Healers need an overhaul

[tearagion]

Like everytime I see people mentioned it: trim down the healing bloat on healer, give it a simple DPS rotation ... I had this picture of a SMN light in my head.

Is it really that hard for you to imagine Heavensward? Did you hit your head at some point?

[Raven2014]

Is it really that hard for you to imagine Heavensward? Did you hit your head at some point?

Why do I need to imagine it when I actually played it? In fact, I remember it well enough to say I don't want to see it again. One of the question I used to wonder is "is SE dev obssessed with DoT?". Like back then, almost every classes (save 2?) have a DoT, some has 2 and I was always wonder like ... why? Maintaining 2 DoT isn't my ideal of fun, not on any class, and especially not healer.


And are you people capable of doing discussion without dissing out slight and insult every other response? No wonder why this thread became a massive echo chamber for the most part.

As for Healers, they're in a far worse position in PLD if you look at their kit. If you played Healer and took a minute to figure out what each and every single thing in the role's kits does, you'd see that it's about 90% Healing for nearly all Healers. Their two damage buttons are just a DoT and a generic attack spell. They've been desperate for something new for the role for years.

One last thing before I go, too: Don't act like Healers share that same mindset and generalize it.

Here is what you don't realize: just because you consider that as a problem, doesn't mean I do. And even if two people agree on a problem, doesn't mean they will have the same solution in mind.

The healer kit is powerful, yes, too powerful in fact. But what I want to see is fight that push the limit of that healing kit, not to become a green DPS.

If you are so big-brained to pull out logs and understand them, and fail to understand how a comment is being hyperbolic and merely symbollic of JUST HOW BLOODY BLAND AND POORLY DESIGNED HEALERS ARE, then you all have a problem.

As a healer main since 2.0, especially a WHM main at that up until this expansion, I looked at the post in the last 3-4 pages and just shake my head because for the most part, they're all hyperbolic.

Hyperbolic is justified if it's used sparingly. But when people hyperbolic EVERY SINGLE argument they make then you gonna get called out for being over-dramatic, and deservedly so. You know why something is called "symbolic"? When everything is symbolic then nothing is symbolic anymore.

[Conchoidal]

The healer kit is powerful, yes, too powerful in fact. But what I want to see is fight that push the limit of that healing kit, not to become a green DPS.

SE has stated that they have no intention of increasing healing requirements to that level (and based on the "healer shortage" in the most recent tier will continue to be discouraged from doing so), so it's unlikely they'll ever make that type of content. How do you feel about healers having more dps tools for solo content (e.g. solo instances in MSQ and job/role quests)?

[Ivtrix]

SE has stated that they have no intention of increasing healing requirements to that level (and based on the "healer shortage" in the most recent tier will continue to be discouraged from doing so), so it's unlikely they'll ever make that type of content. How do you feel about healers having more dps tools for solo content (e.g. solo instances in MSQ and job/role quests)?

Hard agree, raising healer requirement floor will only exasperate the issue and you will see less healers and not more. Healing needs to be accessible from a design perspective and that’s why we’ve seen issues this raid tier especially p8s. When the going gets tough, it seems like more people pack up and get going then dig deep.

The desire anyways is for healing to be engaging, not difficult.

I think that both the healing and damage should compliment each other. Proc based incentives like freecure (except don’t fish for freecure it’s terrible), but if cure 2 gave a chance to something like make your next dot, or next couple Clare’s stronger, and vice versa if you casted a couple glares in a row, it would boost the power of your next GCD heal by a stacking amount.

Damage and healing should compliment each other, it will incentivize good habits and potentially change the way you may approach specific mechanics in encounters.

[AnotherPerson]

Why do I need to imagine it when I actually played it? In fact, I remember it well enough to say I don't want to see it again. One of the question I used to wonder is "is SE dev obssessed with DoT?". Like back then, almost every classes (save 2?) have a DoT, some has 2 and I was always wonder like ... why? Maintaining 2 DoT isn't my ideal of fun, not on any class, and especially not healer.


And are you people capable of doing discussion without dissing out slight and insult every other response? No wonder why this thread became a massive echo chamber for the most part.




Here is what you don't realize: just because you consider that as a problem, doesn't mean I do. And even if two people agree on a problem, doesn't mean they will have the same solution in mind.

The healer kit is powerful, yes, too powerful in fact. But what I want to see is fight that push the limit of that healing kit, not to become a green DPS.

Unfortunately, that will never be a viable solution because SE wants ilvl sync to be as high as it is for accessibility. Healer toolkits are tuned for the Min ILVL, which is where the healing is most intensive. Even so, people doing normal mode content with above average ilvl can still struggle with basic healing because people's average skill levels can be vastly different. Titania for example, is where I met most healers struggle because they simply can't heal a bad tank. They would sometimes fail without 2-3 Echo buffs. Meanwhile another healer won't have to GCD heal at all without echo because they are good at using healing abilities efficiently. At most, they use 2-3 GCD heals and go back to 2-1-1-1-1-1-1-1 attack spam. This vast gap in player skill level can't handle such a drastic increase in damage in normal mode content if ilvl is balanced to keep healing difficult. The same problem applies to Savage to a lesser degree (because people in savage are required to play well, but it's still there).

Fights that are fairly difficult and requires more healing eventually get so much leeway due to party's gear ilvls increasing (for healer stats, party's HP, def stats, & party healing buff effects) to the point that downtime will always inevitably come back. This is just the nature of ilvls and making content readily accessible for everyone to clear.

If casual healers cannot handle the skill floor (which is just healing well), then having having increased damage will never be a possible option to the solution of removing healer downtime. The only effective solution would be to make healer downtime more fun through other means. The most cost-effective / least impactful way to go about this (without changing all the old content's encounter design) will be adding DPS skills because DPS skills is a last-priority focus for healers. After ensuring no one needs more healing, they can focus on their secondary role - which currently is DPS (Skill ceiling).

And this was discussed many many MANY pages ago in both this thread and in the "If you want more engaging content, go play ultimate" thread". This is the only logical conclusion healers can make for engagement while making this role accessible. Everyone who tried arguing against healer getting more DPS skills kept on trying to deny it, which is what led to this "echo chamber", because at this point, SE has been quite literally showing that every other option isn't working and hasn't been working for years now. Otherwise, there wouldn't be people asking about why the healer role is so empty right now in the interview.

[Raven2014]

Spamming Cure. Hundreds of times. Over and over. Is. Not. Fun.

Thanks for providing an example of hyperbolic and overdramatic. I rest my case as nothing else needed to be said.

lmao you people are unreal. "actually I do remember, and am capable of conceptualizing, when healers had marginally involved damage toolkits, and I don't want to go back I would rather healers stay braindead" incredible

If the 3.0 version is your "idea" of a good healer DPS model, I want none of it.

If you want to argue healer back then was more fun, then yes. But it was more fun because back then you have to manage your aggro, you have to manage your MP, you have to hard-shield not because someone gonna die, but to actually solve mechanic, you actually have to heal because the oGCD kit was fairly limited. It was FUN because it kept healer busy doing healer things, not because I had to maintain 2 DoTs.

And this was discussed many many MANY pages ago in both this thread and in the "If you want more engaging content, go play ultimate" thread". This is the only logical conclusion healers can make for engagement while making this role accessible. Everyone who tried arguing against healer getting more DPS skills kept on trying to deny it, which is what led to this "echo chamber", because at this point, SE has been quite literally showing that every other option isn't working and hasn't been working for years now. Otherwise, there wouldn't be people asking about why the healer role is so empty right now in the interview.

You're the first one who said it and probably won't be the last, so I'll response the same way I always did. That's not my problem.

As far as I can see SE is neither listening or doing whatever side wanted, and until they reach a decision, I will continue to advocate for my preferred solution to the problem. I don't get why people from the other of the arguments keep bringing up this and that and how I should just gave up and shut up because "SE not gonna do what you want anyway".

Well, have they done what you want?

As far as I see they haven't. Hell, if anything the trend seems to be the moving away the exactly the opposite direction of what you and yours are asking. But I don't see people see that as a reason for them to stop talking, so why should I?

[Deceptus]

Thanks for providing an example of hyperbolic and overdramatic. I rest my case as nothing else needed to be said.



If the 3.0 version is your "idea" of a good healer DPS model, I want none of it.

If you want to argue healer back then was more fun, then yes. But it was more fun because back then you have to manage your aggro, you have to manage your MP, you have to hard-shield not because someone gonna die, but to actually solve mechanic, you actually have to heal because the oGCD kit was fairly limited. It was FUN because it kept healer busy doing healer things, not because I had to maintain 2 DoTs.




You're the first one who said it and probably won't be the last, so I'll response the same way I always did. That's not my problem.

As far as I can see SE is neither listening or doing whatever side wanted, and until they reach a decision, I will continue to advocate for my preferred solution to the problem. I don't get why people from the other of the arguments keep bringing up this and that and how I should just gave up and shut up because "SE not gonna do what you want anyway".

Well, have they done what you want?

As far as I see they haven't. Hell, if anything the trend seems to be the moving away the exactly the opposite direction of what you and yours are asking. But I don't see people see that as a reason for them to stop talking, so why should I?

Point still stands and is never addressed:

What are healers supposed to do when there's no healing required? Why is their downtime engagement not given the same weight as the other two roles?

[Raven2014]

None of those things have particularly changed outside of simply relative healing requirements.

We did not manage aggro outside of very rarely holding Sacred Shroud for until after a Cure III.

That's not true. Unless you have tanks who willingly to keep the stance up all the times. Maybe I was unlucky but I did not see those tanks a lot back then, both PF and static.

Also, are we just gonna repeat the same argument circle we had a month ago? I'll just give you a short summary of what I said back then:

- Did I say the system in 2.0 - 3.0 was perfect? No.
- What I said was elements back then should be enhanced, refined, and expanse.

I don't know why people saying stuffs like "oh as long as your tank is good, your ninja know his thing, your BRD/MCH take care of MP .etc." then it's not difference for healer as if they're something taken for granted.

First: they're not taken for granted.
Second: even when you succeed in doing that, it still means there are layer of consideration and coordination to ensure a smooth run. Things that are now completely absent.

Like I said a month ago, if you keep stripping raw element away because "it's janky, not working too well" instead of refining and improving them than you eventually end up with a skeleton. Hence, I present you today's healer.

Point still stands and is never addressed:

What are healers supposed to do when there's no healing required? Why is their downtime engagement not given the same weight as the other two roles?

Why you asking me to address that? Do I look like someone who worked for SE? I feel like this is something people try to argue with me always conveniently overlook: I never said the current healer is fine, but like ... you guys always seem to make out that what's I'm saying.

I never argue the point healer need more active engagement, the only thing I'm argue is "more DPS button" is not the solution to that, and I think that offend a lot of people. All I know is currently healers have a problem, but I'm not gonna try and pretend I know exactly what SE's vision/direction with the role.

[flowerfairy]

Also, are we just gonna repeat the same argument circle we had a month ago? I'll just give you a short summary of what I said back then:

- Did I say the system in 2.0 - 3.0 was perfect? No.
- What I said was elements back then should be enhanced, refined, and expanse.

Sorry for misinterpreting, but it's a little confusing to imagine exactly what do you want for this game, because earlier you said

The healer kit is powerful, yes, too powerful in fact. But what I want to see is fight that push the limit of that healing kit, not to become a green DPS.

I find present healer's kit and past healer's kits to be vastly different from each other. And to me, it ultimately comes to a matter of "quality over quantity". I don't care for healer kits today because we have crap like Cure II, Tetra, and Afflatus Solace which all do the same exact thing. As well as Medica, Cure III, Plenary, Lilybell which also all do the same exact thing. I don't care if a fight is designed where I'm forced to constantly use these on cooldowns and spam GCD heals because that's not engaging or fun, it's Glarespam on the opposite spectrum. There is barely any interaction going in the kits, and the newer heals from ShB and EW do not add anything that I feel like is needed to heal because I already had stuff to heal the party. It's just heal, strong heal, stronger heal.

These elements are extremely different than when we were much more reliant on our GCD heals since oGCD heals were scarce and sparce. I consider today's kits to be faaar from expanding and enhancing past iterations. So what exactly do you want to see in the future for healers?

Pretty sure I said this in another thread, but I want damage tools because the powerful, redundant heals are not interesting. Cutting those out will make us more reliant on the GCD heals, which I consider to be more engaging. There, we would be constantly being questioned, "Should I do damage or should I heal? Which would support my party the most?", and this is what I think makes an engaging support kit in any genre of games.

[HyperiusUltima]

I never argue the point healer need more active engagement, the only thing I'm argue is "more DPS button" is not the solution to that, and I think that offend a lot of people. All I know is currently healers have a problem, but I'm not gonna try and pretend I know exactly what SE's vision/direction with the role.

So tell me your alternative. If it’s not the mind-numbing spam of GlareDosisMaleficBroil, then what is it? Because we’ve been through this old, old argument numerous times. What the bloody hell makes healers so grating that they aren’t playing the role and it’s bleeding player usage? There are two philosophies that each side has in the matter.

SE’s side: “We need to make sure that the casual player base can play healer, so we double downed on our reset in Shadowbringers to keep them nice and simple. At the Savage level, we’ve tried to make healing more difficult this tier with more damage, so the answer is more incremental damage adjustments in fight design.”

Healer Playerbase’s side: “Our job has been outrageously ignored and insulted via the “Go Play Ultimate” remark by the developers after we have provided multiple pages of feedback in our sub-forum and now in General Discussion. The problem with the job is that it is not fun rotationally, since you are spamming one button and sometimes hitting two with bells and whistles attached. The way the game is designed for the healing aspect is very scripted to the point that it’s like any other mechanical song and dance. The fact that we have a double standard compared to all other roles in terms of rotation is unacceptable. To draw people back, we need to focus on the core problem: Healer Downtime. What do healers do when there’s nothing to heal?”

These two come into conflict when they discuss healer downtime, as the developers are afraid that by making systems too complex, they’ll have a repeat of Heavensward and Stormblood, when that is not the case currently. The issues that were present in those two expansions have been removed at Shadowbringers with the big reset. Now they need to build upon their current systems once more after throwing the baby out with the bath water; but where jobs such as Tanks and DPS have had gains, Healers have bad losses due to this reset.

So much complexity Healers had was stripped out and has yet to be filled. What do you think we get when you have a job that has 0 complexity and very little engagement in gameplay?