Skill Point distribution [dev1021]

[ESAR]

The fact is the only way to fairly distribute SP is through action based SP gain. SE knew this, that's why they initially attempted this.

The devs released the initial system probably with this realization, the only way to make every enemy an ideal target is some sort of hit based SP gain.

There were some problems with the initial introduction. The change in attack speed from the long paced out alpha attack to the quick action-like attack we currently possess meant there initial calculations on how SP was going to be gained needed to change.
I don't know exactually what happened here, but it failed miserably.


There is a way this can all be salvaged though. If SP was gained every hit but in a way that was fair between the classes, this would allow us ANY target as a valid target to level off of.

Action based SP gain is the ONLY way this will happen.

The current way they adjust SP is very sloppy and takes alot of time and energy. An action based SP gain system would be very easy to implement and require little to no work to maintain.

I have the actual system laid out but I refuse to post it. Last time I did I was attacked by a tonn of people that just did not understand the math involved and had developed a real hatred for Action based SP (because of the original failed system). I've no desire dancing that dance again, all anyone really needs to know is a system like this would work.

They formula can now be found here:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-dev1021/page2

This is the base of the formula, so it has no attractive qualities yet.
(some ideas for that follow the explanation.)

Formula:

SP= ab+ac-a

(The formula was originally "SP=abc" but I found a flaw, hense the change. What I did was make all TP abilites equal, the original formula favoured only higher TP/Stamina abilites.)

If in a party, every participants SP is calculated together and split evenly.

Also, as of now SP is calculated based on highest level in the party to prevent SP manipulation in the form of having low ranks in your party buffing for exploited SP.
I was also thinking something along the lines of having ranks 5 less then the highest being rounded up to the -5 mark. This would prevent parties from wanting to maintian tight level restrictions. If the highest in a party is rank 26, everyone 20 and under would be rounded up to 21 in order to prevent expliot (This is only in respect to the SP they can gain.)


(a) Difficulty multiplier.
This is based on the enemies difficulty. An even match will yield a multiplier of 10.
The multipliers:
1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,12,14,16,18,20,22,24,26,28,30,33,36,39,42,45,48...
If the difficulty of the monster increases the multiplier increases accordingly.


(b) Stamina multiplier.
This is related to the stamina used for the action being calculated. 20% is our base for this multiplier, 20% yields a 1.0 multiplier. 40% 2.0 and 80% a 4.0.


(c) TP Multiplier.
The base for this is 0TP and yields a multiplier of 1.0, every 250TP adds .25 to this value. Therefore, a skill that uses 250TP will give 1.25; a skill 1000tp, 2.0; and 2000tp, 3.0.


(I've kept "b and c" variables linear in order to balance everything and prevent exploits. Difficulty gradually increases to promote tougher battles.)


Now the equation above is "(a x b) + (a x c)- a" equals SP. let's calculate a few actions.

(Gladiator will be used for these examples.)


Light Slash:

(Used on an enemy your level)
SP=(10x1.125)+(10x1.0)-10= 11.25 or 11 SP (after rounding.)

(Used on an enemy five levels below)
SP=(5x1.125)+(5x1.0)-5= 5.625 or 6 SP (I'm just going to show rounded answers from now on.)

(Used on an enemy five levels above)
SP=(20x1.125)+(20x1.0)-20= 23 SP


Light Stab: (For this just answers)

(=)
10 SP

(-5)
5 SP

(+5)
20 SP


Circle Slash:

(=)
(10x2.25)+(10x2.0)-10= 33 SP

(-5)
(5x2.25)+(5x2.0)-5= 16 SP

(+5)
(20x2.25)+(20x2.0)-20= 65 SP


Phalanx: (costs 0 stamina, keep that in mind)

(=)
(10x0)+(10x1.25)-10 = 3 SP

(-5)
1 SP

(+5)
5 SP


Provoke:

(=)
(10x1.875)+(10x1.0)-10= 19 SP

(-5)
9 SP

(+5)
37.5 SP


So there's the basic math, it's balanced straight across the board; favours no enemy, no exploits, no actions.

I should mention, there is no need to balance this system (or at least with everyones help there shouldn't be) once an enemy is given a level, it's balanced right into the equation.


In the area of magic, I need alot more information then I possess. This part is easier left to the devs as they have all this nessasary information. I however would have to do extreme amounts of testing that I just don't have the time for sorry.



Now in the area of ways to add benefit to strategy in battle, a chain bonus for killing enemies quick and maybe some sort of effect bonus.

I think a bonus to AOE attacks would be a nice addtion as well.

Chain bonus could be a multiplier given to the basic attacks that ever so slightly increases as the bonus gets higher. Or as a lump sum given at the end of each battle.

Effect bonus could be a way to give bonus to criticals and reduce SP if attacks are resisted or blocked.

Normal unresisted blow could be 1.0 muliplier,
A critical hit 1.25 muliplier.
Half resisted 0.5 muliplier
quarter resisted 0.25.

If you power up attacks and they do above and beyond what's expected, there could be a bonus to that as well.
Raging strikes 50% damage to the attack, therefore recieves a 1.5 muliplier to SP.

An attack like phalanx for instance that is a counter attack in nature and very powerfull at that can recieve a muliplier as a bonus. Phalanx does about 4x the damage of a normal attack, so could recieve a 4.0 mulitplier.

For AOE's
Only Attack AOE's would recieve a bonus, we cannot do cures, buffs or debuff because people will exploit them.

This could easily be done by just having every connection give it's alloted SP.

[Betelgeuzah]

It doesn't. It won't.

[Linnear]

It doesn't. It won't.

I just want to make sure I understand you, you want them to reimplement an action based SP system, so you can SP off of every mob equally?

That won't work becasue HP levels of the different mob types varies, and the number of actions you do on each mob is different as a result. Also for classes like Glad and Thm who have two skill to level up will require to level each actions up seperatly. Even if this system of yours worked, which I doubt it would, it isn't fun, your rewarded more for preforming more abilities, then for killing mobs faster, or for using defensive abilities. You want to have a system that encourages people to play well and kill things faster/better, not to pinprick things to death for more SP.

[ESAR]

I just want to make sure I understand you, you want them to reimplement an action based SP system, so you can SP off of every mob equally?

That won't work becasue HP levels of the different mob types varies, and the number of actions you do on each mob is different as a result. Also for classes like Glad and Thm who have two skill to level up will require to level each actions up seperatly. Even if this system of yours worked, which I doubt it would, it isn't fun, your rewarded more for preforming more abilities, then for killing mobs faster, or for using defensive abilities. You want to have a system that encourages people to play well and kill things faster/better, not to pinprick things to death for more SP.

It is based on the number of actions used, therefore if it takes 5 actions to kill one mob and 15 to kill another, the one that awards 15 will give you approximatlely 3 times the SP. (this would ultimately vary on the attacks being used)

This is just the base of the system. Other bonuses can be added such as..
chain bonus (to reward people for killing faster)
Strategy bonuses (bounes to things like multi-target actions (excluding cures and buffs), attacks only)
Possibly a bonus to the effectiveness of an attack, full effectiveness 1.0X multiplier an attack half resisted .50 multiplier.
Also a bonus given for battle regimens and using attacks that a monster is weak to.

Party SP would be consolidated and split evenly at the end, to reward all players fairly.

[Betelgeuzah]

Everyone would try to keep a monster alive as long as possible, and spam skills that don't do much damage. Fast kills would be discouraged.

There really isn't much good about this system.

[ESAR]

Everyone would try to keep a monster alive as long as possible, and spam skills that don't do much damage. Fast kills would be discouraged.

There really isn't much good about this system.

You could do that, or you could kill faster and keep the chain bonus alive.

Yes people could slowly kill a monster, but they would receive approximatively the same SP as if you fought at a normal pace.
It wouldn't be the pace of the battle that gave you an increase in SP, rather it would be fighting more difficult battles that would result in the most significant SP increase.

[Betelgeuzah]

You could do that, or you could kill faster and keep the chain bonus alive.

Yes people could slowly kill a monster, but they would receive approximatively the same SP as if you fought at a normal pace.
It wouldn't be the pace of the battle that gave you an increase in SP, rather it would be fighting more difficult battles that would result in the most significant SP increase.

What does this mean in practice? You aren't giving any specifics. Also with so many party setups there is no way they can balance the system universally. This suggestion simply doesn't have any practicality. It would be filled with exceptions and would take years to balance correctly. You don't build a game off ideals.

[Rentahamster]

Dude, you've had at least 3 threads about this already. Why did you delete the last one? I spent a lot of time crafting my position in an organized and informative way. I already showed you how action-based SP doesn't work, and instead of furthering the debate like you promised, you just deleted the thread and all the hard work I did.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...www.google.com

You mention the "hate" you got in the other thread, but I was always critiquing the merits of your proposed system and never denigrated your character.

You can't just say "my idea works but I won't tell you how". That doesn't give any of us any reason to believe you.

[yukikaze_yanagi]

I say this: "everything related to old way of sp distribution it's the evil incarnate".
So, no thx

[Shadowskill]

This system could work, but can be seriously abused.

Those that wish to abuse the system can just as many said, keep the monster alive while spamming abilities till SP is capped. There is no incentive in killing the monster fast due to the limited SP gained for faster kills, would also limit certain classes that don't have many helpful abilities to use.

Would turn the system on itself, people will go the easiest route which would gain the most SP possible.

Now if there was a way to balance the usage of abilities to set a standard SP gain, I for one would like to see how this system would work. could be a new direction in the game.

Post the math/explanation and hopefully we can all come up with a method to increase the structure as well find flaws with the system, only true way is to work the "idea" and find/tweak/remove any flaws that may be in place.