SE, don't overthink Summoner 7.0. Just give people what they want. Just do it.

[Vinal211]

personally, i believe that this version of SMN can get more complex than the rigid simplicity it is right now, and to me, the simplicity lets my mind freely wander on how it could be improved. do i think it will ever be as complex as old SMN? no, that game style had a complexity unique to it in this game. but this gameplay style is also unique in a way as well. so i think it can still work, it just comes down to whether or not the Devs actually have people checking the forums and stuff for feedback, and whether they'll even use it.

[MonsutaMan]

Lore be damned....

Shinryu

[Vinal211]

Lore be damned....

Shinryu

Shinryu's the one you point out above all others?

nah i kid i kid (and if you weren't saying it insultingly then i apologize for misreading it). i understand the reasoning, but at the same time that logic would restrict us even from Ramuh, Levi, and Shiva. SMN Lore is that anyone, no matter their reserves, can have at most 3 primals "imprinted" upon their soul to be able to be summoned. iirc you can technically remove one from your soul and use that slot for another, but in early HW story we attempt the ritual for one of the other elemental summons, but don't receive anything, even though we got "washed" in their respective. then we discover the Allagans developed the ability of "Trancing" to get around it, internalizing the aether instead of sending it outward as an Egi. but then we proceed to turn that Trance into a Demi-summon of Bahamut (thanks to everyone in the world basically getting touched by the thing when it got blown the fuck up.), technically giving us 4 summons. then out of nowhere, in ShB, we start Trancing and eventually Demi-Summoning Phoenix (also explained in the binding coil raid with Louisoix turned Phoenix letting himself return to just pure aether to heal the land, and subsequently the people.)

Consider what we've been doing since day 1 of our journey as a Scion. finding summoned primals and killing them. every single time, they return to pure aether, and we are subsequently "washed" in it. not even just the elemental summons. Moggle Mog is an ARR primal, not part of the elemental set, yet it would still count as the series Moogle Summon for XIV. every primal in HW, we murder and get washed in its aether (I'm not exactly sure for alexander, but we did dissolve Big Al Prime so...). KoTR is a candidate as well. all the primals in SB? killed, washed in their aether. no matter what Shinryu's pelting us with tons of different aether during the fight, and the main body had to disperse SOMETHING when it dissipated. hell you can make an argument that the Lightwardens of ShB were primals, at the very least Titania, and they could be summoned as well if we so wished. to say nothing of what we accomplish in EW...

So where does that lead us? they say we can only "imprint" three primals on our soul...but they don't say that it's locked to three primals period. they could easily write it off as the WoL, badass sarcastic mute extraordinaire, realizing that trancing separate powerful primals lets them summon "lesser" primals that aren't Ifrit, Titan, Garuda and Bahamut. that lets them open up expansion for SMN into various different routes of reworks and improvements, and doesn't limit them to what we have right now.

but that still comes with them even realizing that and capitalizing on it...

[Renathras]

Lore be damned....

Shinryu

8.0 capstone ability for the next Demi- once the 3 min meta is introduced and we meet Zenos' ghost and find he really cared for us the entire time and lets us absorb his aether for some pivotal event, after which SMNs can summon him as a Demi. There ya go.

EDIT:

I retain my view that it is fundamentally unworkable and the only solution is returning to the drawing board entirely.

Disagree, it works fine and is actually a ton of fun to play. I don't think it's "unworkable" nor "fundamentally" so. I think it's more you'd just like something else instead of it, not that the Job ITSELF has problems, much less unworkable ones.

[fulminating]

Summoner plays itself. This is incredibly boring. Adding some way to do it wrong should be the first priority if they are to keep at this inherently flawed version.

Despite the token differences, the primals hardly have any distinction. This may be due to the extremely short time each is present for, or that astral flow is carrying them. They could change it so that 2/3 are used in a full cycle, introducing more choice - although this would need to be coupled with meaningful downsides and benefits to each - or leaning back towards summoner and separating the summons and caster into cooperative halves.

I retain my view that it is fundamentally unworkable and the only solution is returning to the drawing board entirely.

[Jirah]

Summoner plays itself. This is incredibly boring. Adding some way to do it wrong should be the first priority if they are to keep at this inherently flawed version.

Despite the token differences, the primals hardly have any distinction. This may be due to the extremely short time each is present for, or that astral flow is carrying them. They could change it so that 2/3 are used in a full cycle, introducing more choice - although this would need to be coupled with meaningful downsides and benefits to each - or leaning back towards summoner and separating the summons and caster into cooperative halves.

I retain my view that it is fundamentally unworkable and the only solution is returning to the drawing board entirely.

most jobs tend to be that way, the devs struggle to rework with the past incarnation ingredients but a ground up rework not a shallow adjustment/sanded-down version like MCH or MNK, is required for not just SMN. But SMN of all jobs needs it the most

[fulminating]

The way it has been redesigned leaves little to no room for growth - what can realistically be added to it without heavily restructuring the rotation?

The job currently has very little depth, presumably deliberately - you can shift the crayons around, but ultimately you're never going to want to end them early nor have more than a couple of ruins leeway/2m. That combined with the high mobility on this new summoner is also an issue - I don't think many would say black mage's difficulty lies in its rotation, but more about maintaining it throughout the combat encounter. If new summoner is to be this simple it cannot be this mobile.

Aetherflow being vestigial rather than a core mechanic doesn't help either - most dps have at least two resources to manage, usually 3. (mch has heat/battery, sam sen/kenki(lmao)/positionals, war tank responsibilities/beast gauge/infuriate timer, scholar aetherflow/healer resources/fey gauge(lmao) or bio timer). Summoner barely has aetherflow, crayons are on rails and it's not like cast time really has to be taken into consideration.

The pet also being vestigial rather than a core mechanic doesn't sit well either. What is its point anymore? It doesn't auto attack, it barely even pretends to exist - they even patched out its ability to cast searing light during asphodelos.

The fact that a job where the skill floor and ceiling weren't the same line was sacrificed for this is just further insult - although in fairness there seems to have been a fair amount of that across the board.

I've been over this before so sorry if this sounds uninterested and I'm pretty sure there's some points I've forgotten to mention.

[Vinal211]

The way it has been redesigned leaves little to no room for growth - what can realistically be added to it without heavily restructuring the rotation?

The job currently has very little depth, presumably deliberately - you can shift the crayons around, but ultimately you're never going to want to end them early nor have more than a couple of ruins leeway/2m. That combined with the high mobility on this new summoner is also an issue - I don't think many would say black mage's difficulty lies in its rotation, but more about maintaining it throughout the combat encounter. If new summoner is to be this simple it cannot be this mobile.

Aetherflow being vestigial rather than a core mechanic doesn't help either - most dps have at least two resources to manage, usually 3. (mch has heat/battery, sam sen/kenki(lmao)/positionals, war tank responsibilities/beast gauge/infuriate timer, scholar aetherflow/healer resources/fey gauge(lmao) or bio timer). Summoner barely has aetherflow, crayons are on rails and it's not like cast time really has to be taken into consideration.

The pet also being vestigial rather than a core mechanic doesn't sit well either. What is its point anymore? It doesn't auto attack, it barely even pretends to exist - they even patched out its ability to cast searing light during asphodelos.

The fact that a job where the skill floor and ceiling weren't the same line was sacrificed for this is just further insult - although in fairness there seems to have been a fair amount of that across the board.

I've been over this before so sorry if this sounds uninterested and I'm pretty sure there's some points I've forgotten to mention.

no no, you're all good. honestly even as someone who enjoys the new summoner i get where you're coming from. and a lot of my personal ideas for this class is mainly just riding out on hope that they'll actually do something with it unlike with MCH.

funnily enough, your argument of designing it for little to no room for growth was i think the same reason they gave for changing it around in the first place. they thought that the DoT and beastmaster stuff was reaching a point of being a hassle to try and code or balance properly, i think?

but at the same time, i feel like new SMN probably would benefit from having more to manage between summons. granted this sounds odd I'm sure, but the main issue would putting room for such management, cause i don't think there is a lot of room to work with if you're doing things "properly" (like full on, demi-summon straight to elementals, elementals one after another, immediately popping energy drain and aetherflow stacks alongside searing light. not a lot of room to put a little extra in). so...maybe having the summons have their own CD where you have a 15 second window or so to try and put more in? could have carbuncle stuff or something for that at least.

[Ggwppino]

The way it has been redesigned leaves little to no room for growth

I do not agree. Currently the smn is in a state of sad incompleteness, they gave it the core but it lacks the resources to manage. Adding them and maybe fixing also the level progression which is currently as ridiculous as its 90 status.

The pet also being vestigial rather than a core mechanic doesn't sit well either. What is its point anymore? It doesn't auto attack, it barely even pretends to exist - they even patched out its ability to cast searing light during asphodelos.

Yeah. From my point of view, the pet is one of the key points to make smn less boring. If only they freed it from other summons, it would have infinite potential, currently it's decorative. Managing pet placement is one of the things I miss the most.

The fact that a job where the skill floor and ceiling weren't the same line was sacrificed for this is just further insult.

This is the serious point. They spat in the face of those who play the class. But it's actually spitting in any player's face. As I wrote a few previous posts ago (Here) is a static class that does not provide that the player can improve. This class is frightening from how wrong it is in so many ways.

[Raikai]

The way it has been redesigned leaves little to no room for growth - what can realistically be added to it without heavily restructuring the rotation?

The job currently has very little depth, presumably deliberately - you can shift the crayons around, but ultimately you're never going to want to end them early nor have more than a couple of ruins leeway/2m. That combined with the high mobility on this new summoner is also an issue - I don't think many would say black mage's difficulty lies in its rotation, but more about maintaining it throughout the combat encounter. If new summoner is to be this simple it cannot be this mobile.

Aetherflow being vestigial rather than a core mechanic doesn't help either - most dps have at least two resources to manage, usually 3. (mch has heat/battery, sam sen/kenki(lmao)/positionals, war tank responsibilities/beast gauge/infuriate timer, scholar aetherflow/healer resources/fey gauge(lmao) or bio timer). Summoner barely has aetherflow, crayons are on rails and it's not like cast time really has to be taken into consideration.

The pet also being vestigial rather than a core mechanic doesn't sit well either. What is its point anymore? It doesn't auto attack, it barely even pretends to exist - they even patched out its ability to cast searing light during asphodelos.

The fact that a job where the skill floor and ceiling weren't the same line was sacrificed for this is just further insult - although in fairness there seems to have been a fair amount of that across the board.

I've been over this before so sorry if this sounds uninterested and I'm pretty sure there's some points I've forgotten to mention.

I really disagree on the first statement of no room for growth... Feature-wise, they literally have the remaining elements (Water, Ice and Lightning) to add as gemstones. I would guess that is a pretty obvious path to add a trait, post level 90, to change the gemstones to those new ones whenever you enter Phoenix phase.

There they have growth room and can, for example, re-introduce a heavier cast time oriented play there as opposed to the first set having most insta casts.

This probably wouldnt do much to address the job's lack of depth, though. For that, and the only thing I believe it need to be revised (like you said) is Aetherflow feeling like a leftover (both mechanically and thematically) from the previous Summoner. If they choose to rework that aspect, there is a fine point to add job depth if they find a way to make Aetherflow interact more distinctively with the gemstone rotation, or the demis.

I think that, like MCH, thematically SMN is in a great spot. But mechanically it feels like a level 70 job playing at 90.

edit: Forgot to mention the Carbuncle.

For me... either make Summon Carbuncle entirely cosmetic and optional or find a way to re-incorporate the pet in combat.

If they absolutely have to remain as they are... at the very least make it auto-attack, like Eos auto-heals. A tiny contribution to the dps, but at the very least it would make the little thing something more than just a hindrance for your personal shield.