Endwalker Main Scenario Commentary & Feedback

[Iscah]

Wouldn’t it just be simpler to just accept that Alexander and Endwalker causal loop time travel while G’raha Tia in ShadowBringers does multiverse-theory (a la Future Trunks in DBZ) time travel. And therefore just assume that Exarch!G’raha’s timeline had a slightly different history even before the 8th Umbral Calamity?

That is basically what I "accept" already, though? G'raha's actions bring about a multiverse-style splitting of timelines despite all other examples so far resulting in causal loops in a single timeline. (Though I am not familiar enough with DBZ to know how that timeline originated exactly.)

The key thing is, there was only one timeline until the events of Shadowbringers caused it to diverge into one path that leads to the Eighth Calamity and a second path that does not. The second path could not have formed if G'raha did not come back from the future of the first path, but now they are simply equal paths for history to take.

I feel like it's something that is actually quite simple but in a way that is hard to explain, especially if people have a fundamentally different concept of how time works.

[Theozilla]

That is basically what I "accept" already, though? G'raha's actions bring about a multiverse-style splitting of timelines despite all other examples so far resulting in causal loops in a single timeline. (Though I am not familiar enough with DBZ to know how that timeline originated exactly.)

The key thing is, there was only one timeline until the events of Shadowbringers caused it to diverge into one path that leads to the Eighth Calamity and a second path that does not. The second path could not have formed if G'raha did not come back from the future of the first path, but now they are simply equal paths for history to take.

I feel like it's something that is actually quite simple but in a way that is hard to explain, especially if people have a fundamentally different concept of how time works.

Oh well, I was under the impression that there was frustration that FFXIV has two different types of time travel existing within the same narrative.
Also Exarch!G’raha’s original timeline doesn’t just diverge from the new one (our main timeline) in regards to the future. Because of Endwalker, Exarch!G’raha’s timeline also has to have a slightly different past as well since it never had its WoL travel back in time to do a causal loop, because the WoL was dead (and the 8th Umbral Calamity occurred instead of the second Final Days occurring), so therefore the Hydaelyn of that timeline still sundered the original world even without having met the WoL in Elpis.

[Iscah]

Because of Endwalker, Exarch!G’raha’s timeline also has to have a slightly different past as well since it never had its WoL travel back in time to do a causal loop, because the WoL was dead

This is where things get really wibbly-wobbly-timey-wimey but very simple if you have the right picture in mind.

Our "other self" from the Eighth Calamity timeline does not need to travel back in time at all, and in fact would confuse things for our side of the time divergence if they did. The time loop only happens on our side.

Although the starting point for our time travel trip is after the two timelines diverge, our destination is before the split. What we do there affects "the past of both timelines simultaneously" because they aren't separate things yet.

Therefore it is our presence in Elpis, and ours alone, that is experienced and remembered by the people there.

(Or to look at it another way, if our other self somehow did make it to Elpis prior to their untimely demise, they would be arriving in the same Elpis that we visited ourselves. There is no alternate version of those events.)

[EdwinLi]

This is where things get really wibbly-wobbly-timey-wimey but very simple if you have the right picture in mind.

Our "other self" from the Eighth Calamity timeline does not need to travel back in time at all, and in fact would confuse things for our side of the time divergence if they did. The time loop only happens on our side.

Although the starting point for our time travel trip is after the two timelines diverge, our destination is before the split. What we do there affects "the past of both timelines simultaneously" because they aren't separate things yet.

Therefore it is our presence in Elpis, and ours alone, that is experienced and remembered by the people there.

(Or to look at it another way, if our other self somehow did make it to Elpis prior to their untimely demise, they would be arriving in the same Elpis that we visited ourselves. There is no alternate version of those events.)

In my opinion it is one of those "aboslute point" moments in both timelines but when it happens varies based on events that happened before that absolute point. Absolute points in time is the theory that is said to always happen no matter what a person does but when, how, why, and where it happens varies based on actions since a person will only be able to delay or accelorate the absolute point.

Both will have a version of WoL that appears on Elpis with the same appearance but which version of WoL appears is different.

In G'raha timeline, it is most likely a future version of WoL that is more complete because by then the Ascians have rejoined more shards at that point. It will be this version of WoL who confronts Emet, defeats him, and spark the events of the Final Days in this timeline.

In WoL's timeline, it is our WoL because G'raha actions in changing events of the timeline accelorated events to be sooner.

[Iscah]

In my opinion it is one of those "aboslute point" moments in both timelines but when it happens varies based on events that happened before that absolute point. Absolute points in time is the theory that is said to always happen no matter what a person does but when, how, why, and where it happens varies based on actions since a person will only be able to delay or accelorate the absolute point.

Both will have a version of WoL that appears on Elpis with the same appearance but which version of WoL appears is different.

In G'raha timeline, it is most likely a future version of WoL that is more complete because by then the Ascians have rejoined more shards at that point. It will be this version of WoL who confronts Emet, defeats him, and spark the events of the Final Days in this timeline.

In WoL's timeline, it is our WoL because G'raha actions in changing events of the timeline accelorated events to be sooner.

There are no multiple timelines involved in Elpis. Those events are located in time prior to the split between the "bad future" timeline and ours.

When we travel there, it's not "our Elpis" with a second copy left untouched for another WoL to visit. Everything that happens there forms the past of both timelines together, and our actions become part of the other timeline's history as well as ours.

I tried to map it out as a better explanation. This is still rough but I hope it makes sense.

The key thing to get your mind around is, from the perspective of our current timeline, our visit to Elpis occurred in our past – and from the perspective of someone in the bad timeline, our visit (ours specifically, not an alternate self's) is part of their timeline as well. There doesn't need to be a second alternate event.

[Theozilla]

This is where things get really wibbly-wobbly-timey-wimey but very simple if you have the right picture in mind.

Our "other self" from the Eighth Calamity timeline does not need to travel back in time at all, and in fact would confuse things for our side of the time divergence if they did. The time loop only happens on our side.

Although the starting point for our time travel trip is after the two timelines diverge, our destination is before the split. What we do there affects "the past of both timelines simultaneously" because they aren't separate things yet.

Therefore it is our presence in Elpis, and ours alone, that is experienced and remembered by the people there.

(Or to look at it another way, if our other self somehow did make it to Elpis prior to their untimely demise, they would be arriving in the same Elpis that we visited ourselves. There is no alternate version of those events.)

I think that’s an over-complicated way of viewing multiverse-theory time travel. It’s far simpler to assume that the 8th Umbral Calamity timeline is now a separate parallel timeline to the main one, instead of a diverging one. That way allows for the 8th Umbral Calamity timeline to differ from the main universe timeline both past and present, since causal loops require both to work.

[Iscah]

I think that’s an over-complicated way of viewing multiverse-theory time travel. It’s far simpler to assume that the 8th Umbral Calamity timeline is now a separate parallel timeline to the main one, instead of a diverging one. That way allows for the 8th Umbral Calamity timeline to differ from the main universe timeline both past and present, since causal loops require both to work,

I don't see that as being either simpler or clearer. It's just an entirely different take on the mechanics, and it makes less sense to me than the diverging paths. It requires a different chain of events to have the same outcome in Elpis, because the WoL dies before they can perform the equivalent actions that are key to the state of the world they currently live in, instead of just having both timelines share a past and then split apart into copies.

I don't see that as simpler at all. It's far more complicated.

[Theozilla]

I don't see that as being either simpler or clearer. It's just an entirely different take on the mechanics, and it makes less sense to me than the diverging paths. It requires a different chain of events to have the same outcome in Elpis, because the WoL dies before they can perform the equivalent actions that are key to the state of the world they currently live in, instead of just having both timelines share a past and then split apart into copies.

I don't see that as simpler at all. It's far more complicated.

I view it as simpler because a separate parallel timeline allows the Eighth Umbral Calamity timeline to have its own past that isn’t dependent on the actions of a casual loop that half-originates in an alternate timeline. Especially when said Elpis causal loop can only exist because of the time travel changes Exarch!G’raha caused to create the new main universe timeline.

[Alleo]

I view it as simpler because a separate parallel timeline allows the Eighth Umbral Calamity timeline to have its own past that isn’t dependent on the actions of a casual loop that half-originates in an alternate timeline. Especially when said Elpis causal loop can only exist because of the time travel changes Exarch!G’raha caused to create the new main universe timeline.

Thats my problem with it too. (I really dont like time traveling, it just dont really make sense to me...and now we have different versions of possible time travel on top) Elpis how we saw it can only happen because we travel into the past. Us traveling into the past is only possible because Elidibus used his soul to empower the crystal tower..also we only do it because Venat gave us a hint with the Elpis flower. We cant do any of those because in the bad timeline we are death and Elidibus still alive.

So for it to make sense (in my opinion) Venat must have done the exact same thing even without us there.

Take the bad future out and everything makes sense. But with that in the picture it just doesnt get in my head how its possible. But thats probably on me.