Removal of Piety and Tenacity for Endwalker

[Penthea]

It’s hard to know how much piety is really necessary. All my healing sets this xpan have been stacked with piety. Right now, I have 2000 piety without any piety materia or using food. I really don’t need that much at all, but since there’s so much on the gear already I never need to use the materia.

I feel like all the pie on the gear this tier is to prevent healers from having super high numbers. I had 200 less pie last tier and it didn't cause me any problems. We're not getting so much pie on gear because we need it, it's so we get less of the other attributes. It's the only logical reason I can think of.

Sure the extra pie is nice if you're in a situation like solo healing but SE doesn't balance content around having one healer in 8 man content given most people do not have a team like that.

As for tenacity I don't know. I know very little about that stat. I just know it's not super popular.

[Timmyftw]

OP here, I play mainly healer AND tank. (whm, astro, drk, pld) All of which I've built to have the lowest piety and tenacity possible.
I don't have any issues with MP regen or not being able to 'tank' new content. Just time your mp regen and defensive mitigation accordingly.
Even in savage or ultimate, if 2 or 3 people die, it usually leads to failing a dps check. Something I have very little control of anyways on these roles.
With raises... swiftcast is 60 second cooldown, by the time it's cooled-down you'll likely have some form of MP regen ability up again.
If you're hard casting a raise... someone messed up badly, and the whole party will lose DPS regardless of how much mp you have.
I have seen waaay more pugs (pick up groups) that can't even pass dps checks than I have seen healers or tanks that can't play their role.
But this is coming from someone at end game, not actively leveling.

[Nethereal]

Piety has its place because as long as you're alive it's always working where as tenacity rates are both bad and it doesn't work unless you're taking damage.

OP here, I play mainly healer AND tank. (whm, astro, drk, pld) All of which I've built to have the lowest piety and tenacity possible.
I don't have any issues with MP regen or not being able to 'tank' new content.

That's nice, not everyone can do that.

Just time your mp regen and defensive mitigation accordingly.

New fights = new timings you basically just said gitgud.

Even in savage or ultimate, if 2 or 3 people die, it usually leads to failing a dps check. Something I have very little control of anyways on these roles.

I guess we don't want to prog and see mechanics anyway since we're just going to wipe to enrage since we're so shit.

With raises... swiftcast is 60 second cooldown, by the time it's cooled-down you'll likely have some form of MP regen ability up again.
If you're hard casting a raise... someone messed up badly, and the whole party will lose DPS regardless of how much mp you have.

I guess we don't want to prog and see mechanics anyway since we're going to wipe to enrage since we're so shit. Oh you want a hard cast? Nah fam I don't roll like that.

I have seen waaay more pugs (pick up groups) that can't even pass dps checks than I have seen healers or tanks that can't play their role.
But this is coming from someone at end game, not actively leveling.

Pugs are pugs.

All in all I think you've either never done content when it was relevant before guides came out or you're more a of a green/blue dps. I understand not liking tenacity because it's essentially useless but knocking piety like that when it has its place? I don't think you're looking at the whole picture nor do you understand the relevance of prog based on how you're talking about not ressing people if you can't make a dps check.

[ZedxKayn]

OP here, I play mainly healer AND tank. (whm, astro, drk, pld) All of which I've built to have the lowest piety and tenacity possible.
I don't have any issues with MP regen or not being able to 'tank' new content. Just time your mp regen and defensive mitigation accordingly.
Even in savage or ultimate, if 2 or 3 people die, it usually leads to failing a dps check. Something I have very little control of anyways on these roles.
With raises... swiftcast is 60 second cooldown, by the time it's cooled-down you'll likely have some form of MP regen ability up again.
If you're hard casting a raise... someone messed up badly, and the whole party will lose DPS regardless of how much mp you have.
I have seen waaay more pugs (pick up groups) that can't even pass dps checks than I have seen healers or tanks that can't play their role.
But this is coming from someone at end game, not actively leveling.

Piety cannot be equated in it's function with tenacity. Piety is a lot more important. You can meld 0 TEN and be perfectly fine regardless of the content you're doing and the party you're with because of how the attribute works. Piety though? Not so much. You don't see "meld ten to comfort" thrown around like "meld piety to comfort". Piety to comfort is a lot more important than ANY other stat, because when you're standing around out of MP for even a Malefic after having raised 3~4 people, you're going to lose a lot more DPS than by having that extra CRT or DH meld. It's about knowing your environment, ie you won't need PIE if you're in a good static, or if you're playing with a RDM or SMN, or if you're done progging, and such.
Regardless of SC- if someone dies, you lose DPS, period, regardless of if you're hardcasting the raise or not. I don't see what this has to do with PIE. Also, you don't "time" the actions that give MP back, you use them on cooldown.

[Rongway]

Piety, Tenacity, and Direct Hit should just be consolidated into a single Expertise stat that is all yellow materia. Then it can have the dhit effect for DD jobs, the piety effect for healers, and a tenacity effect for tanks.

The real problem with tenacity is not just that it's ineffective. It's that it's ineffective and tanks can choose to meld direct hit instead. Consolidating the three stats into Expertise would remove the ability for anyone to meld the off-role stat at all--a step further than the current piety, which can wrongly still be melded by non-healers even though it does nothing for them. Then Tenacity can be recalibrated without having to compare its benefits against dhit.

[Nethereal]

Piety, Tenacity, and Direct Hit should just be consolidated into a single Expertise stat that is all yellow materia. Then it can have the dhit effect for DD jobs, the piety effect for healers, and a tenacity effect for tanks.

The real problem with tenacity is not just that it's ineffective. It's that it's ineffective and tanks can choose to meld direct hit instead. Consolidating the three stats into Expertise would remove the ability for anyone to meld the off-role stat at all--a step further than the current piety, which can wrongly still be melded by non-healers even though it does nothing for them. Then Tenacity can be recalibrated without having to compare its benefits against dhit.

That does sounds like a good idea and then fights could be balanced appropriately without tanks/healers melding DH it also falls in line with the removal of stat materia.

[Rongway]

Piety, Tenacity, and Direct Hit should just be consolidated into a single Expertise stat that is all yellow materia. Then it can have the dhit effect for DD jobs, the piety effect for healers, and a tenacity effect for tanks.

The real problem with tenacity is not just that it's ineffective. It's that it's ineffective and tanks can choose to meld direct hit instead. Consolidating the three stats into Expertise would remove the ability for anyone to meld the off-role stat at all--a step further than the current piety, which can wrongly still be melded by non-healers even though it does nothing for them. Then Tenacity can be recalibrated without having to compare its benefits against dhit.

[1]Believe this would not be favorable for a lot of raiding players.
Raiders tend do what they can to squeeze in extra dps in relevant content.
There was a time when tanks use to meld Strength and they took that away from us, making DH the next best option.


[2]Direct Hit in general helps Tanks maintain their enmity due to increased dps.
If two similar item level tanks are both generating enmity, the one with Direct Hit melded can and will steal the main aggression spot from a raid boss.

What you're describing are non-issues.

1a) This is only problematic because tanks are still allowed to meld dhit. If tanks were not allowed to meld dhit, then Tenacity would be evaluated based on its own merit rather than on its deficiency compared to dhit, and there would be no problem, or

1b) it would be evaluated based on its deficiency compared to determination, and they would choose whichever increased their DPS more, and there would still be no problem related to losing DPS from being forced to meld tenacity over dhit


2a) No tank needs to do more damage to maintain aggro. Tank stance has a 10x enmity multiplier and can be freely turned on or off, and there is never a damage gap so wide that a DD will ever do ten times as much damage and rip aggro off a tank who is doing minimally competent DPS, nor is it likely they would catch up while a competent tank is self-throttling their enmity gain by periodically dropping tank stance.

"But a good DD can still catch up to a bad tank if they turn off their stance!" We're not talking about bad tanks. If we're discussing tenacity vs dhit, we're 100% discussing competent, end-game players because that's the only population in which it matters that they eke out the extra damage from taking dhit over tenacity.

2b) If dhit were not meldable, then tanks would choose between tenacity and determination, whichever one increased their DPS more, so still no problem.


Make dhit a DD only stat.

[Timmyftw]

This is only problematic because tanks are still allowed to meld dhit. If tanks were not allowed to meld dhit, then Tenacity would be evaluated based on its own merit rather than on its deficiency compared to dhit, and there would be no problem.

Whether you like it or not... You take away direct hit from tanks and they'll meld critical, take that away and they'll end up melding determination or skill speed.
This is an aggressive circle of nerfs that would piss off a lot of players.

[Rongway]

Whether you like it or not... You take away direct hit from tanks and they'll meld critical, take that away and they'll end up melding determination.
This is an aggressive circle of nerfs that would piss off a lot of players.

We are not talking about taking away crit or determination. We're talking about taking away the one stat clearly intended to be used by DDs. Tanks are only ignoring the one stat intended for them because they are allowed to meld the DD-only stat and benefit from it.

Tanks and DDs are allowed to meld the healer-only stat, Piety, but get no benefit from it. DDs and healers are allowed to meld the tank-only stat, tenacity, but get no benefit from it. The only problems that would arise from making it so that tanks and healers do not benefit from melding the DD-only stat would be contrived.

If tenacity is still not worth melding after dhit becomes a DD-only stat, then fix tenacity.