A question for SCH mains and enjoyers

[Renathras]

My problem with you is that you stand your ground and fight where it doesn't matter, but when I'm trying to have a productive discussion with you, you start off fine, asking me for clarifications, which I give, and then when I ask you a question in return, you just vanish without a trace and never answer my questions. I can't ascertain your intentions because you always deflect or vanish when I'm trying to have a productive discussion, that's why I'm leaning towards you being here in bad faith. If you want to prove me wrong, maybe actually answer me in the productive discussions instead of perceived attacks upon your person.

You do see how many people I answer in my posts, right? It's possible I may just miss some of yours. I also am not here all the time. I'll go days here and there (or weeks) without coming to this place sometimes.

You've seen me give lengthy answers to your and other people's questions, so it's somewhat confusing to me you think I'm evasive. I'm the one person that will give you FAR MORE than you ever wanted when you ask me questions, and I try to be thorough and will make follow-up posts to clarify points or additional questions.

Like point me to some of those threads, and provided I haven't used up my post quota for the day, I'll see what I can answer.

[Aravell]

You do see how many people I answer in my posts, right? It's possible I may just miss some of yours. I also am not here all the time. I'll go days here and there (or weeks) without coming to this place sometimes.

You've seen me give lengthy answers to your and other people's questions, so it's somewhat confusing to me you think I'm evasive. I'm the one person that will give you FAR MORE than you ever wanted when you ask me questions, and I try to be thorough and will make follow-up posts to clarify points or additional questions.

Like point me to some of those threads, and provided I haven't used up my post quota for the day, I'll see what I can answer.

I can see that you reply to a lot of people and that you write a lot of detail, I don't dispute that. But I put forth a question to you in 4 threads where we were having a healthy discussion beforehand, I never got any answer. Can you see how, from my point of view, that looks like dodging the question? I understand that you don't come here everyday, neither do I, it doesn't change the perception though, especially when we were already having a good discussion before that point.

As for the actual questions, they're all in threads that are dead and buried, I can't be bothered to necro the threads and dig them back up.

[ForsakenRoe]

I never got any answer. Can you see how, from my point of view, that looks like dodging the question?

Maybe he can't give you one, cos he's burned all of his daily post limit on threads asking 'how do you feel about X healer' again, like the answer's gonna have changed

[Renathras]

I can see that you reply to a lot of people and that you write a lot of detail, I don't dispute that. But I put forth a question to you in 4 threads where we were having a healthy discussion beforehand, I never got any answer. Can you see how, from my point of view, that looks like dodging the question? I understand that you don't come here everyday, neither do I, it doesn't change the perception though, especially when we were already having a good discussion before that point.

As for the actual questions, they're all in threads that are dead and buried, I can't be bothered to necro the threads and dig them back up.

Okay...three things:

1) If you can't show me what it is, not only can I not answer it, I can't verify your claim, not can I speculate why I didn't answer it the first time. It not only doesn't give me a chance to address it, it doesn't give me a chance to even argue my innocence, which is pretty unfair.

2) Given my general exuberance to answer questions asked of me when I see them (or even answer things not directed at me), it's pretty unlikely I just ignored a question. It's more likely I didn't see it. Again, you don't dispute that I do this, so the logic follows it wasn't willful if I didn't respond. Given how UN-dodging I address questions, it's very unlikely I was dodging any.

3) Given the above, the rational conclusion is that I'm not acting in bad faith. That as a perception seems like jumping to conclusions. But since you have nothing to point me to, I can't even see if that might have been the case (e.g. did I just not post in here for a time or not post in those threads, was I still responding to others, etc.)

It feels like that scene from Indiana Jones and the Holy Grail where he gets onto his dad for never sitting and talking to him, Henry says "Well, I'm here now. What do you want to talk about?" Indiana kind of dithers, then when prodded, says "I can't think of anything.", to which Henry replies "Then what are you complaining about?!" If you tell me I didn't answer questions, but can't point me at them or think of what they were, it has that same kind of feel.

I'm not accusing you of foul play here (I understand how hard it is to find some specific thing in another thread), but I think the three points above are the crux of it. Given how much I DO reply, and given we can't find the posts to verify, the logical interpretation is PROBABLY that I didn't see them or was away for the time you asked them. If you think of them again in the future, open invitation, ask me any time and I'll try to give you an answer.

Fair?

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EDIT:

Maybe he can't give you one, cos he's burned all of his daily post limit on threads asking 'how do you feel about X healer' again, like the answer's gonna have changed

I swear he posts endless threads asking the same questions as if he will get different answers so he can use that as an excuse to calm us an echo chamber

This, btw, is the kind of thing I'm always talking about...

I wouldn't say all of his threads are bad, some of them do spark some interesting discussions.

Believe it or not, I'm always trying to figure out what people think. It should be obvious by now that I'm interested in compromise, possibly more than anyone else here. But part of that requires understanding other people and what they want. And something I've learned in life is that you can ask a person about the same topic twice, but in different ways/wordings, and get slightly different answers. And sometimes, the key to understanding comes from that difference. Something perhaps not mentioned the first time that seems minor, but that is the key to understanding.

Some of them are good I agree, but he’s got to start asking varied questions

No matter how many times you ask “how do you find WHM” you are going to get roughly the same answer

That's why I have.

I've over time gotten to where I try to ask for more specifics - "more to do during downtime" is a general idea, but not very precise. If I propose "how about more healing?", the answer might be "Sounds good" or it might be "Not that!". It's also why I started the 4 recent threads, to see if keeping each Job's discussion distinct, it can help narrow the discussion.

We have a lot of good discussions (and love me or hate me, I seem to be starting a lot of the ones here), but it's easy to get lost in a lot of them or not get the same answers. Asking "What do you like about DPS Jobs" doesn't really tell me what you specifically dislike about SCH. It might give me ways to make suggestions for things to do with SCH (as I once did: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...e-Proposal-SCH ), but given how many proposals I've made and how many have been rejected, things are still missing that might be avenues overlooked.

I can't merely accept "make everything into BLM" (hyperbole, but you get the idea), but you guys can't accept "leave even one Healer alone in the state that you really like right now". So, if there's a compromise - and I believe there's almost always a compromise to have (as long as one side isn't intransigently stubborn and unwilling...) among mature adults - then it's still elusive, but that doesn't mean it cannot be found.

But to find it requires seeing something that's still missing.

So I ask questions to try and find the missing key(s).

.

Also, some people's views or interpretations change over time. Like Nizzi's post in the SGE thread talking about how SGE and SCH are different and how SGE being weaker and not even comparable is so apparent to them. Maybe they've said it before, but I haven't seen it, so that's a new take from that person to me, and I thought a very well thought out and put together one, worth having. If those threads did nothing but produce that comment, I think that's valuable. And they've produced more besides, so even more valuable.

.

...what are you doing to further the compromise?

[ForsakenRoe]

Two people say something roughly aligned (Ren posts all these threads hoping healer opinion has somehow shifted), and we're told 'see, echo chamber'

And then immediately after, quotes someone disagreeing with those two/kinda taking Ren's side, going against the just-established 'echo chamber' line, and crickets, silence, nada. ????

[Supersnow845]

Has anyone here who doesn’t like current healing ever said that there should be no compromise and that all the healers need to be changed or are you just conflating totally different issues

For example let’s say we changed 3 healers and left 1 in its mostly current form, the two most likely candidates to be left alone are the regen healers, WHM is the games baby healer for better or for worse and AST while I think it’s clunky can be argued has a somewhat interesting DPS expression system

Now let’s say in thread 1 I say “yeah sure we can leave WHM mostly alone for people who like current healers” then in thread 2 I say “I think despite misery being a patchwork fix lilies just do not fix 14’s healing style” that is not me going back on my first point, that is me presenting my opinion on x job when the discussion focuses on y thing

I’ve never been opposed to jobs being left in their current form, hell current WHM is functionally 4.0 WHM anyway on a difficulty level, is anyone really asking for 4 HW SCH’s

So again I’ll say just because I rag on each healer individually when it comes up in conversation does not mean that I’m opposed to one or two staying roughly the same

Do I need to spell this out every time I have an opinion about a healer

[ForsakenRoe]

So again I’ll say just because I rag on each healer individually when it comes up in conversation does not mean that I’m opposed to one or two staying roughly the same

Do I need to spell this out every time I have an opinion about a healer

The issue is, different people have different opinions on what 'roughly the same' translates to. I, for example, would posit that my suggested WHM would be 'roughly the same', given that it retains it's position as 'the simple, strong throughput healer'. Ren argues that it's not 'roughly the same' because I shortened Dia and added a new damage GCD. We're both 'right' and 'wrong' because there's no distinct line in the sand where a job's changes pile up to total 'no longer roughly the same', no magical tipping point where 'two abilities added is still 'roughly the same', oh but a third ability? now it's completely unrecognizable!'

My 'compromise' has already come pre-applied to my designs, nobody got to see the 'non-compromise' versions. I'm fine with WHM remaining 'the more simple to execute' healer re: getting it's healing out. I take issue with the idea that it's damage should be subject to the same lack of skill ceiling to strive for. And apparently, if anyone dares to have a similar stance as me, that means we're an echo chamber

[IDontPetLalas]

Has anyone here who doesn’t like current healing ever said that there should be no compromise and that all the healers need to be changed or are you just conflating totally different issues

For example let’s say we changed 3 healers and left 1 in its mostly current form, the two most likely candidates to be left alone are the regen healers, WHM is the games baby healer for better or for worse and AST while I think it’s clunky can be argued has a somewhat interesting DPS expression system

Now let’s say in thread 1 I say “yeah sure we can leave WHM mostly alone for people who like current healers” then in thread 2 I say “I think despite misery being a patchwork fix lilies just do not fix 14’s healing style” that is not me going back on my first point, that is me presenting my opinion on x job when the discussion focuses on y thing

I’ve never been opposed to jobs being left in their current form, hell current WHM is functionally 4.0 WHM anyway on a difficulty level, is anyone really asking for 4 HW SCH’s

So again I’ll say just because I rag on each healer individually when it comes up in conversation does not mean that I’m opposed to one or two staying roughly the same

Do I need to spell this out every time I have an opinion about a healer

To be fair, there has been far more discussion and arguments m some of which were made in favour of modifying all of the healers and not leaving one "as-is". I'm not going to even try to summarize all of the past threads and posts (of which there have been many), some of which ( I would say a minority) - but argued in favour of leaving one alone.

A caveat- those were lengthy discussions, that's what I recall. Incidentally I would not say that "AST has an interesting DPS expression system", I don't consider spamming malefic that interesting, and the card system is currently not well designed in some aspects.

[Renathras]

Has anyone here who doesn’t like current healing ever said that there should be no compromise and that all the healers need to be changed or are you just conflating totally different issues

Ty has outright said all Healers must be changed, not even one can remain. He also opposed the idea of adding a new healer with the current paradigm while changing the existing four so that a person who likes healing now could "shelter" under the new healer. (That discussion in particular went hairy because of confusion over it being a Class or a Job, since we know classes in FFXIV aren't full Jobs, but he seemed not to like the idea of there being a healer Job that might have an aesthetic he'd like to play that doesn't exist in the changed/more complex state).

Semi has also insisted that they must all be changed (or specifically that WHM can't be "left behind"), and frequently used the argument like Ty that we have to change them all to be complex since someone might like one aesthetic and would be upset if it was "the simple one" and they wanted the complex playstyle (completely disregarding that the people who prefer the simple play style would not have any option at all). Semi is...quite...vehement about this, so if she sees you suggesting it, you'll likely get an earful.

Shurrikhan has made a similar argument to the aesthetic one, too, most recently about Ranged physical, but when I tried to make the connection to Healer and infer that means we shouldn't change all of them, brushed me off. [EDIT to add applicable quote:

I doesn't matter who speaks it. I didn't care for it any more when Misshapen Chair first brought it up, before you co-opted it. I'm not going to care any more for telling 1-2 jobs to f off and be the sacrificial lamb now.

Askellington and Rein_eon_Osborne have both said that not changing one of the healers would be a punishment to whichever was left unchanged, and refused to see that someone like me sees the change as the punishment, not the being left unchanged.

Roe has called it garbage design that shouldn't be allowed to stay. (As she says in her reply to you, she thinks her changes would be "roughly the same", but that's "the same in the sense of still being the easiest" not "the same as in not being changed". Kind of like saying giving WAR two DoTs would still be "the same" since it would still probably be the easiest tank; objectively, that's not the same, her "roughly" is a pretty big approximation.)

Sebezy is a bit more muted, but seems to also hold that they should all be changed, but doesn't engage in these discussions as much. Fulminating and Nizzi are kind of in this camp as well in they also seem to oppose leaving any healers the same. I think IDontPetLalas may be in this same group, I can't remember any specific time she made the above arguments instead, but she's been consistent in disagreeing with me when I bring things like this up, so I THINK she's opposed to it as well?

Two people say something roughly aligned (Ren posts all these threads hoping healer opinion has somehow shifted), and we're told 'see, echo chamber'

You realize that's not why I called this place an echo chamber? I've been calling it that for months, not in reaction to just those two posts. And I'm not even sure I was the one that brought up "echo chamber" in this thread. I think Aravell did...

Regardless, I think it's been pretty consistent here that every time I've brought it up, I've been told we can't do that. Until today, with Deo and now you, I've never seen any other poster here support the idea, and I've been shot down/opposed whenever I propose it.

For example let’s say we changed 3 healers and left 1 in its mostly current form,

WHM and SGE. WHM because it starts at level 1, has a more or less similar playstyle to what it has for the game's entire history absent HW (even in ARR it was played much like today except for very top end 2nd Coils healing, as Sebezy can attest where it was pushed to the limit there and a lot more Cleric and damage was used), and is, as Misshapen Chair (a video I often link on this topic that makes this exact same point: https://youtu.be/sbWubxOTUWU?t=676

The other that would make sense to me would be SGE. While a BIT more complex, the thing it has going for it is it was introduced this way, meaning there's no "lost glory days" effect. That is, many WHMs want Aero 3 and possibly Cleric Stance back; some SGEs want SB DoTs or ARR DoTs back, or the old Eos where you could macro her abilities and such; most ASTs seem to want the old cards and hyper-oGCD stuff to weave and manipulate those like old Sleeve Draw, Royal Road, and Time Dilation. SGE is also the most DPS focused of the Healers right NOW, so there's an argument for SGE being the one to remain as it is. Btw, this is the one in particular Ty hates me mentioning; not to keep mentioning him, but SGE is his favorite of the archetypes, and he points out - rightly, I think - that SGE's lore supports the idea of a more complex healer, both in how controlling nouliths is described as very challenging to master and that unlike the other "give you healing aether" WHM/SCH or "turn back the clock/fate and rewind a bit of time to before you were wounded" AST, SGE is a doctor, their lore describing them being knowledgeable of both magic AND Human anatomy. Meaning they are using a much more technical form of healing, and their nouliths (an advancement from ancient aether-infused rocks that were used as early magic wands) are delivering healing precisely to where the wounds are in the precise way to heal them.

.

In any case, I've posted this a number of times, and am kinda shocked seeing two people in one day seemingly on board with what I've been arguing for months.

To be fair, there has been far more discussion and arguments m some of which were made in favour of modifying all of the healers and not leaving one "as-is".

This. Though "some" means "all that weren't started by Ren", as I've thus far been the only person here to seriously propose and champion the "4 Healers Model" idea.

The "some of which" referred to in favor of leaving one alone were all me, I believe. Originally, it was leave 2 alone - one each of Pure and Barrier, with my proposals being WHM and SGE or WHM and SCH (there is something to be said for SCH/SMN being "entry" Jobs on one class for people that are turbo-casuals to have both together as opposed to one being super simple and the other being super complex). I eventually trimmed this down (the word "compromise" comes to mind) to just one. ANY one. I even said once AST could be the one to not change if that was allowed, the one Healer Job currently that I don't like and don't play. That I would change to that one if even just it could be left alone. I was willing to give up the three I play (AST is the one I don't) for one to stay the same, thinking that 25% staying the same and 75% changing was more than fair...and was told to go pound sand. I even made a proposal for SCH for a relatively minor set of changes that would add a bit of rotational complexity while "paying that off" by easing some of the Job's clunk - which doesn't meet the "1 left alone" standard, even.

That last one is the only one that was at all semi-well received (not universal praise, but not universal condemnation) here, though it was not because it was "leave 1 alone" so much as it was "change even this one, and make changes that include another DoT and DPS rotation optimization", so even that doesn't meet the idea.

So until today with you and Deo both, there has been no agreement with "leave 1 alone" in your case and "leave 2 alone" in Deo's.

[ty_taurus]

Ty has outright said all Healers must be changed, not even one can remain. He also opposed the idea of adding a new healer with the current paradigm while changing the existing four so that a person who likes healing now could "shelter" under the new healer. (That discussion in particular went hairy because of confusion over it being a Class or a Job, since we know classes in FFXIV aren't full Jobs, but he seemed not to like the idea of there being a healer Job that might have an aesthetic he'd like to play that doesn't exist in the changed/more complex state).

I like how you went out of your way to explain my stance for me (crudely) but failed to add in that I am entirely in support of reworking a healer to appeal to players who do not want to DPS as healers. You didn't feel like that was an important aspect of my stance to share with the class? I wonder why.

EDIT: Since you hated the idea of repurposing Conjurer because of arbitrary language that actually doesn't affect the game's engine in any functional way, I came up with a better idea just for you. After finishing the level 30 Conjurer questline a new quest unlocks where Syphie hands you her mother's job stone: White Mage (Classic) or WMC. This is an alternative version of White Mage that shares the same level and equipment, but uses a different job stone, similar to Summoner and Scholar. It's based on traditional White Mage spells.

Here's the full level-up list

Here's the final action list at level 100:

Offensive Spells:
Dia (Classic) - Single target damage with a potency of 430. 1.5 second cast. 200 MP. GCD
Holy (Classic) - AoE Damage around target and all enemies nearby the target with a potency of 215. Inflicts Stun for 4 seconds. 1.5 second cast. 400 MP. GCD.

Healing Spells:
Cure (Classic) - Single target healing with a potency of 600. Instant cast. 300 MP. GCD
Cure II (Classic) - AoE heal on target and allies around target with a potency of 400. 1.5 second cast. 600 MP. GCD
Cure III (Classic) - Single target healing with a potency of 1100. Instant cast. 600 MP.
Cure IV (Classic) - AoE heal on target and allies around target with a potency of 600. 1.5 second cast. 800 MP. GCD
Regen (Classic) - Single target healing over time with a potency of 150. Lasts 30 seconds. Instant cast. 600 MP. GCD.
Regen II(Classic) - AoE healing over time on target and allies around target with a potency of 150. Lasts 45 seconds. 1.5 second cast. 1000 MP. GCD
Arise (Classic) - Resurrects target to a weakened state but with full HP. 2400 MP. 8 second cast. GCD.

Mitigation Spells:
Protect - Single target 15% physical mitigation for 20 seconds. Increases the healing magic potency of your next healing spell by 20%. Instant cast. 300 MP. GCD
Protect II - AoE 10% physical mitigation on self and all allies nearby you for 15 seconds. Increases the healing magic potency of your next healing spell by 20%. 600 MP. GCD.
Shell - Single target 15% magical mitigation for 20 seconds. Increases the healing magic potency of your next healing spell by 20%. Instant cast. 300 MP. GCD
Shell II - AoE 10% magical mitigation on self and allies nearby you for 15 seconds. Increases the healing magic potency of your next healing spell by 20%. 600 MP. GCD.

OGCD Abilities:
Pray - AoE heal on self and all nearby allies with a potency of 400. OGCD. 20 second cooldown. 3 Charges.
Renew - Fully restores HP to self and all allies nearby you. OGCD. 120 second cooldown.
Unicorn - Summons a Unicorn at a fixed location that restores HP to all allies within 30 yalms of it every 3 seconds with a potency of 400. Lasts 15 seconds. OGCD. 120 second cooldown.
Charge - Restores 20% of your missing MP. OGGCD. 45 second cooldown.
Silence - Inflicts Silence for 2 seconds. OGCD. 45 second cooldown.
Blind - Inflicts Blind for 15 seconds. OGCD. 45 second cooldown.

There you go, a healer with as much flavor as a plain oatmeal to suit your tastes independent of the current White Mage, but as a separate job, and with the identity and nomenclature you particularly enjoy.