The Devs need a much needed thanks!

[Midareyukki]

Well, there's the usual sad group of permanently negative trolls who can't stand the thought of people actually being happy, but in general it's nice to see that even in this cesspool of negativity, the game is so popular that positive posts still appear. Personally, I've loved my time in FFXIV, and both ShB and EW hit it out of the park for me. The devs deserve all the praise I can give them. But hey, people love to point out how that 600-something page thread "must" mean people hate the game, even though a large swath of it is people disagreeing with the OP and celebrating this xpac, so why shouldn't the same logic apply to the ever-increasing length of this thread and its continued presence on the front page, eh?

Bait.

You know darn well that isn't what's being touted around, get over yourself. The thread's already made it clear: people like the devs, they just want some faults being owned and tackled, nothing more. And constantly denouncing people who point those out as "haters" won't help the game in any way. You like the game? Great. You want to praise the development team? Great, a lot of people do online already! What, you think the forums are too negative and would like to change it? Well good for you, I made a thread just for that, how about that, go out there and contribute! But don't be pedantic by calling everyone who said anything as "omg too negative, haters waah". And I bet, if anyone answers you, the only thing you'll say is "see? You're against what I say, you must be a hater!". Except, no. You're being called out on literally being on the polar opposite of what you claim to dislike about this thread. You aren't being any different.

Just let the thread die otherwise if you don't care. This thread only has drama bait, there's no need for you to do the same. If you really want to put actions to your words, say something nice in the proper platforms.

[Atelier-Bagur]

Bait.

You know darn well that isn't what's being touted around, get over yourself. The thread's already made it clear: people like the devs, they just want some faults being owned and tackled, nothing more. And constantly denouncing people who point those out as "haters" won't help the game in any way. You like the game? Great. You want to praise the development team? Great, a lot of people do online already! What, you think the forums are too negative and would like to change it? Well good for you, I made a thread just for that, how about that, go out there and contribute! But don't be pedantic by calling everyone who said anything as "omg too negative, haters waah". And I bet, if anyone answers you, the only thing you'll say is "see? You're against what I say, you must be a hater!". Except, no. You're being called out on literally being on the polar opposite of what you claim to dislike about this thread. You aren't being any different.

But arent the devs already constantly apologizing for their mess ups? Who'se saying that they're arent? Are they just blind or havent actually paid attention to the communication the team has been giving us? We had two quick posts within the same patch cycle twice about the savage and job balancing back to back. Its just unfortunately stuff that for a good portion of players didnt want to hear or feel like its still not enough so they're being angry about it.

Currently we're getting a live letter in the upcoming week where they'll be talking and reviewing a lot of the feedback from 6.2 and onward. My issue is the huge amounts of disingenuous people among the community and honestly its sometimes kinda hard to ignore when they're doing a swell job of being the loudest group within the pile of feedback the forums has.

[Midareyukki]

But arent the devs already constantly apologizing for their mess ups? Who'se saying that they're arent? Are they just blind or havent actually paid attention to the communication the team has been giving us? We had two quick posts within the same patch cycle twice about the savage and job balancing back to back. Its just unfortunately stuff that for a good portion of players didnt want to hear or feel like its still not enough so they're being angry about it.

...okay and?

They apologize for their "mistakes". Sure. And what about the actions they take after their apology? I'm not talking about the times Yoshida said "We apologize for what happened". I'm talking about what they did after. Not everything ended up fine, some stuff are still only band-aided. Besides, as good as the devs are, it doesn't exempt them from being called out on those aspects. Otherwise they wouldn't apologize at all. Maybe you wouldn't have those posts back to back if the dev team had listened to its playerbase. Rather than telling healers to "go play Ultimate".

I mean, Atelier, I told you not even a day ago: It doesn't matter if "other companies" do it worse, if there are stuff that are needed to be pointed out for there to be any improvement, even if we're doing better than others, why wouldn't we? It doesn't exempt them from criticism. What it does is earn them respect and consideration, but it also needs to be reciprocal. If they don't award their fans with respect, why would anyone give them in turn? And some stuff haven't been apologized for in a proper and responsible way. That had nothing to do with "whiners", you really need to let that argument go. Because it always seems that's your only answer to things, when you know by now that the way people end up is either that they learn to respect the devs, or people just turn against them on the spot. It had to do with the way they approached the subject, and then the subsequent reaction. Even if they're better than other devs, they can still trip up, right? Even monkeys fall from trees. And they can take it when we say "yo, you tripped here", right? To me, that's not being disrespectful, that's doing what the devs asked for: they wanted fans to give feedback, even if it meant it was negative. So that the game improves. Or, what, should we only give them positive feedback from here on and never address problems that arise?

I never said "we wanted an apology". I said we wanted them to own the stuff that didn't work that well, and actively improve them. "I'm sorry" rings hollow when the action you take is weak. YES there are reasons, but there are also reasons for people to question the weight of the measures taken. Plus, just because you're tired of all the negativity, you shouldn't deny that some things have been addressed rather weakly and could be better addressed in the future. And again, I wasn't even talking about the whiners, because odds are Square won't care for them. We all know those guys are the worst part. I'm talking about people who aren't going to that extreme and are still called haters for doing so.

Anyway. Yeah, they're going to have a Live Letter soon, and they will be parsing the threads for feedback, but this thread doesn't have any. If anything, the only thing that can be construed from this is that some fans want them to be more transparent. But that's beyond Yoshida's abilities, and if the upper guys don't want that, we won't have any, period. Everything else can be dismissed.

[Atelier-Bagur]

...okay and?

They apologize for their "mistakes". Sure. And what about the actions they take after their apology? I'm not talking about the times Yoshida said "We apologize for what happened". I'm talking about what they did after. Not everything ended up fine, some stuff are still only band-aided. Besides, as good as the devs are, it doesn't exempt them from being called out on those aspects. Otherwise they wouldn't apologize at all. Maybe you wouldn't have those posts back to back if the dev team had listened to its playerbase. Rather than telling healers to "go play Ultimate".

I mean, Atelier, I told you not even a day ago: It doesn't matter if "other companies" do it worse, if there are stuff that are needed to be pointed out for there to be any improvement, even if we're doing better than others, why wouldn't we? It doesn't exempt them from criticism. What it does is earn them respect and consideration, but it also needs to be reciprocal. If they don't award their fans with respect, why would anyone give them in turn? And some stuff haven't been apologized for in a proper and responsible way. That had nothing to do with "whiners", you really need to let that argument go. Because it always seems that's your only answer to things, when you know by now that the way people end up is either that they learn to respect the devs, or people just turn against them on the spot. It had to do with the way they approached the subject, and then the subsequent reaction. Even if they're better than other devs, they can still trip up, right? Even monkeys fall from trees. And they can take it when we say "yo, you tripped here", right? To me, that's not being disrespectful, that's doing what the devs asked for: they wanted fans to give feedback, even if it meant it was negative. So that the game improves. Or, what, should we only give them positive feedback from here on and never address problems that arise?

again you keep misconstruing my actual arguments, were in my posts did I ever say "only positive criticism"? in fact thats an oxymoron in itself, there's no such thing as "positive" criticism. There's however constructive and valid criticism, and Ive done my fair share of expressing it in some of this game's areas. You and many people here keep acting as if I want everyone to speak no evil, see no evil, hear no evil or some such nonsense when that sort of mentality is nonsensical in of itself. I want this game to improve, this game isnt perfect. But I also want for people to chill out with a lot of their takes where they start acting all disingenuous over the game and my issue is that doesnt help the game to grow, that kind of attitude just doesnt solve anything at all.

[Silverbane]

Bait.

Entry No. 1 in the hater playbook: everything you disagree with is bait posted by a troll.

You know darn well ...

Entry No. 2: trans-Internet mind reading, knowing what the person you disagree with really thinks.

people like the devs, they just want some faults being owned and tackled, nothing more.

Entry No. 3: grand generalizations about "people," because what you alone want isn't rhetorically powerful enough.

And constantly denouncing people who point those out as "haters" won't help the game in any way.

Entry No. 4: denouncing labeling of people when people you disagree with do it (e.g., "haters"), but being just fine with it when it's applied to those people you disagree with (e.g., "simps," "shills," "boot-lickers," "perfect consumer," and so on.)

Just let the thread die otherwise if you don't care. This thread only has drama bait,

Entry No. 5: telling people to give you the last word on the subject.

Later, regarding their post:

Oh it isn't in good faith.

That's an admission of intentional trolling by Midareyukki, there, folks.
Not that it wasn't obvious.

[Midareyukki]

Dissection

And what do you want? If anything you're nothing but a hater on me. Literally every time you show up it's to trash talk me, like a really bad stalker.

Ad hominem much, Silver?

[SharMalqir]

Silverbane this kind of response is not helpful or progressing the thread in anyway shape or form if the only thing you have to say is to take sentences out of context and do you're own mental gymnastics in an attempt to bully someone who is legitimately trying to bring or find constructive criticism for the game, then please go find another thread to post in.

this goes for everyone who needs to hear it, the game is by no means terrible but its also by no means the best in the world. things can always improve and the dev's can get feedback that is helpful. saying the game could use improvements is not saying the game is bad or undeserving of praise for what it does well. it just means there are aspects in it that could use more attention in development for the better enjoyment of players and dev's.

[Striker44]

this goes for everyone who needs to hear it, the game is by no means terrible but its also by no means the best in the world. things can always improve and the dev's can get feedback that is helpful. saying the game could use improvements is not saying the game is bad or undeserving of praise for what it does well. it just means there are aspects in it that could use more attention in development for the better enjoyment of players and dev's.

This is true. The question is - what is the point of a particular thread? There are plenty of threads that are about providing a variety of critiques. This is one of the few particular threads that is about celebrating the (many) things the game does very well. To turn it into attacking the devs or just bad-mouthing everything doesn't belong here. And a lot of people, myself included, already find the game brings us a ton of enjoyment - we recognize that as humans, nothing will ever be perfect, so I'm more than content with how good FFXIV is at the moment.

[Zebraoracle]

This is true. The question is - what is the point of a particular thread? There are plenty of threads that are about providing a variety of critiques. This is one of the few particular threads that is about celebrating the (many) things the game does very well. To turn it into attacking the devs or just bad-mouthing everything doesn't belong here. And a lot of people, myself included, already find the game brings us a ton of enjoyment - we recognize that as humans, nothing will ever be perfect, so I'm more than content with how good FFXIV is at the moment.

Except this thread was completely made in bad faith, with the TC literally disparaging those with an opposite opinion in their original post, and isn't a genuine praise thread, hence why this thread turned into an absolute crapfest. Multiple people have also said this multiple times throughout the thread. People have also said genuine praise threads usually do fine on this board, because the purpose of them isn't to counter negative feedback/attack people who have issues with the game like this one.

[Kaurhz]

Bait.

You know darn well that isn't what's being touted around, get over yourself. The thread's already made it clear: people like the devs, they just want some faults being owned and tackled, nothing more. And constantly denouncing people who point those out as "haters" won't help the game in any way. You like the game? Great. You want to praise the development team? Great, a lot of people do online already! What, you think the forums are too negative and would like to change it? Well good for you, I made a thread just for that, how about that, go out there and contribute! But don't be pedantic by calling everyone who said anything as "omg too negative, haters waah". And I bet, if anyone answers you, the only thing you'll say is "see? You're against what I say, you must be a hater!". Except, no. You're being called out on literally being on the polar opposite of what you claim to dislike about this thread. You aren't being any different.

Just let the thread die otherwise if you don't care. This thread only has drama bait, there's no need for you to do the same. If you really want to put actions to your words, say something nice in the proper platforms.

I don't really think this comment is made in good faith considering both sides are equally as guilty for needlessly labeling as a thinly veiled attempt at trying to denounce a point. Sorry, but people reap what they sow.

If people come into a thread being positive or disagreeing to only be labeled as either a; white knight, shill, simp, bootlicker. Then the expectancy to be called a hater, etc., isn't really a far stretch away from a reasonable response. Why should people feel the need of having that courtesy extended to them when many feel so disinclined to provide that courtesy in the first place? But alas this brings on the main problem with the forums in that any type of feedback whether positive or negative must be seen as universally accepted and homogenous across the broader community. There's some form of immunity to the acceptance that a thread will always have a counter-response to it.

Not that you yourself are guilty of, but seemingly the 'people' you elect apply this to are just as equally guilty.