the normal content is too easy

[RocciaSolida]

Why do you want the normal content to be harder? Just yesterday I did a Vanaspati (level 85 dungeon) run in roulette and got matched with a RPR that didn't use Enshroud once, it took us around 35 minutes to clear.
People give zero F's about doing even the bare minimum, imagine what would happen if the content was harder.
I'm all for making the normal content as braindead as possible.

[UkcsAlias]

Why do you want the normal content to be harder? Just yesterday I did a Vanaspati (level 85 dungeon) run in roulette and got matched with a RPR that didn't use Enshroud once, it took us around 35 minutes to clear.
People give zero F's about doing even the bare minimum, imagine what would happen if the content was harder.
I'm all for making the normal content as braindead as possible.

There are several reasons why that reaper didnt use that ability. And a very simple one is: he never had to before that. Which is a result generaly caused by things being too easy.

And in most cases its not the 80+ dungeons that suffer much here, its everything before that. Ancient content is simply just too easy compared to the newer content. And in most cases this is simply caused by having a far too high ilvl for the intended difficulty.

[Volgia]

There are several reasons why that reaper didnt use that ability. And a very simple one is: he never had to before that. Which is a result generaly caused by things being too easy.

And in most cases its not the 80+ dungeons that suffer much here, its everything before that. Ancient content is simply just too easy compared to the newer content. And in most cases this is simply caused by having a far too high ilvl for the intended difficulty.

I think what could have happened there was that they didn't clear the job quest and they didn't have the ability unlocked, but they were just overleveled and it put them in Vanaspati.

[Stanazolol]

Why do you want the normal content to be harder? Just yesterday I did a Vanaspati (level 85 dungeon) run in roulette and got matched with a RPR that didn't use Enshroud once, it took us around 35 minutes to clear.
People give zero F's about doing even the bare minimum, imagine what would happen if the content was harder.
I'm all for making the normal content as braindead as possible.

I don't want all content to be harder, I just want a tier above brainded and lower than savage. Savage is a time sink and you really kinda need to find a group of people to play with. I want some content-a considerable amount, not just one or two dungeons- that I can run with pugs that you can't afk clear. Normal content can be cleared with ridiculousness, like the healer doing 0% damage and one of the dps 7%. One person can carry the whole group and often does. I want some content where players have to carry their own weight. I would like better rewards for such content also, but I know that you have to be careful with that, because if braindeads complain too much they'll wind up giving the same rewards to braindead content also.

[Nagandrea]

I don't want all content to be harder, I just want a tier above brainded and lower than savage. Savage is a time sink and you really kinda need to find a group of people to play with. I want some content-a considerable amount, not just one or two dungeons- that I can run with pugs that you can't afk clear. Normal content can be cleared with ridiculousness, like the healer doing 0% damage and one of the dps 7%. One person can carry the whole group and often does. I want some content where players have to carry their own weight. I would like better rewards for such content also, but I know that you have to be careful with that, because if braindeads complain too much they'll wind up giving the same rewards to braindead content also.

Why are you just talking about Extreme content? And the new criterion dungeons (that will get more support if popular)? Am I missing something, just skipped to final page.

[HyoMinPark]

Why do you want the normal content to be harder? Just yesterday I did a Vanaspati (level 85 dungeon) run in roulette and got matched with a RPR that didn't use Enshroud once, it took us around 35 minutes to clear.

Probably because there’s honestly no reason to. I don’t condone people not learning their jobs, but nothing in the normal course of this game requires that. You can clear things by simply auto-attacking your way through, or spamming the first ability of your combo.

If the game actually required the use of one’s brain, perhaps there would be less of these types of players.

People give zero F's about doing even the bare minimum, imagine what would happen if the content was harder.

They would no longer be able to skirt by on the coattails of others. I fail to see the issue with that.

I'm all for making the normal content as braindead as possible.

I’m not. I prefer to be engaged when I’m doing content. One of the main reasons I avoid Alliance Roulette is because of how common the CT raids are in it, and all three are basically resident sleepers.

[Payadopa]

Why do you want the normal content to be harder? Just yesterday I did a Vanaspati (level 85 dungeon) run in roulette and got matched with a RPR that didn't use Enshroud once, it took us around 35 minutes to clear.
People give zero F's about doing even the bare minimum, imagine what would happen if the content was harder.
I'm all for making the normal content as braindead as possible.

If you lower the bar people will try to get away with it. Or it's simple ignorance. Just because it does happen doesn't mean you should cater to it exclusively.

[Packetdancer]

For all we sometimes seem to want to claim job design getting more streamlined and dungeon design turning linear is the result of the devs trying to make the game easier, I don't think that's true... or at least, it's not the only factor.

As I've pointed out before, how often does anyone take alternate paths in any ARR dungeon that has side areas? How often does anyone bother with the puzzles in Qarn? Even in 1.x, there were people who posted the "optimal" path through Toto-Rak to hit all three diremites. We've demonstrated that no matter what they give us as a dungeon, we will optimize it down to the shortest path possible to get rewards, and then run that path as fast as we can, pulling everything until the dungeon forces us to stop.

And that is not on the "casuals", that is on those of us who do higher-end content. Most "casual" players I encounter would be happy to do the puzzles in Qarn or wander into side hallways, because they're not the ones trying to speed-run the dungeons. You want the devs to cater to us? They did; I would lay solid odds that's a big part of why more recent dungeons are now pre-optimized into linear hallways for us.

Similarly, look at AST. We like to complain that the card system is bland now... but if you go back on these very forums to Stormblood era threads, you can see people complaining how only the Balance is worth playing, and discussing how to optimize with that in mind. If you want a reason the devs made all the cards variations on the Balance, I think that's the smoking gun... and again, that wasn't "casuals" that caused that; folks who play more casually probably didn't care about optimizing the cards.

You can argue that the normal content is too streamlined and easy, but I don't think you can lay the blame for that solely at the feet of "casual" players; regardless of what we claim we want, the optimization habits of the more "serious" players bear some share of the blame.

Making the dungeons more solo friendly with Trusts may make the MSQ more approachable, but it also means the "casual" players are free to engage with the content in a more relaxed manner; they can wander into the side passages in ARR dungeons, they can stop and read the horrifying notes in Toto-Rak, or the hilarious books in Gubal, or the research notes in Ktisis Hyperborea.

Which, let's be honest, many people are seemingly impatient with... and the impatient folks are not usually from the "casual" side of the playerbase.

[vetch]

As I've pointed out before, how often does anyone take alternate paths in any ARR dungeon that has side areas? How often does anyone bother with the puzzles in Qarn? Even in 1.x, there were people who posted the "optimal" path through Toto-Rak to hit all three diremites. We've demonstrated that no matter what they give us as a dungeon, we will optimize it down to the shortest path possible to get rewards, and then run that path as fast as we can, pulling everything until the dungeon forces us to stop.

And that is not on the "casuals", that is on those of us who do higher-end content. Most "casual" players I encounter would be happy to do the puzzles in Qarn or wander into side hallways, because they're not the ones trying to speed-run the dungeons. You want the devs to cater to us? They did; I would lay solid odds that's a big part of why more recent dungeons are now pre-optimized into linear hallways for us.

You have it backwards. Part of the fun in re-running MMO dungeons comes from knowing all the little routing and pulling tricks and being able to show off your skills. You make a video game dungeon so people can discern which parts are necessary and find the route through. That is not a flaw of the content, that is the intent. Puzzles are not worthless for having solutions!

Other games solve the problem of people optimizing away side paths and pulling everything by putting stuff in side paths that makes people want to go down them and creating enemies that are capable of killing careless players. FF14 "solves" the problem by preemptively removing the possibility of fun, churning out bland hallways with automatic pull partitions and useless loot you'll replace after an hour. It's terrible, robotic, cynical design.

"But people will be rude to new players who don't know the routes!"

Just like how they're rude to new players who want to watch the long story cutscenes in ARR dungeons? No, they aren't, because the community and moderators already come down hard on jerks who ruin the new player experience.

[Packetdancer]

You have it backwards. Part of the fun in re-running MMO dungeons comes from knowing all the little routing and pulling tricks and being able to show off your skills. You make a video game dungeon so people can discern which parts are necessary and find the route through. That is not a flaw of the content, that is the intent. Puzzles are not worthless for having solutions!

That is definitely part of the appeal of repeating content for many people, in many games! However, many dev teams will see a difference between "Look at how quickly I've got this down to run it after all my practice!" (e.g., speed-running, which you reference) and people trying to do things in the fastest way possible the first time through.

(Source: Used to work at a game company professionally.)

After all, even if you get the newbie message at the beginning of an ARR dungeon, I rarely ever see people interested/willing in going down those side pathways for the sake of the newbie.

"But people will be rude to new players who don't know the routes!"

Just like how they're rude to new players who want to watch the long story cutscenes in ARR dungeons? No, they aren't, because the community and moderators already come down hard on jerks who ruin the new player experience.

While I'm inclined to agree that it is not the majority of the community, demonstrably there is a subset of players who in fact would do precisely that; the fact that folks would not let first-timers watch the long story cutscenes in ARR dungeons is literally why the cutscenes in the Praetorium were made unskippable.

I will also point out that threads semi-frequently crop up here on the forums justifying why it's okay to force people—even first-timers—to speed-run a dungeon because "I just want to get my dailies over with" and "Big pulls are the only way to make a dungeon a little interesting." (I don't entirely disagree with the second statement, mind you, but still.)

Again: I do not think this is the majority of the community, but it definitely is a sentiment out there.