Thread: 1.22 - 1.22a - 1.22b changes

Ace, your answer to the fix being VIT and block is part of the problem, I think. Warrior primary stats are STR & VIT. Two things a tanks that holds hate with dps based skills absolutely need. Paladin gets STR and MND. A meat shield should have stats of DEX as it increases shield skills (as noted by in game tool tips) and VIT, to increase HP and damage mitigation. In effect, warrior is 2/2 with their primary stat, and paladin is 0/2. I understand MND increase enimity with ONE combo (flat) and maybe let's you do 5 damage to the boss you're fight instead of 4, but that just isnt enough.

MND does not increase amount healed on paladin (proven), it also does not effect enmity on phalnex/spirits combo, flash, provoke, or war drum.

STR on a turtle style tank as primary stat is a joke for obvious reasons.

Never mind the skills and DPS that help warrior shine, paladin is obviously at a huge disadvantage from go.

That is just my logical take on it.

Originally Posted by Aceofspades

lol your right , wait a tic, GLA.... is gladiator PLD? Nooo that cant be right , maybe thats why when you change to PLD ( a completly diffrent job) your HP gose down and mp gose up

Which is a problem that the devs have stated an intention to fix shortly, and therefore an unintended mistake and a moot point.

Sauce:

Originally Posted by Bayohne

Even though we just released patch 1.22, I’d like to talk a bit about the plans for job/class balance adjustments that are to take place in patch 1.22b.

Paladin and Gladiator

We will be getting rid of the max HP reduction when changing from gladiator to paladin and as a result will be making adjustments to increase their max HP. Additionally, we will be enhancing shield blocks.

Also, take note of the way that they put this change under the heading "Paladin AND Gladiator." Like EVERY other job in the game, Paladin shares its formulas with its respective class, which is Gladiator in the case of Paladins. So to answer your question (even though it was sarcastically rhetorical), is Paladin a completely different job from Gladiator? No, it's the exact same job (at least when it comes to stats and attributes, which is what you're arguing about). Again, you're just digging yourself deeper. Quit while you're... well... while you're not as behind as you could be.

Next, take note of the two things that they're focusing on fixing for Paladins in this patch: Blocks and HP, being the two fundamentals of a meat shield, which are tied to DEX and VIT respectively. Even though those are obviously the two most important aspects of a meat shield, the fact that these fixes are planned would indicate that Paladins are actually experiencing a deficiency in those areas, when they should be the two areas that Paladins excel the most in. Why is this happening? It's happening because the game is encouraging Paladins to cap their STR and MND first, before thinking about VIT and DEX. All that Waldo is saying is that these problems wouldn't exist if those two important tanking stats, DEX and VIT for Block and HP, were simply patched to be Paladin's primary stats over STR and MND. It seems like an obvious solution, and nobody's saying that STR and MND shouldn't still be important to Paladins. They should remain important. They just shouldn't be the first stats that we're encouraged to cap.

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I understand what you mean when you wonder why Paladins are choosing STR and MND over VIT and DEX to begin with. After all, STR affects damage and MND affects heals, neither of which is a primary focus for tanking when compared to blocks, defense, and HP. However there are a lot of things to consider here:

(1) Your allocated attributes as a party-focused Paladin get locked into your solo-focused Gladiator class as well, and nobody wants to end up soloing as a pure turtle with no damage-dealing capabilities. (2) While damage from STR doesn't help with survivability, any boost in damage helps with generating a little boost in Enmity, which is also important to a tank. That's not to mention a boost in kill speed as well, which is always desirable for any class. If a paladin wants to stack VIT instead of STR in order to grab some extra tank survivability, then they end up sacrificing enmity generation and kill speed as a result. WAR is not faced with these dilemmas. Both VIT and STR provide them with all of the above. Not only does this remove any need for them to choose between enmity and kill speed or survivability, but it also ends up doublingthe effectiveness that they gain in all of the above areas. (3) Practically the same thing, but with MND. MND affects our damage, and the enmity generated by our enmity combos like flat blade. We're forced into yet ANOTHER decision between kill speed and enmity or survivabilty. Why should we be forced TWICE into to choosing between extra enmity and kill speed via MND and/or STR, and extra survivability via VIT and/or DEX, when WAR doesn't have to choose between anything at all? Everything about a WAR is handed to them all at once, with everything being tied into the two stats of STR and VIT, period.

So to resolve your confusion, Paladins are choosing MND and STR over VIT and DEX for a couple of reasons. One is that it keeps Gladiator as a viable option for solo play. The other is that it's the only way for Paladins to compete with the enmity generation and kill speed of Warriors. If you can't compete with Warriors in these areas, then (A) you won't be able to keep hate off of Warriors anymore, so Warriors will just end up tanking anyway, and (B) nobody will invite you to begin with because you'll slow them down more than a Warrior. So if you want to have a chance in hell at tanking, then you need to stack your STR and MND first, or at least one of the two (most likely being MND for the added bonus of Holy Succor potency). Survivability is an afterthought until you can secure yourself a position in a party and maintain a high enough level of threat to actually tank.

Originally Posted by Raymeo

So to resolve your confusion, Paladins are choosing MND and STR over VIT and DEX for a couple of reasons. One is that it keeps Gladiator as a viable option for solo play. The other is that it's the only way for Paladins to compete with the enmity generation and kill speed of Warriors. If you can't compete with Warriors in these areas, then (A) you won't be able to keep hate off of Warriors anymore, so Warriors will just end up tanking anyway, and (B) nobody will invite you to begin with because you'll slow them down more than a Warrior. So if you want to have a chance in hell at tanking, then you need to stack your STR and MND first, or at least one of the two (most likely being MND for the added bonus of Holy Succor potency). Survivability is an afterthought until you can secure yourself a position in a party and maintain a high enough level of threat to actually tank.

QFT.

Can't agree more on those points. PLD have nothing to offer atm over WAR. If I'm stuck with both a WAR and PLD in same PT for say..Ifrit, I'd let the WAR tank and the PLD "dd"

Why is it that everyone here can see where Gla/Pld falls short in comparison to War except for you Aceofspades? There wasn't even a sentence or phrase where I said Pld could not do anything right...War although like everyone else sees....does it better in nearly every respect. The only elitist here is you. Every single thread you have something "butt hurt" as you call it to say about how lame everyone else is, where as everyone else here has something to contribute while still being able to acknowledge points of interest in a calm and objective manner. As far as striking a nerve I would have to say your wrong, although if hitting a nerve means getting tired of you being an arrogant, self righteous, condescending, blatantly narrow minded toad to others and their thoughts on a subject then yea I guess you did.*/clap* You clearly never understood what I was getting at

If they made corresponding jobs get a amplified boost from certain attributes I think it would help a lot with job class uniqueness. for Example Pd/Gla would get a boost from how potent VIT would affect def, hp pool, dmg received from ws's. All hypothetical, but I think something like that would help a fair bit given that other classes got a unique trait boost that was relevant to the class.

The fact that Pld does have to choose between attributes is where pld falls greatly short like you said Raymeo. Why pick a tank that can only do one of these things well, when a different class can do it equally as well and still offer something more to the table. Why pick apples or oranges when I can have a fruit salad.

Overall, with some luck 1.22b will help balance things out between all the classes. But until then hopefully the Devs pick up on at least one or few of these ideas they could roll with for Gla/Pld in the future to help balance things out.

edit added:
I do agree with you Tango, I'm hoping with the next patch that like you say and as Devs have hinted at that they do adjust the overall tanking performance of Pld and War. But if it isn't anything relatively drastic/moderate I still feel people will still prefer War for tanking which would be disappointing.