Samurai changes are unacceptable in the current iteration

[xAFROx]

I don't know what it said, but I sip real wine I can actually trace and judge, and think it should be no where near such a filthy mouth as Vencio's.
Samurai got gimped, the devs asked for feedback they failed to aknowledge. Our ire is legitimate.

Amazing how so many people feel the need to keep commenting if they've already set a dude to ignore.

He's responding like a normal person for once. Someone decided to ask him 'why' and he's responded without the usual inflammatory pieces. Honestly, if he's set to ignore for you, just leave it at that.

Less clutter that way when going through the thread.

[Deithwen]

Amazing how so many people feel the need to keep commenting if they've already set a dude to ignore.

He's responding like a normal person for once. Someone decided to ask him 'why' and he's responded without the usual inflammatory pieces. Honestly, if he's set to ignore for you, just leave it at that.

Less clutter that way when going through the thread.

Amazing indeed how some people need to take part in it, while being absolutely devoided of any relvevant input.
I must applaud you sir for making the most worthless statement I have ever seen since Venicio. (was it Venicio ? I guess one can fit the C word in it quite easily.)

[Axxion]

Amazing how so many people feel the need to keep commenting if they've already set a dude to ignore.

He's responding like a normal person for once. Someone decided to ask him 'why' and he's responded without the usual inflammatory pieces. Honestly, if he's set to ignore for you, just leave it at that.

Less clutter that way when going through the thread.

I asked this question on this forum which you commented on https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...-for-6.2/page3

[xAFROx]

Amazing indeed how some people need to take part in it, while being absolutely devoided of any relvevant input.
I must applaud you sir for making the most worthless statement I have ever seen since Venicio. (was it Venicio ? I guess one can fit the C word in it quite easily.)

Excuse you? I've made plenty of relevant inputs in each of these threads. I've stated reasons why the changes are bad, reasons I can see they're 'fine' and offered points of potential improvement through cleaning up the hotbar back when the only real excuse we had was 'button bloat'. I've even been advocating for a return of more than just kaiten and suggesting meditation gets improved if they intend to keep kenki this neutered.

So excuse you if I make a comment showing how tired I am of seeing entire pages of comments of people just angrily responding to things they can't even see anymore. Like, wtf?

[Lyth]

I think it's bizarre to decide on whether you 'agree' or 'disagree' with a viewpoint based on scrutinizing which 'side' you think someone belongs to. Sometimes there really isn't a 'side'. If the take that you're reading aligns with your own feelings on the subject, then you agree. If you don't you don't. It shouldn't matter who is saying it. This subforum has become so toxic to post in because of how faction conscious participants are, and there's no actual discussion taking place as a result. These two pages are largely meaningless angry shouting, and I can't even tell what the topic being discussed is anymore now that it's been completely derailed.

On the subject of 'complexity', I think it's much more useful to discuss 'fun'. I personally hated the change in DRK's gameplay between Heavensward and Stormblood because the removal of Darkside's MP drain resulted in spam usage of DA, which just felt repetitive. You could make the case that a similar issue has happened here around Kaiten. Or not. You tell me. It's about articulating the 'why' of a problem more than it is demanding a specific solution. Who knows, there might be an answer here that results in an even better version of SAM's gameplay than we've ever seen.

[Ruminous]

On the subject of 'complexity', I think it's much more useful to discuss 'fun'. I personally hated the change in DRK's gameplay between Heavensward and Stormblood because the removal of Darkside's MP drain resulted in spam usage of DA, which just felt repetitive. You could make the case that a similar issue has happened here around Kaiten. Or not. You tell me. It's about articulating the 'why' of a problem more than it is demanding a specific solution. Who knows, there might be an answer here that results in an even better version of SAM's gameplay than we've ever seen.

Complexity and fun can go hand in hand. A balance between the two means people stay more interested in something. Too complex, you turn people off, even if the job is fun. If the job is fun but braindead simple, eventually the fun will die out from the lack of being challenged. If people didn't appreciate challenge, everything would be simple. Why design complex bosses that challenge players? I think both should be discussed, not just one or the other. Nothing in the game should require you to think too hard or do finger ballet to play "optimally", nor should it be as easy as rolling face on keyboard or hitting it with your fists. I will agree with you on Stormblood's drk. I didn't play that as a side job because I hated hitting Dark Arts often. Samurai was sort of becoming that and an easier fix would've been to change the interaction between kaiten and ogi namikiri, and possibly higanbana. Make kaiten more leaning towards a true finisher rather than every iaijutsu.

In either case, I do think they want to do something different for samurai. But they're wanting to stack it behind new levels rather than actually rework the job right now. I don't think a rework is "bad" in the sense that we could get something awesome. Or get something like summoner, but that's a whole 'nother thing. Anyway, ripping the machine apart now and piecing it back together and saying it runs better now just wasn't the way they should've approached this. Being able to explain the reasoning, and what they could do to give samurai's something other than the shinten gauge would've gone a long way in lessening the vitriol. But also, if they wanted to do something with samurai, a x.1 patch right before the next ultimate is one of the worst times to do it too. See how they're now waiting for 7.0 to "fix" drg and ast? Yeah, I would've waited for then too.

[Theodric_Thorne]

Complexity and fun can go hand in hand. A balance between the two means people stay more interested in something. Too complex, you turn people off, even if the job is fun. If the job is fun but braindead simple, eventually the fun will die out from the lack of being challenged. If people didn't appreciate challenge, everything would be simple. Why design complex bosses that challenge players? I think both should be discussed, not just one or the other. Nothing in the game should require you to think too hard or do finger ballet to play "optimally", nor should it be as easy as rolling face on keyboard or hitting it with your fists. I will agree with you on Stormblood's drk. I didn't play that as a side job because I hated hitting Dark Arts often. Samurai was sort of becoming that and an easier fix would've been to change the interaction between kaiten and ogi namikiri, and possibly higanbana. Make kaiten more leaning towards a true finisher rather than every iaijutsu.

In either case, I do think they want to do something different for samurai. But they're wanting to stack it behind new levels rather than actually rework the job right now. I don't think a rework is "bad" in the sense that we could get something awesome. Or get something like summoner, but that's a whole 'nother thing. Anyway, ripping the machine apart now and piecing it back together and saying it runs better now just wasn't the way they should've approached this. Being able to explain the reasoning, and what they could do to give samurai's something other than the shinten gauge would've gone a long way in lessening the vitriol. But also, if they wanted to do something with samurai, a x.1 patch right before the next ultimate is one of the worst times to do it too. See how they're now waiting for 7.0 to "fix" drg and ast? Yeah, I would've waited for then too.

It's just so frustrating that they won't revert the change. DRG gets a QoL change reverted due to "player feedback" but none of the DRG players I know are happy about it. Meanwhile hundreds of pages of genuine player feedback on this topic are flatly ignored.

I honestly can't remember the last time I unsubbed from this game. Maybe for a month or two during a lull in Shadowbringers? I'm not even positive I took a break during ShB at all. I know I definitely took long breaks during ARR and HW but that's because SAM didn't exist then. I have been consistently playing ever since Stormblood because of the addition of SAM. It's just not fun anymore. When the Heavensward changes initially dropped I thought I'd keep playing SAM forever, because they took the kit we had from ShB and made it even more bonkers.

Why did you have to fix something that wasn't broken, SE? This is the type of thing Blizzard does all the time. Believe it or not, you guys are just as capable of destroying your reputation as they were. FFXIV is not and never will be "too big to fail" and you need to wake up and realize this.

[Ruminous]

It's just so frustrating that they won't revert the change. DRG gets a QoL change reverted due to "player feedback" but none of the DRG players I know are happy about it. Meanwhile hundreds of pages of genuine player feedback on this topic are flatly ignored.

Heh. Button bloat, amirite?

[Reese_Clairdale]

If I was going to compare SAM gameplay directly with DRK I would compare Kaiten and TBN specifically. Kaiten requires you to not be empty on Kenki at the right moments in order for you to optimize your role as a DPS. TBN requires you to not be empty on MP at the right moments to optimize your role as a Tank. Both aspects are very easy to manage and maybe not the most exciting thing, but it's still something. Now imagine if they suddenly turned TBN in to a passive trait that just gives a flat 5% defensive boost all of the time. Still very useful, but a small reduction in complexity causes a massive reduction in fun. The effect still partially exists, but the essence is gone and is replaced with nothing.

Multiple people including myself have given our thoughts on the direction we would have liked to see SAM go, mainly in the threads that we started and are listed in the compilation thread. I think most, if not all of them assume 6.08 SAM as a starting point though.

[CelestiCer]

If I was going to compare SAM gameplay directly with DRK I would compare Kaiten and TBN specifically. Kaiten requires you to not be empty on Kenki at the right moments in order for you to optimize your role as a DPS. TBN requires you to not be empty on MP at the right moments to optimize your role as a Tank. Both aspects are very easy to manage and maybe not the most exciting thing, but it's still something. Now imagine if they suddenly turned TBN in to a passive trait that just gives a flat 5% defensive boost all of the time. Still very useful, but a small reduction in complexity causes a massive reduction in fun. The effect still partially exists, but the essence is gone and is replaced with nothing.

Multiple people including myself have given our thoughts on the direction we would have liked to see SAM go, mainly in the threads that we started and are listed in the compilation thread. I think most, if not all of them assume 6.08 SAM as a starting point though.

Pretty much. 6.2 is not it, well not for the job changes as far as I am concerned