Healers need an overhaul

[tearagion]

Please, it's milquetoast not milk toast. I beg you.

[Shurrikhan]

Is that not the definition of intertwining DPS and healing gameplay--generating healing resources through attacking?

To me, no, because nothing about the latter effect scales or synergizes with that damage. You simply took something SGE already had and then gated it behind something else such that the new position provides no advantages over the old despite having a smaller banking margin.

For a similar reason I wouldn't say that Misery is generated by healing so much as simply by particular generators that, among other things, happen to allow for recouped healing costs. In dungeons, it's most often used between pulls, where the healing (like the damage of your above generator) is irrelevant to the additional effect.

You might as well say that AST gets its MP through card usage *(because of the appended 5% MP per Draw) or WHM through Water magic (Assize) as say that locking Addersgall behind (rather than it having scale or synergize with) an attack entwines damage and healing.

Now, if a portion of healing potency was then wrapped into WHM's next attack spell, sure, I'd call that entwinement. If AST's only way to regenerate additional mana was through self-casts of the Ewer card, yeah, I'd say they're entwined.

I myself would rather generate resources intentionally rather than have them given to me.

Fair. And I could agree with that. I just don't think this adds any meaningful degree of intent. You would already follow identical behavior (don't let your nuke attack overcap its charges) with or without gating Addersgall generation behind it.

In fact, you'd be even less able to use it situationally (much like holding for future burst Assize or --a more powerful-- Draw due to their MP generation). Since you're then giving yet more weight behind using it in the most normal and least fight-awareness-rewarding way, I'd possibly go so far as to say it's reducing the space for intention in that ability. You've reduced the space for alternatives, after all.

One thing I'll note is I reworked Dyskrasia into a different AoE filler spell that doubles as a mobility tool at increased MP cost. This is something I'd do for every healer, and it reflects in the build ideas--adding functionality to AoE buttons in single target.

Oh, nice. Okay, that reduces the would-be costs quite a bit then.

If you are genuinely curious to see the entire thing, there's a link to it under the spoilers tag over here in this thread along with reworks to the other healers as well.

Alrighty. Will check it out.

[Recon1o6]

here's something galling: paladin is getting a rework before healers. despite the fact healers need it more (1 job vs an entire role)

[Allegor]

here's something galling: paladin is getting a rework before healers. despite the fact healers need it more (1 job vs an entire role)

Mostly so they fit into the 2min buff window like everybody else, but since "healers only heal" they don't need a 2min buff window and are perfectly fine as is... I'd like to say I'm being sarcastic, but there are people out there who may unironically think like this, so idk lol

[Raven2014]

here's something galling: paladin is getting a rework before healers. despite the fact healers need it more (1 job vs an entire role)

Explain why healers need it more? Like ... ok, I'm not saying healers doesn't need a rework. I will even say it would be nice if healers get a major rework ... but common now, it's fairly obvious why they need to rework PLD. It's pretty much a forgotten orphan that were left behind. Its output sucks, this tier bleed damage model just rip PLD to shred. Its support kit is badly out of date, too situational, and overall clunky. As a healer main, if I have a choice I would prefer not to heal a PLD. Up until now, PLD has always been my go to tank, and now I hate it. Frankly they should rework and get rid of this idea "PLD is a tank that can save/recover a run" because face it, when people argue about class balance nobody care about "saving a run" unless it's a RDM.

Basically, PLD have an existential crisis. People will avoid to bring a PLD if they can. In fact, if you're part of the early clear crowd then it's not even a choice. And it's obvious they want to square that issue away before the next content circle so PLD main don't get excluded. That's the correct priority.

Healers may think they're desperate due to this "woe is me, and only my trouble is the most important and gravest!" mindset but ... at the end of the day, every group gonna bring 2 healers.

[Deceptus]

Basically, PLD have an existential crisis. People will avoid to bring a PLD if they can. In fact, if you're part of the early clear crowd then it's not even a choice. And it's obvious they want to square that issue away before the next content circle so PLD main don't get excluded. That's the correct priority.

The entire Healing Role has been in an existential crisis for four years now, two expansions.

Healers may think they're desperate due to this "woe is me, and only my trouble is the most important and gravest!" mindset but ... at the end of the day, every group gonna bring 2 healers.

You say people are actively not playing Paladins? LOL. People legitimately aren't bringing healers to runs at all. Single healer EX is relatively common.

WHM was actively avoided for multiple expansions.

But like we said in our Double Standard post on the healing forums, Hydaelyn forbid a tank have an issue, because then it gets fixed really quick (With the exception of the Bastard Child Dark Knight and Living Dead).

[Gemina]

The entire Healing Role has been in an existential crisis for four years now, two expansions.

"Existential crisis"? SMH man.

Look, I can understand that for many healers, it is currently in a state that makes it difficult to enjoy. But when terms like this is just thrown out there, it becomes very easy to see that the problem is not just with healer design. It's also with the healers themselves.

I can't and won't try to speak for things on a savage level. I can only speak as a player who has used all four healers up to Barb EX, and what they are going through isn't an existential crisis. On the contrary, they have plenty to do, and there are numerous ways for them to deploy their kits to handle the situations within these duties. Each of them also have varied ways to handle a situation that give them slight edges over the other healers and feeling of uniqueness.

I will repeat that this does not mean that there are not issues with healing. There definitely are. Lack of offensive skills if probably the furthest on the list of these to the devs though. Trust me, I know because of my hotbar setup for each healer has at the bare minimum five offensive skills. Some skills such a Pneuma, Assize, and Macrocosmos, I feel are well designed because of their duality, which gives them both optimal and suboptimal applications of these skills that change depending on a ST vs AoE scenario. Even a skill like SGE's Phelgma can have you reserve or spend charges depending on what's going on. So it's not like these thought processes while healing don't exist. Players just say they don't, which is a blatant lie.

As usual, I default to if you want more DPS options, play a DPS job.

[IDontPetLalas]

[QUOTE=Gemina;6136381]"Existential crisis"? SMH man.

You seem to contradict yourself, On one hand you recognize that there are already skills that integrate healing and DPS.
On one hand you acknowledge that there are issues with healing design, then you seem to indicate that actually it's fairly well designed, then you go back to- well no there are issues.

The final touch which seems to indicate that you aren't arguing in good faith however is that tired old cliché of "if you want more DPS options, play a DPS job". At that point, anyone who adds that is just trolling, we're gone through this so many times at this point.

[Deceptus]

"Existential crisis"? SMH man.

Look, I can understand that for many healers, it is currently in a state that makes it difficult to enjoy. But when terms like this is just thrown out there, it becomes very easy to see that the problem is not just with healer design. It's also with the healers themselves.

I can't and won't try to speak for things on a savage level. I can only speak as a player who has used all four healers up to Barb EX, and what they are going through isn't an existential crisis.

It becomes an existential crisis for the role when decent / good players actively aren't bringing healers to fights.

The first two EXs of Endwalker were done without healers at all when they were current, and single healing EX content is common.

Savage has been completed without healers.
Ultimates were completed without healers.

No other role is that disposable. So yes, it literally is an existential crisis for the entire role.

As usual, I default to if you want more DPS options, play a DPS job.

Great, lets have Tanks dumbed down to a single main Aggro generating skill, a 30 second DoT, a single AoE, and 10 mitigations or so that they don't really need. Can't have tanks be complex, tank anxiety is real.

Oh wait, the tanks would riot.

"If you want DPS options, then Play a DPS" is not a reasonable critique or response because it's not applied evenly or fairly across the roles. There is a blatant double standard and has been for years.

[HyperiusUltima]

Basically, PLD have an existential crisis. People will avoid to bring a PLD if they can. In fact, if you're part of the early clear crowd then it's not even a choice. And it's obvious they want to square that issue away before the next content circle so PLD main don't get excluded. That's the correct priority.

Healers may think they're desperate due to this "woe is me, and only my trouble is the most important and gravest!" mindset but ... at the end of the day, every group gonna bring 2 healers.

Yeah sure, let's talk about PLD and how they don't fit into the 2m Burst Window that actually destroyed balance in this game. Typically they're doing this fix because PLD was a massive outlier in terms of clears done mainly because of the following:

1) Boss HP was WAY too high, even for Week 1 World First Groups. They had to rely on Crit Variance to clear the fight, even using perfect play and uptime strategies.

2) PLD was an outlier because of the fact in Phase 2 you get a major buff; PLD can't fit their entire burst into the window of other jobs because it's 11 GCDs long. This means some of PLD's damage is left out compared to other jobs who can fit all their potential damage inside of burst phases.

All the other tanks can fit their damage into the burst window. PLD can't. What do you think the emergency buffs were for to their Confiteor combo?

As for Healers, they're in a far worse position in PLD if you look at their kit. If you played Healer and took a minute to figure out what each and every single thing in the role's kits does, you'd see that it's about 90% Healing for nearly all Healers. Their two damage buttons are just a DoT and a generic attack spell. They've been desperate for something new for the role for years.

One last thing before I go, too: Don't act like Healers share that same mindset and generalize it.