Dungeon design is just so boring and formulaic [Spoilers]

[Azuri]

Not worth the devs' time to pander to such a small minority of FFIXV's players .. SE have said the percentage of 14's players who do 'mythic' content is even less than WOW's percentage and that is barely in double digits.

35% of JP playerbase have cleared E4S.

[jadeblade]

we need mythic plus dungeons

HARD NO, DO SAVAGE. THATS YOUR MYTHIC PLUS.

[NegativeS]

we need mythic plus dungeons

[Shurrikhan]

we need mythic plus dungeons

I mean, first we'd need dungeons worth turning into Mythic Plus. Trash in this game isn't just a byword for "mobs between bosses". They're... truly absent of any interesting mechanics.

They've tried exploratory dungeons before. The majority of the players hate them, and the ones who do engage the only successful ones... speedrun them (PotD, HoH).

Wait, wait, wait. You're calling PotD and HoH exploratory... dungeons? They're randomly-generated grids with textures determined by floor number. You might as well call Aquapolis or Exciteatron 6000 a dungeon.

Should have a dungeon design contest.

We could do an informal one? Some ideas have already cropped up here and there. Many threads are quickly lost to the swell of pages, but I think I started up one to a similar-ish effect not too long ago.

Ahh, there it is: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...Dungeon-Design

[Dogempire]

Wait, wait, wait. You're calling PotD and HoH exploratory... dungeons? They're randomly-generated grids with textures determined by floor number. You might as well call Aquapolis or Exciteatron 6000 a dungeon.

It's an area filled with monsters, patrols, and loot. The goal is to progress deeper into the dungeon (Or I guess up to a higher floor if it's HoH) and beat the boss at the end of every 10th floor while gradually gaining levels (Or really just upgrading your weapon/armor). It's the closest to a dungeon you'll get in this game

[Velnora]

It's an area filled with monsters, patrols, and loot. The goal is to progress deeper into the dungeon (Or I guess up to a higher floor if it's HoH) and beat the boss at the end of every 10th floor while gradually gaining levels (Or really just upgrading your weapon/armor). It's the closest to a dungeon you'll get in this game

It's an area with preset "gear". With the only meaningful rewards being at the end, which require a stupid amount of time to get to.

[Dogempire]

It's an area with preset "gear". With the only meaningful rewards being at the end, which require a stupid amount of time to get to.

That's kind of the point of deep dungeons? The further you delve the more risky it is that you die and the stronger the creatures you have to fight, but the better rewards you get

The reason dungeons are designed as they are is because people will optimize the fun out of everything to get their reward faster, so why bother adding alternate paths if people are just going to take the easiest one and leave the rest unexplored, if dungeons were super intricate and hard to navigate with lots of possible paths to get to each boss people would complain because they just want to get to the boss, kill it, get reward, and leave, having to do any thinking in the process of getting to the boss is a no-go.

[kejakalope]

Wait, wait, wait. You're calling PotD and HoH exploratory... dungeons? They're randomly-generated grids with textures determined by floor number. You might as well call Aquapolis or Exciteatron 6000 a dungeon.

Yes. If you want to remove them from the sample pool, then there has never been an exploratory dungeon that wasn't absolutely reviled by the playerbase at large. Once you know the layout of something like Toto-Rak, you will never want to leave the main path ever again. It's no longer "exploratory" after the first run, it's a source of arguments between exhausted veterans and the one bright-eyed newbie getting lost down the hallways to see what's there. Nobody opens the bonus doors in Qarn. Nobody enjoys the weird design of Cutter's Cry. People despise Toto-Rak. People want to die when MSQ roulette gives them Castrum Meridianum. This is fundamentally an action game. You are asking for design that goes with a fundamentally different kind of MMO, like FFXI.

[SeverianLyonesse]

Yes. If you want to remove them from the sample pool, then there has never been an exploratory dungeon that wasn't absolutely reviled by the playerbase at large. Once you know the layout of something like Toto-Rak, you will never want to leave the main path ever again. It's no longer "exploratory" after the first run, it's a source of arguments between exhausted veterans and the one bright-eyed newbie getting lost down the hallways to see what's there. Nobody opens the bonus doors in Qarn. Nobody enjoys the weird design of Cutter's Cry. People despise Toto-Rak. People want to die when MSQ roulette gives them Castrum Meridianum. This is fundamentally an action game. You are asking for design that goes with a fundamentally different kind of MMO, like FFXI.

See, I disagree with this.

If dungeons hid chests/enemy drops with things that players would actually want or find value in, more players would enjoy exploring dungeons.

And yeah, that wouldn't change the fact that we would still have a sizeable portion of the community that would just speedrun the dungeons anyway. But that doesn't speak anything to the dungeon design so much as the job and leveling design. Let's consider PotD/HoH as part of the "exploration content" -- the reason people speedrun it isn't because the content itself isn't fun to explore. They speedrun it because the game encourages them to care more about leveling than the content they actually use to level.

I think part of the issue is definitely how the job/leveling system is set up. And I think another huge part of the issue is the very nature of MMOs and how XIV in particular doesn't seem to mind being inefficient and wasting players' time all over the place. If the UI, travel, market/inventory, etc. weren't so janky, on top of a system that requires players to play through a snowball of story just to unlock basic content...players wouldn't be so preoccupied with rushing through content all the time.

I really like FFXIV's worldbuilding and art design. Arguably the best in the series, and the best in the genre. As a game though, I can only barely tolerate it because of how underdeveloped and inconsiderate the systems are.

[kejakalope]

See, I disagree with this.

If dungeons hid chests/enemy drops with things that players would actually want or find value in, more players would enjoy exploring dungeons.

And yeah, that wouldn't change the fact that we would still have a sizeable portion of the community that would just speedrun the dungeons anyway. But that doesn't speak anything to the dungeon design so much as the job and leveling design. Let's consider PotD/HoH as part of the "exploration content" -- the reason people speedrun it isn't because the content itself isn't fun to explore. They speedrun it because the game encourages them to care more about leveling than the content they actually use to level.

I think part of the issue is definitely how the job/leveling system is set up. And I think another huge part of the issue is the very nature of MMOs and how XIV in particular doesn't seem to mind being inefficient and wasting players' time all over the place. If the UI, travel, market/inventory, etc. weren't so janky, on top of a system that requires players to play through a snowball of story just to unlock basic content...players wouldn't be so preoccupied with rushing through content all the time.

I really like FFXIV's worldbuilding and art design. Arguably the best in the series, and the best in the genre. As a game though, I can only barely tolerate it because of how underdeveloped and inconsiderate the systems are.

So the thing is, if you want content like that, it needs to be its own thing-- some kind of deep delve you can only go into once a day or somesuch, with a focus on chance at cool prizes rather than the XP bonanza that the two current deep dungeons have become. Not a standard dungeon on any of the standard roulettes, because that design and experience is wildly at odds with what the game's basic dungeon design is and has been since mid-ARR. Trying to totally shift course on standard dungeon design now would be a disaster of epic proportions.