Thread: Dragoon 6.2 Civil discussion thread

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

And generating an extra Eye in those situations can do as much harm as good, as now your LotD would be desynced from Lance Charge (which you'd not have popped with that "pull almost dead").

You can, most of the time, adjust to have at least one NAS and the STD under buffs and any kind of downtime should fix this anyway (for example between packs in a dungeon or after a boss is killed, since the cooldowns keep rolling). This kind of flexibility is only allowed by having MD, as otherwise it'd result in lost eyes.

And in any case, in this game what matters the most is getting more uses out of attacks (except in Save the Queen areas with stacked damage increasing actions and Eureka with stuff like Double Edge), so getting additional LotD windows will almost always be better than putting it under buffs.

A LotD under LC gives 134 extra potency from the two NAS and the STD (not counting Power Surge here, which would give an extra 1% due to multiplicative buff stuff). An extra LotD in an encounter is 1700 potency.

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

What part of "there is no reason to hit MD before [entering an already-prepared] LotD" suggested otherwise? That was my point; HJ's timing vs. Geirskogul is inconsequential outside of the rarest of rare situations because you have 15s in which to dump HJpart2 (MD). MD therefore ends up just making the job that much easier, rather than actually giving any further opportunities for skill expression. It's a jiob built to hit things on CD, with core components now functioning only to make things easier to hit on CD.

I think we're talking about different things here. I am not talking about pooling MD into buffs, holding it for long (side note, MD could last 20s for the rare occasions you might wanna do this) or something of the sort. I am talking about the fact that doing HJ > GSK can, in many cases, be the absolute difference between getting an extra eye and LotD window or not. It can be as small as 2 seconds of difference. In P3S, you have a tight window to execute this double life, or you lose the 2nd STD on the boss.

Therefore, if they change HJ to make it give the eye directly (my initial worry), then they'd remove the flexibility that MD gives (so lower ceiling for nothing): it allows us to use HJ before GSK with two eyes already stored, which can easily result in more eyes throughout an encounter and thus more LotD.

A poignant example is DSR, which I've mentioned already: due to the HJ and MD merge, we literally have to use HJ as our first action (before any GCD!), for example at the beginning of phase 2 with Thordan, to make sure we get two eyes before he goes away. Same thing happens if we reach such a phase with two eyes: we still want to use HJ first, but if HJ gave the eye, we'd overcap and wouldn't be able to get a 2nd eye at the end of this phase.

Getting extra eyes by playing around encounter timings and downtime is one of the things that can increase DRG's damage by quite a lot. The job benefits greatly from this kind of optimization in a very similar way to NIN (mudras keep rolling while nothing's happening), because we can get extra eyes that will then fall under more buffs.

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Sorry, got confused by the "just have Draconian Fire give us a scale when these weaponskills [antecedent: RT/DF] are used," followed by "it's probably better for scales to be granted by RT/DF." Describing what you intended as the "Leaden Fist treatment" was kind of confusing in that Leaden Fist is a simply "+100 potency on next <Weaponskill A>" procced by a separate weaponskill used at the same point in combo as the benefiting weaponskill, which is more like TT/RT, rather than WT>RT or FnC>RT.

The "followed by" was a different suggestion of me pondering, in a different post as a response to what you said to my initial one, a different situation in which the scales were directly granted by the 5th positional GCD if we had a maximum of three.

In my initial message, I think it's clear that what I mean is for the weaponskills to be direct upgrades. The 2nd part of what I said that you quoted now ("followed by") happened after you had already misunderstood what I initially said in the first post.

However, I did get mixed up with Leaden's Fist's effect: in my head it was what grants Bootshine the autocrit, but this doesn't really change the point. Leaden Fist's effect is only consumed by Bootshine, thus Draconian Fire should give an effect to be consumed only by RT/DF and in this way we can get rid of TT and DoS when their upgrades are learned, since they're barely used afterwards.

I’m just as worried as the next person about how many ways they could mess dragoon up, but let’s be optimistic. It could be the rework was delayed for technical reasons. The devs have seemed more aware of ping issues lately and it’s possible they tested dragoon at high ping. The changes could be centered around making the animation lock/ogcd delay on jumps and dives smoother and that’s giving them some trouble. Could also be one of the devs tested the ARR changes on dragoon and realized how boring dragoon is to level and decided to give it more of its kit (in some form) earlier. It is kinda weird that dragoon doesn’t get its full combos until 60 and doesn’t get life of the dragon until 70.

I wish you all Dragoon players the best,

Not sure what changes are yet to come that brought such concern & while I don’t play it’s job all I can say is try not to over stress it & go accordingly about your concerns.

I wish you Dragoons the best

"Wait to see what the changes are before complaining." But DRG doesn't really need changes right now? At most a couple QoL changes would be nice. But this is planned to be an extensive rework. DRG's gcds flow pretty nicely right now, and all of their ogcds have already been changed to be completely doubleweave-able with each other except for Stardiver. There are plenty of other jobs that require you to doubleweave extensively in order to maximize damage output so I don't see why this is an issue fundamentally with the job itself. If they think that that's an issue then they would have to be looking to change like 3/4ths of all the jobs in the game.

Originally Posted by Rhym

"Wait to see what the changes are before complaining." But DRG doesn't really need changes right now? At most a couple QoL changes would be nice. But this is planned to be an extensive rework. DRG's gcds flow pretty nicely right now, and all of their ogcds have already been changed to be completely doubleweave-able with each other except for Stardiver. There are plenty of other jobs that require you to doubleweave extensively in order to maximize damage output so I don't see why this is an issue fundamentally with the job itself. If they think that that's an issue then they would have to be looking to change like 3/4ths of all the jobs in the game.

I don't think that DRG needs a rework rly.
But if they're going to get one then yeah I think we should wait and see what the changes actually are.
Otherwise people are just getting riled up and angry about something they don't even know what it is yet and might even end up enjoying.

It's another thing to discuss what you want to see and don't want to see.
But just ranting about the worst case scenario as if you know for sure it's going to happen is kinda pointless and weird and quite a lot of people are engaging in that.
If people are going to complain about it at least complain about something that is an actual thing and not just totally imagined and just wild speculation that is intentionally bad for the sake of being mad.

It kinda feels like all nuance just constantly goes out the window because people want to have an excuse to rant and complain.

Originally Posted by Kolsykol

But just ranting about the worst case scenario as if you know for sure it's going to happen is kinda pointless and weird and quite a lot of people are engaging in that.
If people are going to complain about it at least complain about something that is an actual thing and not just totally imagined and just wild speculation that is intentionally bad for the sake of being mad.

I find it rather understandable that people are concerned. Pretty much every single recent rework has ended up dramatically changing the job in question and alienated former players of that job.

Originally Posted by Rolder50

I find it rather understandable that people are concerned. Pretty much every single recent rework has ended up dramatically changing the job in question and alienated former players of that job.

Yeah that's my concern as well. With a lot of these reworks/changes the devs seem to pander towards 2 groups of people: people who actually enjoy and play the class... or people who don't like the class. A good example for this is summoner. Whether you love or hate the job is irrelevant, but it certainly is a far cry from what is was in Shadowbringers and lost all of its previous complexity and gameplay nuances (both good and bad) thus alienating the people who actually liked the class and just wanted to see the yank gone. I feel the same is true with samurai, the kaiten removal was simply an attempt at making the job easier and less punishing, but unlike summoner, it hasn't gotten any popularity with this change. I am not entirely sure if any dragoon main at all even asked for any change to the class aside from the obvious, when other classes seem to be needing that much more. I just don't wish to see dragoon dumbed down for the sole purpose of appealing to people who otherwise don't even touch the job, when there are 18 other classes to choose from. I hope this is not the route the devs want to take, especially since a big part of the community enjoys more challenging jobs such as black mage, however the devs do not seem to realize that.

Originally Posted by Curinteru

SE talked about button bloating and having too many oGCDs. However, we, main DRGs, don't want our job to change because we love it.

Well, I have the perfect solution to both opinions:

Just make Spineshatter do no damage and have 2 or 3 charges (they could even be shared with Elusive jump). BOOM! perfect DRG, we supress having to weave Spineshatter and we win some mobility without touching a job which is already (almost) perfect.

What do you guys, think?

I have question. I keep seeing everyone suggest removing the potency from spineshatter dive, but... what's spine shattering about that? It sounds like everyone just wants one less jump ability in favor of having a gap closer along with a disengage. Reaper has that, and samurai has that, monk doesn't, and technically dragoon doesn't... is that a request for homogenization or is that viewed as nuanced design?