it would be bad form to not be the first reply, lol.

I referred to it as a "whole other can of worms" but if you've got the can opener thread...well, gil where one's mouth is, right?

The best definition of the concept, in my humble opinion, is the Assume Good Faith policy over at Wikipedia. Good faith discussion, in essence, is acting under the initial assumption that people mean well, are doing their best, and are presenting what they know / don't fairly and honestly. Good faith discussion is also not reactive; someone else is acting in bad faith is not an excuse to act in bad faith in return. Good faith actors lead by example and alienate bad faith actors by showing their behavior is unwelcome.

Some areas of the FFXIV forums have never had much decorum, to be honest, but the lore forum's was eroded so noticeably that people started referring to it in other mediums.

Within the same post I referred to it last, not even a few posts later people are "literallying" all over each other, accusing them of not being able to read, calling each other names. That didn't used to happen here. "If I can infer it, it's obviously true and I don't need to provide a citation for my claim" didn't used to happen here. "If you disagree with my unconfirmed headcanon it's an attack on my character and intelligence so if I'm incredibly rude to you it's your own fault because I'm the real victim" didn't used to happen here. Deliberately reading things ungenerously to make retaliatory ad hominem attacks didn't used to happen here. Verbally tea-bagging people over whose theories panned out and whose didn't... OK that did kinda always happen here, but it wasn't this bad, lol.

There was more "Here's what I think and why I think it; what's what you think and why you think it?" And yeah, it could get passionate, but "sorry I got acerbic" passionate. Not, "I will burn this thread and everyone's ability to enjoy it to the ground if you don't agree with me" passionate.

And people still talk about lore in other settings. Reddit, Twitter, Discord. A lot of the people I used to enjoy talking to here moved onto other mediums because the number of people willing to put up with a low pH environment now outnumber the people who don't in this specific niche. I refer to lore forum threads and people who used to be regulars here are like, "Oh, I stopped reading them." Some lurk without posting because they don't want to deal with reactive bad-faith attitudes. Some post very sparingly and consider more than they used to before they do. And because I used to post more, because I used to call it out more, I get DMs from people like, "What happened?" as if I can help that the tone sucks.

It's frustrating. But that's fandom for you. It ebbs and flows everywhere.

[Vyrerus]

It ebbs and flows everywhere.

That was kind of the trigger pull, but it's been on my mind the last few months. It's cropped up a few times. I think the last time it really hit me was a month or two ago, Cilia said something about Team Zodiark debaters discussing the characters in bad faith. There were half a dozen or so other instances over the past year as well. Every time they come up I find myself googling and self-analyzing. Am I the/one of the assholes, etc.?

I'm also bringing it up, because I don't mind bringing it up. That and there was a slew of posts I never got to read where some people had an argument so heated that their posts were deleted, and I think someone got a temp ban from the forum too? Still not clear on that.

So it's kind of like we're not following any sort of politeness or etiquette?

We could improve by following some guidelines like:

1. Don't insult others
2. Don't insinuate insults either
3. Keep theory tea bagging to a minimum (Honestly I felt like the MSQ already teabagged me pretty hard lmao)
4. ???
5. Lore Profit?

I guess we won't be getting the old heads back from the sounds of it, heh. I suppose it's the flux nature of social environments though. People leave forums all of the time for different reasons, and new people show up. I guess it's not any one person's fault either. I just sort of feel like an A-hole.

[vormela]

I feel validated by this post so thank you Vyrerus.

I have only played this game for months (not years) so had no idea the community was ever at all welcoming. What a relief. I have commented in discord about the fact, so am also admitting to being a gossiper here. It is very noticeable and very uncomfortable. Conversations would be a lot more vibrant with a wider range in the commentariat. You don't need to be able to speak like Urianger or have the recall abilities of Matoya.

It feels like...I have so many feelings but no place to discuss them and so throw them out into the aether. And the same people with very limited viewpoints get the bandwagon response, I see them getting upvotes for some reason, and then things devolve. I couldn't even name the people it happens to because I tune out if the style of writing/speech is belittling.

I thought it was just that I was new (OR OLD...definitely in the over-30 crowd here) and it makes me feel a lot better that this hasn't always been an issue.

I have noticed stuff getting Kairos'd (LOL) and most of the time it has to do with characters introduced by Shadowbringers. I would make the argument that this character specifically divides the fanbase.

I am hoping Pyromancer's playthroughs will offer more insight. I know he is going to love that character specifically.

I am not eloquent enough to explain why. I am thinking part of it has to do with lore geeks and fanfic communities. Both are highly insular. There is always a lot of "well because he is popular he has affected the direction they are going with the story." It is possible to be able to interact with both communities. "THESE ARE JUST MY THOUGHTS AND NOT CANON." (The reason I say "I think" so much here...a lot just gets stated and interpreted as hard, cold fact, when the beauty of art appreciation is the range of observations that can be made and upheld at once over a great work. And I truly believe FFXIV is great art, and that it uses the medium of MMORPG to its advantage in the storytelling.)

I have noticed FF treats outright insults seriously and so most of the time things are either attempts to stamp out commentary or passive aggressive or belittling. Which is a lot harder to identify.

ETA: The posts READ that way. I really don't think people intend for that to be the effect, but it is.

It says a lot that you could make this post and ask if you were problematic. I don't think I could do that. I love reading your posts. People talk past each other here most times but I feel like I have made one connection now. So hello *wave.*

[EaraGrace]

I think this is important, so thank you to Vyrerus and Moose for bringing it up. I can't say I'm blameless for getting heated in discussions over what should be fun or interesting topics. Its definitely something I will pay more attention to in the future and improve on. We're all here because in one way or another we like lore and story, and are invested in understanding its flow. Taking a page from 14's book and trying to work together to make the lore forum better might be the best choice we can all make.

[Lyth]

I find the game lore to be interesting. As an outsider looking in, it seems like there are quite a few people who have built up personal identities around being 'lore scholars', which is no doubt a time consuming exercise. The problem with having so much investment in lore is that it becomes deeply upsetting to be wrong. I think that Endwalker in particular brought this out, as a culmination of everything from ARR. It's not just about new and casual fans of the game who are super excited after just completing the MSQ blindly throwing out crackpot theories that drown out your carefully studied research of 10 years. Even the game's own script writers are now creating new lore in bad faith, by writing stories that the forum consensus could not predict back in ARR! They're clearly interrogating the text from the wrong perspective.

The writers clearly had fun with the story. Does it matter that a character literally jumped the shark this expansion? It's probably better for your sanity to keep things lighthearted and less dogmatic. This is a Final Fantasy game, after all. But yeah, I'm glad that forum posts don't really communicate steely glares easily. It makes it so much easier to drop a Loporrit joke into the middle of a heated plot continuity argument.

[Yukijin]

Considering this post makes direct references to several things I just said, I feel like it would be bad form to not be the first reply, lol.
(...)

Moose pretty much summed up most of what I've been feeling, however I'll add a bit of my thoughts and flair to it.
I love FF14 to the point of being invested on the lore and taking my sweet time reading and re-reading dialogue, even when voiced, so I don't miss or mix anything that is being presented to me. That been said, when I come to the forum and read through the threads on the Lore section I'm faced with A) People too hung up on their headcannons B) People who are elitists about the Lore they present/argument to the point of having the attitude of "your opinion is invalid because it sucks" or being downwards condescending towards people who are not as knowledgeable or mixed something either by mistake or not paying properly attention to what was presented C) People who argument without a open mind for discussion since they think only their opinion matter so everything that is presented to them is simple ignored or discarded. D) People alienating newbies into lore that are trying to get into the discussion to broaden their horizons on the matter.
And this is just a few examples. Due to this type of behaviors I've been only lurking on threads of my interest or just commenting on things like Youtube Videos or Discord servers.

[waifugenerator]

We all have lockdown-induced brainworms, black & white thinking and a general sense of unease that we have to sublimate with arguing to strangers online. Simple as.

Really though I think the increased vitriol you've observed on the official forums can probably be explained by the size of the community expanding, which includes the more unsavory elements like bad-faith (I too think this phrase makes no sense) posters. Although I'd like to think that they're a vocal minority, it's always easier to see negativity!!

[Cilia]

I'm not at home and phones are not conducive to detailed posts. Will get back to you.

[Iscah]

If I am ever contributing to a negative atmosphere, please tell me. I am at all times arguing from love of the game and story, and a desire for it to be understood and the facts laid out as clearly as possible.

On the rightful definitions of good and bad faith, I went to that ever-helpful repository of knowledge... For the purposes of this sort of discussion, arguing in bad faith seems to relate to the legal use of the term and would mean something like deliberately presenting misleading information about the story and misrepresenting facts. Doing it to be disruptive and not because it's what they really think.

People can hold opposing viewpoints both in good faith, of course, but... I don't even know how to put my feelings into words. Debate here is bitter, so often, and a whole faction of people seem to dislike the story as it stands, and we get mired in that debate before we can even start discussing the story on its own terms.

Previous fandoms I've been in just feel more in agreement at a basic level that the story is good and we're here to talk about it excitedly together. I don't know if it's the particular fandom or if the internet has just changed that much from what it used to be. Whatever it is, I miss it.