Dragoon is a pretty complete Job. What could productively change in 6.20 (or beyond)?

**Eorzean_username** · 05-14-2022 09:08 AM

Other threads about 6.10 → 6.20+ Dragoon

I tend to write detailed posts that don't fit well as basic replies to megathreads. But I want to link these other threads about 6.20 Dragoon that already exist, and whose discussions should also be considered:
6.2 Dragoon Potential Changes... →

On the topic of DRG being busy and button bloat →

Context for these discussions

Game Director Yoshida statements during "Live Letter LXX" and "6.1 Patch Notes Reading Stream", based on 3rd-party translation work by Iluna Minori of FFXIV Reddit Discord:

[...] we can't just put too much adjustments without going through discussions on whether the changes are valid or not, and we're doing the same for DRG coming patch 6.2...so I'd like you all to play on the jobs for a bit, and tell us whether we went too far or not, and I'll appreciate if you can honestly tell us so.

[...] for DRG, they will have to think further on how to adjust them, and its complexity which makes them change majorly on animation for now.

Jobs that are deemed too busy like DRG or AST are currently under discussion from dev teams as well, so you can expect more changes for Patch 6.2

First of all — how "busy" does 6.10 Dragoon actually feel?

ie... How are other players feeling about it now — especially those with less-ideal connections?

I think that Dragoon's burst windows (especially the 2-minute window) had gotten slightly out-of-hand in 6.00, due to the extra charges, extra actions, and Jump animation locks.

I believe that the indicator for this was that it got to the point that the frequent advice that I saw in response to "How do I fit everything into my burst window in X or Y encounter??" was along the lines of "Well, lol, if you can't double-weave Jumps natively, then install [this-or-that 3rd Party Tool for latency reduction effects]".

I personally feel that the reductions to Jump-action animation locks in Patch 6.10 resulted in heavily-mitigating this issue, to the point that I feel the "busyness" of Dragoon is now within the boundaries of "fair", even without "3rd Party Tools™".

However, I am fortunate enough to have a relatively good connection to the NA servers (70-80 ping on most days). Therefore, I'm particularly curious whether the changes have made the packed Dragoon burst window feel "workable" for all players. If you have a "less ideal" connection, how does 6.10 Dragoon feel for you?

**Eorzean_username** · 05-14-2022 09:09 AM

Possible changes for 6.20 — What could still be productively adjusted on Dragoon?

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First of all — what aspects of Dragoon are currently working well?
I personally feel like Dragoon, while I would definitely not call it "perfect", is currently one of the most comfortable and clean Job designs in FFXIV. For the most part, it just... works.

For example, I can't personally say that I see any reason to modify any of these aspects of Dragoon:
The core 10-GCD combo cycle. This feels distinct to Dragoon, and I think it's fun/cool.

The core OGCD functionality, aesthetics, and design. These "just work", they're fun to press, they feel good.

The core rotational loop of Build—Buff—Life—Dump. It's mostly-intuitive, accessible, and mostly feels good/fun to execute.

Any drastic adjustments to the fundamental ideas of Dragoon's current rotational flow seem unnecessary — although it could still be implemented more cleanly, or adjusted and "modernized" a bit.

This leads me to the opinion that Dragoon, in its current state, really only needs "Quality of Life" tweaks, and/or "polishing", "cleaning up rough edges", etc.

——————

Then... what current aspects of Dragoon could reasonably benefit from adjustment or improvement?

Dragon Sight
The details of why Dragon Sight has sunk to a miserable state at this point have been discussed ad-nauseum by now, so I'll skip "lancing a dead drake", so to speak.

But, basically, "Dragon Sight" in its current form not only remains a logistical nuisance to activate, but also now has little better identity than "I'm an Astrologian Card with a 2-minute cooldown and no graphic".

This poor thing... needs help. Or some polite euthanasia.
Blood for Blood / "Lance Charge" / Blood of the Dragon
This one might seem like a peculiar thing to even bring up, but honestly, I — and at least some other friends that I've talked to about this — feel like the casting animation and swirling blue aura of "Blood of the Dragon" was really an iconic part of Dragoon, stretching all the way back to Heavensward, and the "Blood" theming in the names also had good "lore resonance", so to speak.

Likewise, I think that "Lance Charge", albeit fitting for Lancers, is... very underwhelming as an action title for Dragoons.

There is no objective gameplay issue here, I just feel like it's undermining the "aesthetics" and "flavor" of the Job. And while they don't take top priority in design debates for practical reasons, these aspects of a Job's fantasy do matter for the player experience!
Movement
Dragoon has a bit of "That One Meme with The Cat Watching The Dog Be Hugged" going on with Melee Mobility in EW. Especially in spite of Dragoon usually being the FF franchise's "Super Jumpy Job" that is traditionally depicted as swooping all over the place like Batman.

Elusive Jump is cool, and of course, makes players feel Very Clever™ when used "creatively" to move around. But realistically, it's still awkward and unintutive, and not always an 'accessible' technique, either, due to all the camera-wobbling required. And frankly, it's also just weird, in a kinda-not-really-good way, that Dragoons have been conditioned to move themselves around like a panicking lobster.

And as for Spineshatter Dive... compared to freely-available tools like Monk "Thunderclap", Ninja "Shukuchi", and Reaper "Egress", or DPS-neutral short-CD tools like Samurai "Gyoten"... Dragoon's Potency-important Spineshatter Dive just does not function on-par — not even with charges, because in FFXIV players's minds, "charges" just means "Hold even more uses for burst windows?? Okay!!"
Life Surge
Due to Life Surge pressuring Dragoon to try to consume it with a very specific GCD, Life Surge has very little leeway for "when" it is activated.

Even with charges, this can lead to uncomfortable clashes between Life Surge and other actions that have strict cooldowns and must not be delayed.

The problem is that Life Surge's charges do not address the fact that Dragoon's very long combo cycle takes a long time to loop back around to a point that Life Surge wants to be used at.

So while Life Surge cooldown itself might not be "lost" by delaying it in favor of a more urgent OGCD, the "effectiveness" will still be drifted disappointingly. This can cause uncomfortable dilemmas during burst windows — sometimes, things can really get tangled, and so you skip Heavens Thrust and think "I'll use it on Fifth Hit", but then it clashes again...

I think that this is not a huge issue, and the times it clashes so badly is rare, but if we're talking about "cleaning up" Dragoon, I guess this is an out-standing aspect of awkwardness.
Spineshatter and Dragonfire Dives
Some players feel that having a large variety of Jumps makes Dragoon "Dragoon-like", and I can understand that perspective, but I'm not sure that I personally agree.

In a lot of FF games, Dragoon just has one universal Jump, and it still feels distinctly "Dragoon-like". So I feel like High Jump, and its very frequent usage, already captures that "Dragoon-like" quality cleanly enough on its own.

Therefore, I see Spineshatter Dive — especially with 2 charges — as mostly just key-clutter and weave-clutter. It no longer Stuns. It no longer generates Eyes. It just doesn't seem to have much personality anymore... it's like "High Jump's less popular cousin".

So I think that Dragoon could consolidate key space, and free up room for other actions — or even just weave-space for things like Feint — by viewing the current state of Spineshatter as being a disposable action.
Dragon Gauge / Life of the Dragon
Despite being so core to Dragoon's playstyle, I think that the Gauge and Life design is actually one of the most awkward current parts of Dragoon.

The reasons that I think this are:
• Dragon Gauge / Life feels weird, in that it's on a strange "timer" system that doesn't really sync up with how most Job Gauges function.

• The weird mix of a Timer, but also the 10s CD on Nastrond, leads to a strange and vaguely-unintuitive Gauge/Burst design.

• That one weird "hangnail" Nastrond that always ends up outside burst windows, which feels like the rotational equivalent of finding an unused firecracker in your garage, 1 week after the actual holiday event ended.

• The, honestly, clunky and awkard "stutter" portion of Life, where Geirskogul turns into Nastrond, but has a separate CD timer, so the entry of Life needs to be "double-tapped" Geirskogul+Nastrond, while the exit of Life ends up with a "Jump Scare" style Geirskogul that suddenly pops up after Nastrond disappears... and if you don't anticipate and weave it immediately, the entire cycle drifts problematically.

• The awkward way that Mirage Dive has to be manipulated in situations where Dragoon does not want to enter Life at the wrong time. This stems from Geirskogul's strict CD demanding immediate use every time it refreshes, while also holding the dual purpose of entering Life... all of which means that generating Eyes in the wrong order can push a Dragoon into a "no-win" corner rotationally and Potency-wise.

I don't personally feel that the core style of the Dragoon gameplay loop needs drastic changes, but I can still see how the current Life design feels somewhat inelegant, awkward, unclean, dated, etc.

So I think that Dragon Gauge / Life could be cleaned up and modernized a bit.

I think that this would also have the additional benefit of allowing Dragoon to have more room to grow in the future, since the current Life system seems to struggle to add any new or interesting details.

**Eorzean_username** · 05-14-2022 09:10 AM

How could those various minor issues be addressed without disrupting what's currently enjoyable about Dragoon?

Dragon Sight
Lots of different suggestions have been made all over the various FFXIV discussion sites, and these forums, including:
Make <mo> macros in FFXIV not-terrible by allowing <mo> macros to use the Action Queue and respond like normal actions.

Make Dragon Sight a "Dance Partner"-type effect where you choose who it will affect beforehand.

Fold Dragon Sight into a different action, such as "Lance Charge" or "Battle Litany".

Make Dragon Sight an untargeted partywide effect ("Dragon Gaze"?).

Just delete Dragon Sight completely.

Blood for Blood / "Lance Charge" / Blood of the Dragon
A trait called "Blood for Blood" could upgrade "Lance Charge" to "Blood of the Dragon" at level 50+. This would feel like a nice "Graduation Day" for Dragoons reaching the end of ARR / beginning of HW.

Something like:
Level 30 — Lance Charge — Increases damage dealt by 5% for 15 seconds.

Level 54 — Trait: Blood for Blood — Upgrades Lance Charge to Blood of the Dragon.

Level 54 — Blood of the Dragon — Increases damage dealt by 10% for 20 seconds and makes you look cool.

And so Dragoon regains the "swirly blue dragon" aura — specifically, during its burst windows. It's a minor thing, but I'd like this a lot!

Movement
I personally do not want to see Elusive Jump edited or removed. I think that Elusive Jump is cool, it's responsive, it feels good, I like it. I don't think that Elusive Jump itself should be changed.

Instead, just give Dragoon a "Reverse Elusive Jump" — you know, "Unelusive Jump", or whatever. It works the same as Elusive Jump, except it sends you forwards.

I personally think that is all Dragoon would really "need" to feel good or "on-par", mobility-wise.

Life Surge
As with other actions, lots of different suggestions have been made all over the various FFXIV discussion sites, and these forums, including:
Life Surge can only be consumed by Heavens' Thrust

Life Surge sets the next Weaponskill to a flat potency value (ie, all Weaponskills have equal potency under Life Surge)

Life Surge sets the potency of 5th Combo hits to be equal to Heavens' Thrust

Life Surge no longer causes a Critical Hit, but instead, simply increases the Potency of the next action by a flat amount (like the old Stormblood version of Dark Knight "Dark Arts")

Life Surge is removed entirely

Most of those possibilities seem to suck away a lot of the flavor and satisfaction from using Life Surge correctly... but at the same time, the action is a legitimately awkward in its current state. However, I really don't have a strong personal opinion about any specific option, myself.

Spineshatter and Dragonfire Dives
I feel like, at this point, Spineshatter and Dragonfire can be thought of as basically 2 actions that serve the same basic function: "an extra cooldown Jump animation to weave in during burst windows".

But Spineshatter's the less-impressive visual, and it feels like a forgettable rotational hangnail. Like, "Oh, yeah. That action exists. Well, I guess it has finished its cooldown, so I might as well press it..." Especially on AOE pulls, where Spineshatter is relegated to the role of pointless filler.

So I would personally prefer something like:
Trait: Dive Mastery I

Level 50

Upgrades Spineshatter Dive to Dragonfire Dive.

Dragon Gauge / Life of the Dragon
This is the most drastic change that I'd advocate for: cleaning up the dated Life system. The boundaries on this for me are:
Try to preserve the current general gameplay feel of Dragoon.

Try to modernize the Dragon Gauge / Life system to feel more cleanly-presented and more elegant to design with.

Try to give the Dragon Gauge / Life system more space to grow in the future.

Try to remove some of the dated-feeling clunk / jank / awkwardness from Geirskogul / Nastrond.

Try to retain Dragoon's ability to somewhat-manipulate when it enters its burst window.

Here's an example of a change that might fit these criteria:
Dragon Scales / Wyrmwind Thrust
No changes are made to the function of Wyrmwind Thrust and Dragon Scales.
Dragon Gauge / High Jump / Mirage Dive
Dragon Gauge becomes a Quantity, rather than a timer, starting at "0" in new instances.

The Dragoon can have a maximum of 100 Dragon Gauge.

Dragon Gauge quantity has no duration and remains indefinitely.

Blood of the Dragon ("Lance Charge")
Blood of the Dragon (ie, "Lance Charge") generates 50 Dragon Gauge when activated.

Blood of the Dragon (ie, "Lance Charge") still has a 60 second cooldown.

High Jump / Mirage Dive
Jump / High Jump generates 25 Dragon Gauge when it strikes a target.

Mirage Dive becomes a Trait.
Mirage Dive triggers automatically after High Jump strikes a target.

The "Mirage" strike lands with an ~1 second delay, so that the visual effect isn't lost, and so that it keeps the sense of a Dragoon "afterimage" striking the target.

Mirage Dive generates 25 Dragon Gauge when it strikes a target.

Combined, generates 50 Dragon Gauge per High Jump.

Jump / High Jump still has a fixed 30 second cooldown. It still does not use "charges".

Geirskogul / Dragon Eyes
Geirskogul cooldown is set to 1.0 seconds.

Geirskogul requires and consumes 50 Dragon Gauge per use.

Geirskogul generates 1 Dragon Eye when it strikes a target.

The Dragoon can have a maximum of 2 Dragon Eyes.

Dragon Eyes have no duration and remain indefinitely.

Life of the Dragon / Nastrond / Dragon Fangs
Trait — Life of the Dragon: Generating a 2nd Dragon Eye automatically consumes both Eyes and generates 3 Dragon Fangs.

While the Dragoon has at least 1 Dragon Fang remaining, Geirskogul is changed to Nastrond.

Nastrond has a 1.0 second cooldown.

Nastrond does not require or consume Dragon Gauge.

Each use of Nastrond requires and consumes 1 Dragon Fang.

Both Dragon Gauge and Dragon Eyes can still be generated while the Dragoon has Dragon Fangs.

The Dragoon can only have a maximum of 3 Dragon Fangs. Triggering Life again with unspent Dragon Fangs will overwrite any unspent Fangs.

Other interactions with Life of the Dragon / Dragon Fangs
Dragonfire Dive
Cooldown remains 120 seconds.

Dragonfire Dive potency increases by 50% for each unspent Dragon Fang that the Dragoon has when Dragonfire Dive is activated, to a maximum of 150% increased potency.

Dragonfire Dive does not require or consume Dragon Fangs.

Stardiver
Stardiver cooldown is set to 1.0 seconds.

Stardiver activation requires at least 1 Dragon Fang.

Stardiver activation consumes all unspent Dragon Fangs.

Stardiver potency is static — it is not modified by the number of Fangs consumed.

Stardiver base potency is increased significantly, to compensate for it now replacing a Nastrond.

It might be hard to get an idea of the rotational flow from those text lists, so here's a mock-up graphic to roughly show how it would work (in a simplified case):

**Eorzean_username** · 05-14-2022 09:10 AM

Elaborating on some of those Life / Gauge ideas listed above

"In practice, this is basically just the same thing as always, so why..."
In addition to making Geirskogul more flexible about exactly when you use it, this would also open up more design space for the future than the current "Timer Life" system can do.

For example, a future trait could add an alternative Gauge consumer, or make Fifth Hits of the combo generate 5 Gauge, or cause Wyrmwind Thrust to generate 25 Gauge, or make Stardiver refund 1 Fang... etc, etc, etc.

The idea is to try to clean up and modernize the Dragoon gauge system, and not to try to significantly change the core gameplay loop .

"But with this system, Dragoon would feel pressured to skip odd-minute windows and try to hold full Gauge until the bigger 2-minute burst windows..."
Maybe... I think it's a legitimate concern.

But if this became an issue, or was deemed undesirable or unenjoyable gameplay, it could be adjusted for, and controlled.

For example: "A fresh set of Dragon Fangs lasts for 30 seconds. After 30 seconds, any unused Dragon Fangs are automatically lost."

I left this sort of limitation out of the initial sketch above, because it seemed like it would be more interesting to high-end Dragoons to have the potential to trigger Life right before a downtime phase, and then resume the encounter with 3 Fangs still stored and waiting when a boss returns.

In contrast, putting a timer on Fangs would feel a bit limited and odd compared to how most Gauges work, but it would also allow the currently-standard "30 second Life window" to be more firmly-reenforced.

"Why does Blood of the Dragon / Lance Charge generate 50 Gauge?"
That's to allow Dragoon to go into Life in the Opener. Most Jobs get to do their full rotation when they open a fight, and I think it's more fun that way.

I deliberately favored putting this gauge generation on the 60-second BOTD / Lance Charge, because that would force Geirskogul to be used at least once per minute outside burst windows — preserving that long-standing aspect of the Dragoon rotation, and allowing Geirskogul to still have a presence outside burst windows.

As well, gaining 150 Gauge per 60s, but only "needing" 100 Gauge, would add some depth / complexity to the decision-making about how to manage the Gauge's various resources when optimizing an encounter — something that seems to be enjoyable (or at least satisfying) for high-tier players.

That said, I can already see this potentially becoming Really Cursed™ as Dragoons ravenously attempt to attain a Reaper-esque Double Stardiver / "6 Fangs" in 2m windows while also not delaying High Jump, Dragonfire Dive, Wyrmwind Thrust, Dragon Sight, Battle Litany, or Life Surge, and probably Feint and True North somewhere in there most of the time, too.

If that ends up seeming irritating or stressful rather than fun — or legitimately "too busy" — just delete the Gauge generation from BOTD, which would reset Dragoon back to the longstanding "No Life" opener and familiar, static 60 second rhythm.

"But if Stardiver consumes all your Fangs, then Stardiver timing isn't as flexible anymore! Boo!"
Legitimate criticism. That is definitely a deviation from the longstanding Stardiver design, and potentially problematic due to Stardiver's long animation lock making it not always favorable to be "forced" to activate Stardiver at too specific of a time.

Personally, I feel like Stardiver is more interesting as a powerful finisher like Communio, so it would be "worth it".

But if you disagree, it could always be changed to just make Stardiver require (but not consume) at least 1 Dragon Fang, and to make entering Life grant "Stardiver Ready" for 30s. That would be a more authentic analogue to the current Dragoon system as of Patch 6.10. But that also felt a lot more boring to me, so I went with the alternative in the sketch above.

**Aco505** · 05-14-2022 08:54 PM