Skill Point distribution [dev1021]

[ESAR]

This is the base of the formula, so it has no attractive qualities yet.
(some ideas for that follow the explanation.)

Formula:

SP= ab+ac-a

(The formula was originally "SP=abc" but I found a flaw, hense the change. What I did was make all TP abilites equal, the original formula favoured only higher TP/Stamina abilites.)

If in a party, every participants SP is calculated together and split evenly.

Also, as of now SP is calculated based on highest level in the party to prevent SP manipulation in the form of having low ranks in your party buffing for exploited SP.
I was also thinking something along the lines of having ranks 5 less then the highest being rounded up to the -5 mark. This would prevent parties from wanting to maintian tight level restrictions. If the highest in a party is rank 26, everyone 20 and under would be rounded up to 21 in order to prevent expliot (This is only in respect to the SP they can gain.)


(a) Difficulty multiplier.
This is based on the enemies difficulty. An even match will yield a multiplier of 10.
The multipliers:
1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,12,14,16,18,20,22,24,26,28,30,33,36,39,42,45,48...
If the difficulty of the monster increases the multiplier increases accordingly.


(b) Stamina multiplier.
This is related to the stamina used for the action being calculated. 20% is our base for this multiplier, 20% yields a 1.0 multiplier. 40% 2.0 and 80% a 4.0.


(c) TP Multiplier.
The base for this is 0TP and yields a multiplier of 1.0, every 250TP adds .25 to this value. Therefore, a skill that uses 250TP will give 1.25; a skill 1000tp, 2.0; and 2000tp, 3.0.


(I've kept "b and c" variables linear in order to balance everything and prevent exploits. Difficulty gradually increases to promote tougher battles.)


Now the equation above is "(a x b) + (a x c)- a" equals SP. let's calculate a few actions.

(Gladiator will be used for these examples.)


Light Slash:

(Used on an enemy your level)
SP=(10x1.125)+(10x1.0)-10= 11.25 or 11 SP (after rounding.)

(Used on an enemy five levels below)
SP=(5x1.125)+(5x1.0)-5= 5.625 or 6 SP (I'm just going to show rounded answers from now on.)

(Used on an enemy five levels above)
SP=(20x1.125)+(20x1.0)-20= 23 SP


Light Stab: (For this just answers)

(=)
10 SP

(-5)
5 SP

(+5)
20 SP


Circle Slash:

(=)
(10x2.25)+(10x2.0)-10= 33 SP

(-5)
(5x2.25)+(5x2.0)-5= 16 SP

(+5)
(20x2.25)+(20x2.0)-20= 65 SP


Phalanx: (costs 0 stamina, keep that in mind)

(=)
(10x0)+(10x1.25)-10 = 3 SP

(-5)
1 SP

(+5)
5 SP


Provoke:

(=)
(10x1.875)+(10x1.0)-10= 19 SP

(-5)
9 SP

(+5)
37.5 SP


So there's the basic math, it's balanced straight across the board; favours no enemy, no exploits, no actions.

I should mention, there is no need to balance this system (or at least with everyones help there shouldn't be) once an enemy is given a level, it's balanced right into the equation.


In the area of magic, I need alot more information then I possess. This part is easier left to the devs as they have all this nessasary information. I however would have to do extreme amounts of testing that I just don't have the time for sorry.



Now in the area of ways to add benefit to strategy in battle, a chain bonus for killing enemies quick and maybe some sort of effect bonus.

I think a bonus to AOE attacks would be a nice addtion as well.

Chain bonus could be a multiplier given to the basic attacks that ever so slightly increases as the bonus gets higher. Or as a lump sum given at the end of each battle.

Effect bonus could be a way to give bonus to criticals and reduce SP if attacks are resisted or blocked.

Normal unresisted blow could be 1.0 muliplier,
A critical hit 1.25 muliplier.
Half resisted 0.5 muliplier
quarter resisted 0.25.

If you power up attacks and they do above and beyond what's expected, there could be a bonus to that as well.
Raging strikes 50% damage to the attack, therefore recieves a 1.5 muliplier to SP.

An attack like phalanx for instance that is a counter attack in nature and very powerfull at that can recieve a muliplier as a bonus. Phalanx does about 4x the damage of a normal attack, so could recieve a 4.0 mulitplier.

For AOE's
Only Attack AOE's would recieve a bonus, we cannot do cures, buffs or debuff because people will exploit them.

This could easily be done by just having every connection give it's alloted SP.

[Laughlyn]

Dude, you've had at least 3 threads about this already. Why did you delete the last one? I spent a lot of time crafting my position in an organized and informative way. I already showed you how action-based SP doesn't work, and instead of furthering the debate like you promised, you just deleted the thread and all the hard work I did.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...www.google.com

You mention the "hate" you got in the other thread, but I was always critiquing the merits of your proposed system and never denigrated your character.

You can't just say "my idea works but I won't tell you how". That doesn't give any of us any reason to believe you.

lol the last one he made he flammed back & called us all stupid or something,
i was gonna reply back but before i manage to finish up my reply the Post was
locked & sent to the bottom of the endless abyss.

And btw....

I still dont like this Idea !

[ESAR]

lol the last one he made he flammed back & called us all stupid or something,
i was gonna reply back but before i manage to finish up my reply the Post was
locked & sent to the bottom of the endless abyss.

And btw....

I still dont like this Idea !

Yeah sorry bout that, I did get upset.
I didn't call you stupid, I said you'll are fighting with blind stupidity xD
The arguments that were being used were pretty much all unrelated to the system I created and no matter how many times I tried to explain it you just refused to take the time and understand what I was talking about.
You'll are idolizing the current SP system, but the current SP system is garbage.
Yeah it get's the job done, but there's a better way, some sort of action based SP. It's the only way to really bring balance.
I will argue this out with you'll, but only if you find flaws in the math to the system I presented, I'm just going to ignore you otherwise (sorry).
Of course if you really do figure out why this wouldn't work I'll bow down peacefully.
Action based SP is the way to go if we can get a solid base to the system.

[Laughlyn]

um i hate to point out, but how can you claim current SP system is crap...
after i found your character & information about your last gained achievements...
wich were 24-10-2010??

Link:
http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com...cicuid=2880775
(And no there's not many players with that name....)

It's no wonder people are argueing back at this since you obviously havent
even bothered trying the updated "SP Gain" system, how can anyone take this seriously when
you base this new concept on the old system?

I suggest you re-evaluate your suggestion based upon current gameplay.
Try FFXIV again before making assumptions instead of facts.

The current SP gain system might not be perfect but it's far from broken or unfair.

[ESAR]

um i hate to point out, but how can you claim current SP system is crap...
after i found your character & information about your last gained achievements...
wich were 24-10-2010??

Link:
http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com...cicuid=2880775
(And no there's not many players with that name....)

It's no wonder people are argueing back at this since you obviously havent
even bothered trying the updated "SP Gain" system, how can anyone take this seriously when
you base this new concept on the old system?

I suggest you re-evaluate your suggestion based upon current gameplay.
Try FFXIV again before making assumptions instead of facts.

The current SP gain system might not be perfect but it's far from broken or unfair.

Why am I going to waste my time when you're not arguing anything relevant.
I need help figuring out how this can work not spend years arguing with someone that wont take time outta their day to punch a few calculations into a calculator to see that the system is almost complete, if it isn't already.
It does everything I said plus stuff that you'd probably like to see.

If it takes you knowing my characters for you to take me seriously here I'll make some new ones, I don't care I feel cheated anyway, the best part of FFXI was the build to 75 anyway, everything that you did after was cool too but it shouldn't be that the climb is boring and unstrategic and all the cool shit happens when you hit 50.

Geo meta (Kashuan)
Myrddin soleece (Kashuan)
and 6 others I used to test the three main stories.

I'm sorry but the game is boring. Yeah behests give great SP, but I don't want to only fight in some flipping spamfest for 5 minutes once an hour. As it stands that's the only meaningful way to get SP.

If you understood the math in the formula you would understand that it's very close, if not already there, to opening up anything as a target in battle and giving rewards to meaningful stuff in battle like strategy use rather then relying on the monsters defense and HP to determine if it's a worthy target of a grind.

I'm sorry if you want to fight behests from 1-49 or you want to grind the quickest easiest mobs with the same boring very repetitive style but I and I'm sure others want to be able to just do whatever they want and be rewarded for teaming up with others to fight monsters that are tough because they alone are the only real way to increase SP.

I need to be challenged and that's seriously lacking in this game.

[Laughlyn]

Well ofc its boring, everything dosent resolve by grinding leveling & everything is based
upon how much / little sp you get.

The fun is what you make of it, if you choose to spend your time trying to improve
the currently working SP system then thats your choice, some of us choose to
accept what we have go from there.

You still cannot base your concept on the new system if you havent experienced it properly.
If you have problems finding parties its more likely the that servers low population or something
realated to how people likes to play, solo or party.

You can go around blaming the current system in place when it infact yields
much more & equally devided SP compared to the previous one.

Im no elite player or anything, i have 1x r50 class and a few above 20+, ive been playing since day one
and if i spent less time chatting / exploring...etc i guess i could have had atleast 3-4 rank 50 classes today.

It's not hard at all getting from 1-20 in 1 day. (Base upon battle-class)

Rank 1-20 1-2 days
Rank 20-30 3-5 days
Rank 30-40 5-6 days
after 40 i think you can gain 1 level per full day.

So more or less 1x rank 50 on 6 weeks... how is that even close to
being crap when it was 4-6 months before the new SP system?

If you really seek challenge then the obvious solution is to actually ask for content
not some rubbish new SP system that completly revamps the current entire game & its mechanics.

Even if you hit 50 in 6 weeks, there's nothing more to do than run around gaining loot, and marks.
You gains SP but wont recieve it, Same goes for exp.

Being r50 now is pointless unless your trying to go up against NM's.

The reason for this isnt a problem with the SP systeem but the lack of content for mid & high level players.

[Delmontyb]

I get what you are saying, but that wouldn't fix people spamming actions, as well as healing. As a healer, on this system I wouldn't get any SP for my actions. While I would get from the party split, I think you'd see players equip healing spells, and drop a healer from the group so they don't have to divide the sp by another player who isn't killing as fast.

If they were able to find a system that worked, sure, but I think what they have now works, better, and with the changes in the battle system fast approaching, this all might be a mute point.

I guess we will see what's in store.

[ESAR]

Well ofc its boring, everything dosent resolve by grinding leveling & everything is based
upon how much / little sp you get.

The fun is what you make of it, if you choose to spend your time trying to improve
the currently working SP system then thats your choice, some of us choose to
accept what we have go from there.

You still cannot base your concept on the new system if you havent experienced it properly.
If you have problems finding parties its more likely the that servers low population or something
realated to how people likes to play, solo or party.

You can go around blaming the current system in place when it infact yields
much more & equally devided SP compared to the previous one.

Im no elite player or anything, i have 1x r50 class and a few above 20+, ive been playing since day one
and if i spent less time chatting / exploring...etc i guess i could have had atleast 3-4 rank 50 classes today.

It's not hard at all getting from 1-20 in 1 day. (Base upon battle-class)

Rank 1-20 1-2 days
Rank 20-30 3-5 days
Rank 30-40 5-6 days
after 40 i think you can gain 1 level per full day.

So more or less 1x rank 50 on 6 weeks... how is that even close to
being crap when it was 4-6 months before the new SP system?

If you really seek challenge then the obvious solution is to actually ask for content
not some rubbish new SP system that completly revamps the current entire game & its mechanics.

Even if you hit 50 in 6 weeks, there's nothing more to do than run around gaining loot, and marks.
You gains SP but wont recieve it, Same goes for exp.

Being r50 now is pointless unless your trying to go up against NM's.

The reason for this isnt a problem with the SP systeem but the lack of content for mid & high level players.

The reason SP is so easy now is because they are just throwing it at us.
They're using behests to do that. Rather then fixing the system as they go, they decided it was best to nerf leveling until they can figure out a better solution.

Most of the reason I don't want to make it to 50 yet is because I like the climb so much, I find it the best part of the game. Regardless, it needs to be easy and interesting for players.

Right now that five minutes once an hour isn't very fun. Of course you can do Guildleves but some like to kill monsters on the field as well. Anyway, it takes a different type of strategy to kill each individual monster as a team.

Before they made the switch from action based to lump sum it was very rewarding and challenging to seek out new adversaries to fight for SP. There was alot of exploring involved, it was fun. If this current system stays, the game will never be like that, it's actually impossible for them to balance the game with the current type of SP distribution.

I know, you're not going to believe me about balance, but what do you imagine is balanced?
Balance would be this, all monsters at any given level give the same SP per hour, they only way to do that is if you pretty much relate SP to time spent in battle.
So basically if you fought threw 5 monsters in the time it would take to to fight one other you would make the same SP.
Obviously this is going to vary, but not by much.
If it takes you an extra few second to grab another monster, that's coming out of your SP gain, but that comes outta the current system just the same.

It basically comes down to this, do you want to be able to fight anything and the only way to increase SP is through increasing the difficulty of monsters or the strategy in which you kill them. Or would you rather this game end up like FFXI, only basically one monster gives you ideal SP for every level range, Also having only certain jobs wanted in the parties.

*Dunes*
Lizards in 9-11
Crabs 11-13
Gobs 13-16
Fish 16-18

*Qufim*
worms 18-20
Crabs 21-22
worms 21-23
fish 23-25

*Jungles*
25-27 mandy
27-29 gobs
llizards.

Anyway I could do this all day.

At 75 we hit Birds and they became the only thing we could level off of. Only specific jobs were wanted.
I know, jobs are very versatile so no one will be left out, but that means we also have to fight a specific way, just slaughter helpless enemies really fast.

If the system was changed back to action based, it would reopen their inital goal of allowing us to fight anything. This can only be good, there's nothing wrong with balance, it's what we wish we had but never did. Rather then being restricted in the way you fight, or what, we could do anything.
I've worked hard on this and that math has became near flawless, every time someone brings up something wrong with it, it's fairly easy to fix. I just have to manipulate the initial equation.
There's another huge added bonus to this type of SP system. They never have to adjust it. Because it is one formula, one equation and all the variables are linear, it's prepackaged to use flawlessly in any aspect of the game.

I don't just like saying this stuff because I like to hear myself talk, I really don't. This is tiring for me.
The thing is though I'm really good at math, I understand how complicated this current system is to balance, I understand their intent with the initial system (opening up anything as a target) and I used all this understanding to create a system that would be fair and fun and favour no class or no enemy.

It's really a step forward for an MMO. The balancing of SP has been completely removed.

If you have any questions I'm more then happy to answer them, but this system does everything I'm saying, I'm not making that up.

I was hoping Shadowtail would throw in his input, sounded like he new what this system could be.

[yukikaze_yanagi]

For the last time, no.
everybody asking for strategy in the battle, and i don't see strategy in spamming attack because otherwise you don't get any rp
i don't want a healer race where the first healing it's the one exping
and as i already said, if you want strategy, you can't have a sistem encouraging spam
any sistem is good, but not like that

[Kimahri]

I just want to make sure I understand you, you want them to reimplement an action based SP system, so you can SP off of every mob equally?

That won't work becasue HP levels of the different mob types varies, and the number of actions you do on each mob is different as a result. Also for classes like Glad and Thm who have two skill to level up will require to level each actions up seperatly. Even if this system of yours worked, which I doubt it would, it isn't fun, your rewarded more for preforming more abilities, then for killing mobs faster, or for using defensive abilities. You want to have a system that encourages people to play well and kill things faster/better, not to pinprick things to death for more SP.

This is true. The previous system was a great idea, but was implemented with carelessness. Seems to me they tried to take the Skill Level off of XI's skilling weapons & abilities tree and try to use it to level a class? Hell no. That's basically plagerism but you only cut out one part to add your own.

I've seen this same thread over and over, ESAR. You can keep this up until you're blue in the face, but they already changed it. I don't think they'll go back to it because you posted a long thread over it. Everybody in here has voted against you saying that the system failed and needed to be scrapped. EXP(SP) should always be decided on how difficult the enemy was to slay. Not how many times you were able to use a certain ability on it.