Removal of Piety and Tenacity for Endwalker

[Timmyftw]

This is only problematic because tanks are still allowed to meld dhit. If tanks were not allowed to meld dhit, then Tenacity would be evaluated based on its own merit rather than on its deficiency compared to dhit, and there would be no problem.

Whether you like it or not... You take away direct hit from tanks and they'll meld critical, take that away and they'll end up melding determination or skill speed.
This is an aggressive circle of nerfs that would piss off a lot of players.

[Rongway]

Whether you like it or not... You take away direct hit from tanks and they'll meld critical, take that away and they'll end up melding determination.
This is an aggressive circle of nerfs that would piss off a lot of players.

We are not talking about taking away crit or determination. We're talking about taking away the one stat clearly intended to be used by DDs. Tanks are only ignoring the one stat intended for them because they are allowed to meld the DD-only stat and benefit from it.

Tanks and DDs are allowed to meld the healer-only stat, Piety, but get no benefit from it. DDs and healers are allowed to meld the tank-only stat, tenacity, but get no benefit from it. The only problems that would arise from making it so that tanks and healers do not benefit from melding the DD-only stat would be contrived.

If tenacity is still not worth melding after dhit becomes a DD-only stat, then fix tenacity.

[Timmyftw]

We are not talking about taking away crit or determination. We're talking about taking away the one stat clearly intended to be used by DDs. Tanks are only ignoring the one stat intended for them because they are allowed to meld the DD-only stat and benefit from it.

So you're suggesting to disallow tanks to meld Direct Hit, Critical, Detemination, or Skill Speed?
Taking away Direct Hit does nothing to solve the issue, similar to how taking away Strength did nothing to solve the issue.
Would you prefer every tank to meld only Tenacity? That would essentially take away any type of materia customization for tanks.
With your suggestion, we'd cause a lot of players to quit.

Like I said, You take away Direct Hit and they'll meld the next best damage dealing stat.

[Rongway]

So you're suggesting to disallow tanks to meld Direct Hit, Critical, Detemination, or Skill Speed?
Taking away Direct Hit does nothing to solve the issue, similar to how taking away Strength did nothing to solve the issue.
Would you prefer every tank to meld only Tenacity? That would essentially take away any type of materia customization for tanks.
With your suggestion, we'd cause a lot of players to quit.

You are purposely jumping to the most absurd possible interpretation. Stop.

One more time.

We. Are. Talking. About. Tenacity vs direct hit.

If your only criticism of my suggestion is that it's a slippery slope, you are purposely trying to be antagonistic.

I never argued for any of the following:

• Remove crit from tanks.
• Remove det from tanks.
• Remove skill speed from tanks.
• Tanks should only meld tenacity

I said:

• If tanks were not allowed to meld dhit, then Tenacity would be evaluated based on its own merit rather than on its deficiency compared to dhit,
• or it would be evaluated based on its deficiency compared to determination,
• and they would choose whichever increased their DPS more
• Tanks are only ignoring the one stat intended for them because they are allowed to meld the DD-only stat and benefit from it.
• If tenacity is still not worth melding after dhit becomes a DD-only stat, then fix tenacity.

[Timmyftw]

We. Are. Talking. About. Tenacity vs direct hit.

What you're suggesting does not fix anything except nerf tanks. It does not help in any way. All it does is reduce the value of Direct Hit.
Even Healers meld Direct Hit, so it would still be an issue if you focused on nerfing tanks.

[Ultimatecalibur]

Whether you like it or not... You take away direct hit from tanks and they'll meld critical, take that away and they'll end up melding determination or skill speed.
This is an aggressive circle of nerfs that would piss off a lot of players.

The gap between Det and Ten is actually incredibly small. The difference between +1.5k Det vs +1.5k Tenacity is ~1.25% damage in exchange for 4.5% mitigation. This is a small enough gap that people might end up choosing to meld Tenacity if diminishing returns shrinks the gap enough.

Direct Hit is problematic because it is 1440 points of secondary stats (an additional 5.975% increase in damage) not suffering from diminishing returns due to starting from 380. In comparison, +1440 Det from 340 would be an 5.6% increase in damage and +1440 Tenacity is a 4.3% increase in damage. Crit is the only thing that has a comparative damage increase (6%) and that requires starting at 2030 Crit due to the fact that Critical Hit factors twice (Crit rate and Crit multiplier) into the damage formula.

[elioaiko]

You are purposely jumping to the most absurd possible interpretation. Stop.

One more time.

We. Are. Talking. About. Tenacity vs direct hit.[/list]

I'm sure the issue is that no matter what tanks and healers will meld the next best stat for DPS regardless. Unless SE makes Tenacity and Piety give damage increases, it will always be Direct Hit. If you take DH out the picture, say only for DPS jobs then Determination will be the next preferred stat.

In the end, SE either needs to change what Ten/Pie does in general to make them matter. As it stands, they're pretty useless after prog. The game revolves around killing as fast as possible. That is the best damage mitigation. The faster something is dead, the less mitatigion/healing is needed. Plenty of other video games have this issue too. Doing the most damage will always be endgame stat. It doesn't matter if you can take more hits or GCD heal more because a good tank will properly map their CDs and good healers will have something to cover for that damage.

IMO, they should just change/remove Tenacity/Piety and embrace DH. Also I'll repeat something I said early, let heals have direct hit as well. It's so weird that heals go either crit or none.

[Timmyftw]

The gap between Det and Ten is actually incredibly small. The difference between +1.5k Det vs +1.5k Tenacity is ~1.25% damage in exchange for 4.5% mitigation. This is a small enough gap that people might end up choosing to meld Tenacity if diminishing returns shrinks the gap enough.

Direct Hit is problematic because it is 1440 points of secondary stats (an additional 5.975% increase in damage) not suffering from diminishing returns due to starting from 380. In comparison, +1440 Det from 340 would be an 5.6% increase in damage and +1440 Tenacity is a 4.3% increase in damage. Crit is the only thing that has a comparative damage increase (6%) and that requires starting at 2030 Crit due to the fact that Critical Hit factors twice (Crit rate and Crit multiplier) into the damage formula.

So even at the extremes... Tenacity is a broken stat. To think that Determination would be a valuable meld to min/max is quite a far ways, but the point remains.

In addition to the stat crunch, if they are lowering overall stats, they would have to lower the soft cap for diminishing returns.
Otherwise the benefit to melding a damage dealing stat would only improve.

[linayar]

There are just too many stats as it is.

They just need four:

Power (strength/dexterity/intelligence/mind/determination/attack power/attack magic potency/healing magic potency)

Defense (vitality/defense/magic defense/tenacity/piety)

Speed (skillspeed/spellspeed)

Hit Rate (critical hit/direct hit rate)

They can also remove materia melding, but if they want to keep it, only make speed and hit rate be meldable while power and defense are static on each gear.

[Jaelommiss]

The real issue is that damage is all that matters. Unless the combat system is fundamentally overhauled to make other factors relevant all materia decisions will boil down to what maximizes dps.

If MP efficiency mattered at all then piety would be worth something. Personally I'd like to see MP be a healer's limiting resource like in older MMOs. Offensive spells would need to be free to avoid the issue of healers idling to conserve MP. Low MP costs on oGCDs, higher MP costs on GCDs, and some interaction between healing abilities to increase HP per MP efficiency would go a long way to making MP management feel important.

If miniscule damage reduction mattered at all then tenacity would be worth something. Almost 3700 tenacity is needed to get -10% damage reduction. Even if both tanks' tenacity was combined and applied to the entire party it wouldn't contribute anything that couldn't be done with a single mitigation CD. This game's tendency towards large, infrequent damage means that mitigation CDs are always available and that small, passive mitigation has little value. Coupled with unlimited and cheap healing from healers tenacity simply doesn't give anything apart from a subpar damage increase. Heavily stacking tenacity won't save a healer a GCD.