Concrete Examples of "Good" Dungeon Design

[Shurrikhan]

Oftentimes on these forums we will hear mention that dungeons, especially in/for their time, used to be more challenging--and, for many, thereby more engaging--and/or varied and thereby interesting.

To that matter, I would add only that challenge in and of itself does little; rather, it is merely often a requirement for variety or novelty. Without a need to change one's approach or work within certain constraints, one has little reason not to default to the same basic solutions to anything and everything, quickly rendering the different iterations of that content type mostly indistinguishable, at least in regard to the actual combat.

As such, we can mostly dispense with discussion challenge outside of its variety provided, just as we can fault potential variety that lacked the challenge to be actually realized.

My goal with this thread is to try to bring some concrete examples to that discussion.

The procedure below is just one hopefully productive template; feel free to follow it or dismiss it as you please.

1. Identify a boss design that seemed good for its time. In what ways did it favorably shape its combat experience. How might that be taken further or additionally improved upon (by whatever other means)?
   
   
2. Identify a boss design that, in your opinion, fell painfully short of its potential. In what ways could it instead be made a fun fight?
   
   
3. Identify a unique part of a dungeon's experience between boss fights--be that something related to its trash packs, a particular mob therein, its environmental mechanics, or even the way mobs approached during a certain time--that made that dungeon more novel and interesting. How could that be improved upon? Or, how could that be applied elsewhere (e.g., to a dungeon that instead lacked anything of note between its bosses)?
   
   
4. Finally, more miscellaneously, what are some concrete mechanics or interactions that you might like to see in future dungeons? Contextualize them.

I'd recommend sticking to references within XIV, but if you there is a dungeon design that comes from a tab-target MMO with similarly little requisite coordination, CC, focus targeting, and so forth that'd seem relevant here, by all means, use that. Just please include explanation enough for those who've not played that game.

[Shurrikhan]

< I am reserving this space, just in case these views eventually convert into replies when people can find the time, to short-list some of the most liked examples given across the thread (or, alternatively, to toss in an example of my own to kick things off once I have said time). >

[Kaixern]

A fight that i really liked when it came out (and still like today) was the second boss, the golem (don't remember the exact name) in bardam's mettle.
It was a nice change of pace and the mechanics at the moment were not just about "kill as fast as possible while dodging AOE"
Every time i do this fight there are only two slight regrets that come to my mind.
That the fight is so short, they could have implemented a few other amusing mechanics
And also, (just personnal preference) i would have loved for the mechanics to be able to come out randomized for a better replayability on the long term.

I also liked the level of interaction that you had in some dungeons, like for example the stone vigil with the canons.
Whenever it was the normal mode (shooting the dragon) or the hard mode (having gunners to stun the turtle)
It wasn't perfect but at least it was something, and unique

As for the part concerning "the experience between boss fights", i have no memory of a real good moment of trash/gameplay in this game when it comes to dungeons, especially with shadowbringers (only good point now is the visualwhen going from Boss A to Boss B) so it's better for me to not say anything about that (might remember something about this another day, who knows)

As for mechanics and interactions in dungeons?
I don't know for sure, especially for ff14.
That could go from very basic stuff like more add type fights as a boss (like the second boss in Paglth'an) with more distinct behavior and mechanics between each other, fights like the rathalos/susano fight where someone go to a spot to activate a "quick time event", or even (there is almost no chance of it happening but might as well propose it) a fight like "the hall of reflection" in WoW where the boss runs after you on a long distance during the dungeon and you have to break wall after wall while killing the adds attacking you in order to escape him.
I'm sure among all of this there may be thing i'm proposing that may sound weird or dumb, but it's just to say that any new thing could be implemented by square enix as a mechanic and i think i would accept it ( not that much new mechanics to be honest, well that's just my feeling but feel free to correct me if needed)

[QooEr]

1. Identify a boss design that seemed good for its time. In what ways did it favorably shape its combat experience. How might that be taken further or additionally improved upon (by whatever other means)?
Theres actually quite a few bosses, dungeon or not, that i think have some very interesting concepts that arent seen much anywhere else.

For instance, the first boss of the Great Gubal Library. Its autoattacks don't just hurt the tank, but it constantly hits random party members. That alone makes healing in that boss so much more fun because there is actual danger in leaving your teammates at low health and waiting for something to come off cooldown. I also like how it punishes failing mechanics not with a vuln up, but with a dispellable debuff (heavy/frostbite/slow). We barely ever use esuna and those debuffs are actually worth dispelling.

The next boss i think is also very well done is Odin from Urth's Fount. Most of its mechanics are random, and a lot of the damage it does is proportional to max hp, which means you cannot outgear it too heavily, and being undergeared isnt too punishing either. i think its tuned at the perfect difficulty between normal and extreme content, and i really wish we had more fights that scratched that hard-but-low-stakes itch (not in dungeons, but elsewhere). Its overall a really good fight.

Finally Nael from ucob is probably one of the best designed bosses in the game imo. All of her mechanics happen in a timeline, as youd expect from a ffxiv encounter, but at the same time all of its mechanics resolve randomly, on different party members, in different order, etc. Nael is also good because while failing mechanics will most likely result in deaths and eventually a wipe, its not a forced wipe like in many savage encounters (e9s is particularly bad about this). Its mechanics flow like clockwork and you can recover a bad pull if you know what youre doing. Now, im not saying that dungeon bosses should be ucob-difficult, but nael does a good job of making every pull of the same fight feel different no matter how many times you do it. You will always resolve the same mechanics as everyone else (a lightning, a doom, 3 fire stacks) but the order and execution will change almost every time.


RNG mechanics keep fights feeling fresh, and dungeons that will be farmed for weeks need exactly that. A dungeon boss doesnt need to be overly complex, but dungeon bosses could use more random mechanics to keep them from being monotonous. Since nobody cares about parsing dungeons, RNG mechanics truly have a place to shine in dungeon bosses, and failing them doesnt need to be overly punishing either for them to be fun.

2. Identify a boss design that, in your opinion, fell painfully short of its potential. In what ways could it instead be made a fun fight?
The second boss from castrum abania is one thats well made. Or would be, if its mechanics were clearer. I really like how you have to see what element you have to attune yourself with, but it has one of the worst tells in that you have to read the chat log. I know the boss gets a buff on its status bar, but thats usually visible only after you probably already took damage from the reflect. Its completely unintuitive and the fight often devolves into the dps killing themselves while the tank inevitably dies to the tankbuster.

It has good ideas on principle, but just needs to be more intuitive so it doesnt go downhill so easily. Alternatively, its a bit too punishing. However it definitely had some good potential and an unique mechanic.

3. Identify a unique part of a dungeon's experience between boss fights--be that something related to its trash packs, a particular mob therein, its environmental mechanics, or even the way mobs approached during a certain time--that made that dungeon more novel and interesting. How could that be improved upon? Or, how could that be applied elsewhere (e.g., to a dungeon that instead lacked anything of note between its bosses)?
Im a fan of open rooms with trash packs, rather than actual hallways. This is better seen in Brayflox longstop, but its also present in aurum vale. the reason i think its better executed in brayflox is because for starters you actually can choose how to navigate that big room, and it very often differs between DF groups, while in AV you often just stick to the wall and pray nothing aggros you randomly. Rather than killing everything to open a door, you kill everything on your way to that door. it just feels more organic.

I also like environmental hazards like the exploding crystals in dzemael darkhold or the puddles in AV. makes tank positioning a bit more relevant without being overwhelming.


4. Finally, more miscellaneously, what are some concrete mechanics or interactions that you might like to see in future dungeons? Contextualize them.
Generally speaking i just wish there was more of two things in dungeons. 1. Random mechanics so the dungeon youll farm X times doesnt become stale, and 2. Proportional HP damage, so that you cant outgear or undergear it too hard.

[MellowMink]

Aurum Vale can definitely be annoying in Duty Finder, but I honestly like that it's one of the fun dungeons to make you have to think carefully about movement between boss encounters.

[ssunny2008]

I don´t think i can follow your rules that way, but let´s start:

Examples from other games:

Black Talon or the Esseles from SWTOR

Both dungeons are the first in the game. One is in the story line of the Sith Empire, the other from the Old Republic. There are a lot of well thought things in them.

- With Kotor on its back, of course this game is about decision-making and good / dark side. In both dungeons you´ve an early option to choose, either if you try to enter a ship, or if you just want to blow it up, whatever. This changes the whole dungeon for the rest of the time. Exactly said, you´ve like 2 dungeons in one. Both ways offer different bossfights and those bosses drop different rewards.
E.g. if you choose the good option, you fight an enter team of 4 republic soldiers. One of them is a healer, one a tank and 2 DPS. You need to focus down the healer first of course. At the end you get some legs with a high rarity as reward.
If you chose the dark side, you´ll fight a big droid instead. He´s a bunch of aoe explosions, hits hard and has a little DPS check. If you killed him, you got a chest.
(Don´t know about the exact loot, but if you wanted the complete "Black Talon" or "Esseles" gear, you´d to beat both ways.)

Away from the "choose" option, the rest is pretty much any dungeon in SWTOR

- The environment was well done. You´d more than just "wall to wall". Of course some little pathes had been a thing, but they always connected big hangars, controll centers or something like that. You were even able to use the environment to kill some add-packs or to open secret pathes. Either it was like an explosive barrel or overloaded electricity to activate, or some crafter jobs were able to activate something. You might have repaired a little droid which assist you with damage or healing for example.

- Addpacks were well placed. It wasn´t just 2 in front of you. You´d some adds who build a straight line to defend some point yes, but those had always elite / champion adds, you needed to CC, sleep or interupt. After killing them, you came into a controll center and the adds came out of elevators or ran downstairs to give the player some visual feedback like "Oh, they´re alerted and ready to fight."
In a big hangar on the other hand, you were able to choose your path, to sneak around to avoid massive fights.

- All adds "had a meaning". They rewarded the player with loot. Of course you got XP, but you got credits (gil) and either stuff to sell or some crafting materils. You had to loot them on your own. Of course it sounds bad and autoloot is QoL at its best. But it was again some feedback. You killed them, you looted them, you got something for your efford. It´s not really exciting to either get nothing or to open your inventory afterwards to be like "Oh i got....".

- They had sidequests. Those sidequests gave additional XP, achievements and 1 of them spawned an additional boss. This boss was either on the level of the endboss or stronger, but he gave rare loot. This could´ve be exclusive gear, a pet, a mount or maybe even a crafting recipe. E.g. A world - raidboss, not a standard worldboss, was the only guy in the game who gave the players the recipe to craft pink lightsaber crystals.

- As i said above, crafter were able to activate different things to assist the player in different ways. On the other hand gatherer were able to loot special things within the dungeons. So it wasn´t only a matter which "fighting - job" you play, even crafter and gatherer jobs brought some meaning into dungeons.

- Boss encounters have always been different. If you´d multiple bosses, the other ones changed their behavior based on which you killed first. Solo bosses hitted hard, you sometimes needed the terrain to survive or to get ride of a shield on him, whatever.

Under the line, players had more possibilities and the rewarding and visual feedback was well done. If you wanted a fast run, you´ve sneaked around to bypass some adds. If you wanted to farm, you took everything with you. If you wanted a challenge, you´ve done the sidequest and beat the bonus boss. Bosses haven´t been "stack / spread" only. They´ve mostly been unique, got well representated and had different ways to beat them.


Balder´s Temple from TERA

This dungeon has actually 2 great things.

- After beating the first boss, you move through a real labyrinth. Based on the path you choose, you´ve slightly different rooms / adds for the rest of the dungeon.

- The final boss has a great design in some way. It´s not too hard, but it´s cool. While the boss has different skills like aoe smashes, tb´s or roundhousekicks, a random players will get a dark screen. Someone else has to turn around mirrors to give the other player his vision back. Then you´ve a big cannon at the entrance the boss can destroy, you need to hold him away from it. You can activate the cannon twice if i remember correctly. This will blast the boss away for some seconds, so you can do free DPS. When the boss hit the 30% mark, a hard DPS check starts. The screen from everyone will get darker and darker within the time. At the moment everyone has a black screen, the fight is over. You need to kill the boss before it appears of course. While the gameplay is something different anyway, the mechanic is decent one and much more than "stack spread".


Let´s come to FF14 now.

Aurum Vale

I don´t get why so many are like "ühhh hard, annoying, whatever". It´s simple, because the mechanics in the boss fights are not well thought to the end. Adds and loot is irrelevant too and will become worse with Endwalker.

Let´s pick the first and last boss with the debuffs. Why do the plants respawn? It would be way better and more challenging if the plants would be limited. If you would have big DPS players, you won´t need them all. If you don´t have them, you´ve to take the plants a bit more strategically and the healers needs to put more efford in his job. Maybe even 3 stacks could cause an insta-death? This would atleast be a little hidden DPS check.


Ramuh EX

Not a dungeon, but a good bossfight for the beginning. Everyone has to work together. There is no way around that, noone can carry this solo. Tankbuster hits hard meanwhile tanks don´t have options to heal the whole fight solo as they´ve now. You need to free ppl, otherwise they´ll die or / and you´ll lose a bunch of DPS you need in the DPS check called "adds". The tether must be taken with a bit thoughts. When 2 ppl start to run to collect the orbs, you might collect too much of them, so the next tether will be either pain or a tank will die.
It´s not overfilled with mechanics and it´s not "moving from A to B". This fight shows how MMO´s should work. You´ve random encounter which could hit everyone. You´ve a DPS check and the best aspect, you need to work together. All current fights aren´t really "you need to work together". They´re like "If you fail, it´s a wipe and ppl gonna hate you!".


The Fractal Continuum (Hard)

This would be a perfect dungeon were SE could bring different pathes / bosses into. Let´s say we collect a codes from the beginning of the dungeon. Those codes are always different. At the end you could have 3 of them, if you found them all. Then you´ve a terminal where you put 1 code in and of course 1 of 3 bosses will appear. It´ll be somehow random, but you´ve a choice.
Maybe you could even have 4 codes. The first will cause a random encounter, the others are connected to one of the bosses. The codes are different, so noone can be like "i know the codes". But next to the codes you´ll have a little inscription which tells you something about the boss. The bosses could drop different rewards in the end, maybe everyone can drop a rare mat and all 3 combined will grant the player with a new mount.
It´s not much, but it´s some kind of reward and brings some replay-ability with it.

They could use something similar in Qarn with the stoneplates.


Bardam´s Mettle

The 2nd "boss" is really well done. Such mini-games are highly welcome. But it´s still way too easy. It would be cool if you would still fight some adds / a boss meanwhile or that the encounters drop faster. In it´s current form , it´s more like a new tutorial late in the game.


Overall dungeons in FF14 needs more variation and the player should be able to have more options to play around adds or different boss mechanics. The game has become only about "damage" and nothing else.

- Bosses and adds need to hit harder.
- TB should cause a dead tank when he don´t use a def.
- More debuffs, which you´ve to cleanse are needed.
- DPS checks are needed.
- We need little puzzles and rewards, which make exploration worth. Not only in dungeons, in the overworld too.
- We need optional challenges with rewards. Rewards which could be some special crafting recipes or that better gear which might be BiS for future savages.
- We need more visual feedback of a threat, not random adds running in circles to be there for whatever reason.

Man the whole dungeon and encounter design needs a complete revamp.


At the end, i would like to presentate something special:


Tam-Tara Advanced

Yes it´s implemented version is a good idea, but bad implemented. What if the whole dungeon would´ve randomized pathes? Atleast with 10 different patterns? What if you´ve always like 3 pathes with different bosses?

Let´s say, you start and choose a path. After you´ve choosed one, you can´t go back. Then you encounter different adds which tells something about the next boss. After beating the boss, you´re free to continue on your path or one of the 2 others. Either it continues to be a mystery or some little papers could tell you something about the ongoing path aswell. Atleast about one of the 3, the other 2 could stay hidden.
All of them will have 3 different bosses, so you would´ve 9 bosses in total. None of the bosses is "always the first / always the last". They´re completely random, so you can have like 504 different scenarios in each run. (I hope i did math correctly.)

For those who don´t understand what i mean, it would look like this:

1st boss, 2nd boss, 3rd boss or 1st boss, 5th boss, 9th boss or 456 or 527 or 983 or 124 or 125 etc..., while one of the 3 x 3 pathes will always give you a hint about the boss inside there.

Imagine, 1 Dungeon and 504 different ways you could encounter it. And you´ve some kind of choice.

On top...

- Bosses could change a bit, based on being "the first, the second or the last one". This means boss 1 in the first room would´ve like 3 mechanics. But if he appears in the last room, he´ll be advanced with 6 different mechanics.
- Based on the room where the boss is, they could offer different loot.
- There could be a long-time achievement to beat every possibility, granting every boss as little pet and finally a mount or something.

Yes it would get stale after while probably too. But with its variations, different loot and decision-making, the whole dungeon could even surprise any player after its 100 run. For those who wants a challenge, the dungeon could offer some voting in the beginning like "normal, hard, expert" difficulty too.

EDIT: Maybe you´ll even get some tokens each run. With 10 tokens you could buy a map to activate once. This will show you all boss rooms in your next run. (Just for those who wants to finish that achievement without hoping for tons of RNG factors.)

Just a brainstorming idea, but i´m pretty sure, that it would fit well into FF14 and it´s not so poor implemented like the 200 level of i can´t remember the name right now.


I would like to see, that SE brings some ideas from games like SWTOR or TERA into FF14. And of course i would like to see some random encounters with a bunch of loot, different bosses and challenges like i´ve mentioned in my last idea. Pretty much everything would be better than the current wall to wall bang followed by "i can ignore any mechanic" - bosses. Thx for reading.

[Jirah]

A major thing is
ROLE RESPONSIBILITIES!
Most of the 80s can be done with the same method and same song a dance, idiots call this “if it ain’t broke don’t fix it” I call it “bastardization” here are some ideas which may or may not be good but I’ll share them anyways

Healers: get the easy one out of the way, healers probably have the most fun in dungeons but from time to time their tanks are just too tough and you either spam aoes or spam your whole kit on the tank and no one else. Potent debuffs keep healers on their toes such as stackable poisons or frostbites, NOT electrocution in Gaunltet because it’s so undertuned and non threatening and short your better off just healing thru it. Have DPS get hit by pseudo tank busters like in Temple of the fist. Have trash mobs do aoe damage, and target others for a change. Even if healers have the most responsibilities theirs still ways to have it be more engaging, but suggestions are benign I rather not give a singular healer too much to do.

Tanks: after the aggro diversion nerf in SHB, tanks turned into lesser DPS. They used to be leaders of the instance, guiding the trash and the party to safety but the corridors of bland bowling pin mobs make W2W the only engaging option and even that’s not fun. Put roamers back like in Hakkue manor, or Aurum Vale so the tank has to navigate again, have random spawns so the tank needs to keep a eye on changing events, terrible example would be anamesis anyder where the first room seemed like a wave mechanic affair where the tanks need to pick up the random mobs…but was so poorly executed it feels like a glorified waiting room. Another major thing is have mobs do a lot more damage! The game isn’t designed to be W2W and should only be doable under very strategic circumstances…but here we are ..all 80s dungeons can be done this way. Have mobs do more vital damage and spells that can be interrupted and stunned, have mobs get their own mechanics like tethers and spreads to spice it up. And bring back some cleaves so positioning matters again, have hazards so you can’t just park your mobs anywhere. Hazards like traps and turrets like in Doma castle or artillery like in Ala Migho. (Stupid character limit) 1/2

[Jirah]

2/2

DPS: yes even the DPS needs some engagement, for god sakes have DPS checks again both benign and vital. Benign being Castrum Albania with the capsules, or the Golems in The Well. And vital being Wanderers palace or have a mob do huge splash damage if not killed fast enough. Have prioritized targets like in Lost City of Ampdapor, or Sunken temple if y’all remember final sting, I’ve mentioned mechanics before but with DPS have them worry about stuff like inner and outer circle aoes, mobs buffs that can be interrupted, or spells like Banish III in Pharos which back then Murdered the Party but can be burned so quickly it’s ignored. Have projectiles like in Puppets bunker final rooms, which was probably the highlight of the whole instance but minimized for a 4 man. Have intractable again like in Stone vigil or Keeper of the lake.



Bosses: for a long time bosses were the only good thing about a dungeon now in SHB they can’t even be bothered to redeem them. Or maybe the instances is so bland that they just can’t compare. I mean they run the same formula. First a raid wide, a tank buster that hits like a child, probably a stack marker and a aoe to dodge how many bosses did I describe? Even those with more mechanics have them so superficially displayed like Plain weirdness (Anamensis Anyder) or Buffet (Relict) that they are ignored completely. Have the routine be randomized, and if enrages are too harmful for the children why not add more mechanics and reward players for burning the boss then to learn new mechs? Though I’m just brainstorming ,the best 3 examples of bosses in dungeons are; The Griffon (Baelsar’s Wall) Mist Dragon (The Burn) and Zu (Pharos Sirius)

The Griffon ties all 3 roles handsomely, a blatant and dirty tank buster to CD on, plenty of aoe damage for healers, prioritized targets with the swords and the collar, and classic look away and knockback mechanics. Very simple fight but incredibly effective.

Mist dragon is amazing, with puddles, non vital unique dps check which freezes players halting their burn and a high as hell debuff in frostbite not to mention all the freezing going around after which requires someone to break you free. With all sprouts It’s a good time as it balances the roles well.

Zu does something daring, gives DPS power! If they kill all the eggs Zu will kill all of you and it’s up to them to strike a balance. If you leave them to hatch they’ll cause a mans crisis with how much the healer needs to focus. And flying press is no joke. It’s a simpler premise but any boss that gives DPS so much responsibility in this era of hand holding is a A+ Honorable mention to King Tomberry.

[Lyth]

I think that a good dungeon tells a story. I liked how Praetorium did this when I was starting up. You've got a nice build-up towards the final boss fight with some recognizable villains. The vehicular section was fun at the time, especially for the FF6 nostalgia. It also needs atmosphere. Haukke, Gubal, and Antitower are good examples of using music, interesting visual elements, and even hidden lore snippets in book piles to add to the experience.

It's harder to create an interesting boss fight under the constraints of a dungeon, because you only get to fit a couple of mechanics into an encounter. Demon Wall (AK) was probably the most memorable dungeon fight for ARR players, given its difficulty at the time and its reputation from prior entries in the FF series. While it's mechanically quite simple, I think part of what made it interesting (and what made the later variations less so) was the fact that you could fall off and be removed from the fight. How would I improve on it? Bring it back in the next Hildebrand questline in a spoof dungeon. Might as well put the Trust system to good use. If we can't see other players get flung off into bottomless pits, at least we can have some NPCs do it for us.

I think the downside of bringing in big ticket fights into dungeons is that you end up devaluing the encounter. Lahabrea and Igeyorhm is a fight that could have had a lot more potential if it wasn't stuffed into the tail end of the Aetherochemical Research Facility, for example. That's the sort of thing that deserves to be its own trial or raid encounter. But maybe Pandaemonium will fix this and produce some high quality Ascian showdowns.

My favorite dungeon experience is the original Wanderer's Palace. When you go back to ARR dungeons, it's amazing to see how even having simple branches in dungeon layouts really opens it up and makes the space feel less like a corridor. I don't care if I never pull a particular pack of mobs. That's fine. It likely takes all of five minutes to create a second branch path with an equivalent set of mobs. And the giant Tonberry Stalkers hunting you down created a sense of urgency as you went around looking for oil to unlock the route forward.

I would love to see this mechanic implemented in the next Deep Dungeon. I've always loved Persona 3's Tartarus climb, with the Reaper showing up when you dally too long in any particular floor. Can you imagine it? You're on B87 in the gloomy basements of Wanderer's Palace, when you get a floor with a darkness debuff that blacks out everything except for a small circle of lamplight around you. You spend a few minutes looking around for oil to open the exit door. A lamp quietly lights behind you, glinting off a sharpened knife. It's a giant Tonberry stalker! Frantic pursuit ensues. It would be the best.

The dungeon that I have the most hopes for next expansion is Phantom Train. FF7 had a fantastic section where you had to stop a runaway train while on a timer. I hope we see some sort of homage to that. I also hope that Pandaemonium ends up being a properly explorable dungeon-like zone, complete with a final save point before the end raid boss. If you're going to pull a Final Fantasy end game, you have to do it right.