Necromancer Job Suggestion

[Raikai]

I like the foundation of this concept, but I doubt something like this would be implemented because XIV due to coding reasons, can't seem to make pets work properly in combat situations, promoting to very clunky gameplay.

Unless they somehow manage to overhaul their code in 6.0, I really don't think we'd be seeing pet based jobs like Necromancer or Beastmaster for main game content. On that note, I think they'll also revamp Summoner, because ever since HW the job have been straying away from Egis being compelled to a true pet gameplay.

However, they might make Beastmaster work as a Limited Job with the gameplay focusing around pet collection, another type of pet combat, tournaments, etc.

[Shougun]

While having a rotting corpse raise your grandma to fight in what is some sort of body (or soul) slavery is likely never going to pass (comment not directed at OP)- I as always have to add those who just flat out say it can't happen often are exercising zero creative problem solving and often ignore other parts of the game where questionable stuff happens (sometimes at our own cause) as "well that's that but it's not this so it can't happen until it does" which is eyeroll inducing.

Willing souls, whether angry or benevolent (could be lore in that by expending some of the negative energies of souls you help cleanse the soul sphere, so by using them it's a good thing), could easily work past some of the moral qualms of "irl". The appearance of whatever you're doing could quickly work past issues with China, like working it more to be like wraith / shades or even giving physical form but it be more like spiritual energy tied into 'not zombies' (perhaps cool looking beasts demon-ish looking). Both the first part and the second part can also work through in game lore issues, which other jobs in this game have issues with too where you shouldn't be doing them for whatever reason one group of people have for it (although of course not to as extreme as Necro would). If the NPC have no idea what type of magic you're using then it's just magic to them. Of course if you raise dead grandmas for war, it's obvious. You could even go so far as to say only those with Echo can fully see what you're doing- if you for example work with wraiths and shades, like if you received blessings from Louisoix (technically might have phoenix issues, but whoever good person lol) or the wrath of an angry wife (or husband lol) people would just feel great warmth or the icy terror from beyond but not know what is up because they can't see it.

I could see the job being very noble written if SE wanted, guiding and protecting the resting place for the dead- taking hints from FFX's Yuna sending stuff as well. Of course that'd be just one potential interpretation.

Sure there may be hoops to jump through but there are already hoops most jobs have to go through (lore has to be made no matter what, in almost all cases at least), or one example people make Thief was changed to rogue for the in game city lore and is said to be is Thief for all intent and purpose (can find quotes for this, city making an official guild and trying to turn a new leaf wouldn't open up a thieves guild- makes sense). I keep seeing people reference because of WoL (immoral so therefore WoL can't be one concept, even though we've assassins' and vigilantes and what have you), but "no one" has produced an actual quote on that (so far at least), only the quotes produced I've found myself as well on that talks rather that the city wouldn't make sense to open a thieves guild- and besides if it is or not is ultimately a silly statement given many heroes of the FF series have been straight up thieves (or done things like it, Robinhood like), so I believe people are just passing around rumors and or information that was accidentally contorted (person remembers that they said the city couldn't have it due to logic so SE called it Rogue instead, but through handing the word down from person to person it slowly changed into mis-remembered comment on morals of the WoL).

I find necromancer to be unlikely but a welcome fresh breath in ideas and willingness to experiment in visual and conceptual vibes if it happened, and it does not have to "break" lore to exist (but it certainly will need to accommodate certain concepts, like avoiding body/soul slavery at least of humanoids). Personally would love another dark job, a job that comes at personal risk would be nice- I really liked the Blue Mage quest chain in FFXI. I don't have a particular need for necromancer, I just find the low effort shutdowns with no effort in making it work a bit annoying. Especially as I've seen these sorts of no's fail before, it's not like there is some perfect track record of understanding- it tends to be a biased and inflexible view that is proposed as the one true interpretation until said otherwise by SE and then at that point it's "all okay because SE did it" even though moments before it was impossible and never could ever happen.

You need to go run the story and sidequests again. That's not how death works in this game. Learn the lore before you try to cite it.

EDIT:While we're at it do you have ANY idea what death smells like? Ever been near a rotting corpse? I have. It's horrible. Not something associated with heroes.

Chocobos also smell horrible, as per in game lore. Somehow they've become the main transportation for many :3.

Of course you might add death is specially unpleasant, a bit unfair to compare (my thoughts on being cheeky), but then why wouldn't we just say your magic has held them in a unique form of "in-between" planes which causes them to have muffled smells and sounds (only half present in existence, so half the stench lol). That half presence may even suggest that people hardly notice them, like some books or movies make jokes about magic "non-magic never notice" - only the hyper viglant catching something that should have caught their attention. Or rather than even bother with all that and just use spirits. Unless someone is going for the raise your uncle from the grave to do battle idea (unwilling use of potentially innocent humanoid bodies and souls) all these "but necro can't be" just seem like "I can't be bothered to try and create but I'll say no, because I don't want it, and blame it on the game to make it sound more official".

With the use of spirits you've many different cultures to pull from even, I see many Asian theme'd necromancers. Which have shown up in Japanese games before (can't remember the full name, starts with an O lol).

Perhaps stereotypically people think zombies, but there have been a few popular necromancers that only use spirits or other magics. I remember one of my major necromancer builds in diablo series pretty much never used skeletons, and was more poison, curses, blood, etc.

Even in FFV's Necromancer oath says call forth a random demon- two of which would fit within the wraith / shade part pretty well (The other two not really, skeleton and zombie dragon lol).

Necromancer in it's most basic description is "communes with the dead / otherworld spirits" (which means we already have necromancy in FFXIV, just not the raising the dead as slaves part that many think of). While if you used necromancer with the good side and zero pets you'd have a very not stereotypical necromancer (and probably shouldn't be called one), if you used wraiths and shades and not zombies / skeletons you'd very much be within the video game wheel house of necromancers that have been (especially if you slapped curses or something in there).

All that said I still think your best and most creative bet is to inspire heavily from necromancer but not bother calling it that in the end (saves all this heartache where people fumble over each other to say no before trying to work it out, and allows you more freedom in the end anyways), make a entirely new job that does necromancer things but more. Maybe on the shard that collapsed to darkness you can call the job Necromancer for giggles (just like Ronso / Hroth naming situation).

As for OP I always enjoy reading people trying to create something, so plus for that. Just like it is to SE, for us to them, it's always easier for us to tear down and say no then it is to help create lol.

[Rymi64]

-snip-

When people say we can't have necromancer as a job i think they refering to what most media refer to necromancers as (dead, skeletons) and yea people shut it down without trying to think of a way for it to work. Yoshi-p is the one that said that thief is not really something a hero would be so they made it rogue. I say if one wants a dark job just use the name shaman. Like how thief is the "bad" version of rogue shaman would be the "good" version of necro. Both commune with the departed and would be able to use wraiths and such to fight. Maybe even pull the power of the underworld into themselves like hades. /s

[Shougun]

When people say we can't have necromancer as a job i think they refering to what most media refer to necromancers as (dead, skeletons) and yea people shut it down without trying to think of a way for it to work. Yoshi-p is the one that said that thief is not really something a hero would be so they made it rogue. I say if one wants a dark job just use the name shaman. Like how thief is the "bad" version of rogue shaman would be the "good" version of necro. Both commune with the departed and would be able to use wraiths and such to fight. Maybe even pull the power of the underworld into themselves like hades. /s

I heard people say Yoshi said that but I've not seen anyone actually provide evidence of it. When I looked, for a few hours, and others who were trying to use that against me, I found evidence that he did say that it wouldn't make sense a city would have a thieves guild but there was not comment about the morality of the WoL and how we couldn't be a thief (no one I've confronted who has been using it has been able to spot it, even though I/we could spot the actual lines about why they did what they did which actually has to do with Limsa and logical idea of funding a guild in your city). Like I said makes even less sense given the fact that we've had literally titled thieves as heroes in past FF games, thief actions and stories, and we've assassins and vigilantes in our own game. It's like "stealing is wrong but murder is fine kids, or "as long as you murder them after you steal it's okay"". So I still believe people are mistaking a quote and applying it to Yoshida, as if it was something he said I think it was silly but I have yet to find any actual evidence he said it and only people claiming he did (but they themselves can't find evidence). Not saying it's impossible but having searched for it and seeing no one can provide details on it, and you can find actual quotes that I mentioned about the city but NOT WoL morals, I'm going to say it's most likely a made up quote. Besides they said that Rogue IS Thief (like verbatim, so again it's really a title and city issue not a activity moral issue, because if it was a moral issue it would be even more silly to be like guns are bad but if I give you a sword with a machine gun attached to it then that's totally fine).

"No one said that about FFXIV' - Albert Einstein.

And you're right on the necro part. People think and fix the most basic interpretation (even though games and media have in the past been creative with it, not really using zombies and skeletons sometimes), and then they take the most literal and inflexible view of the lore and find issues with them matching (naturally) but that's not how you actually get stuff done. When people wanted Demi SE found a way, they didn't just go "no egi fo lyfe bois" and they did that by working with their lore rather than seeing it as inflexible concrete that has no means of accommodation. Even with our current lich necro lore in game, there isn't much to say a new shard or hidden school or whatever other wild thing has a different interpretation on said magics and how one might use them (like how Black Mages can be bad and are banned in some ways in the game, but we use it in a good way). Breaking away from the stuff that is clearly gone wrong (PotD lol), and finding means away from that.

I feel bad cause I forgot the name but there is a Japanese shaman that works with spirits too, someone brought it up as a jump point for necromancer possibility - thought it sounded neat.

Would love a dark job that uses transformation, so.. pulling the power of hades actually perked my ears lol - but basing it off of a specific tempered Ascian sounds like a huge hoop to plan around (I notice your /s lol). Could always say you found a way to tap into the anguish of the ancients during the reckoning (hence your transformative, yet dark energy, experience). So not hades but I could see a job that harnesses some sort of trauma energy left behind in the lifestream and at some point in your job you access the "void" (not the void demon void) but the great dark deep depth of terror an entire civilization being wiped out in horror left. So that's where your transformations go from like level 1-50 'okay' to level 60-99 "O.o damn dude" (so like low level Vincent vs high level chaos form Vincent lol). And yes again I know you slapped a /s at the end of it, I choose to run with the idea anyways - I really want a dark transformation job (well transformation in general would be neat but seeing SE's Vincent I feel their dark job on the concept would be amazing).

[Rymi64]

-snip-

I would love a job that could transform as well. Yea you wouldn't be able to base it off hades, but it's possible the concept came to be a thing by itself. Could be someone trained in the ways of DRK got taught techniques from someone that knew about another way to physically enhance yourself with beasts. Or could be a technique from the new world considering the fact that blue mage kinda shares capabilities with summoner only blu works with all mobs instead of just primals.

Not like the concept of transforming job hasn't been a thing before, just go look at ff tactics morpher.

The question is would it work well in an mmo like ff14. We have the ability to transform in deep dungeons but I don't think something like that can work super well in main content since it could lead to ping problems. They could also make it just cosmetic and when you do an ability you briefly transform to attack then change back but would people be ok with that.

[Shougun]

I would love a job that could transform as well. Yea you wouldn't be able to base it off hades, but it's possible the concept came to be a thing by itself. Could be someone trained in the ways of DRK got taught techniques from someone that knew about another way to physically enhance yourself with beasts. Or could be a technique from the new world considering the fact that blue mage kinda shares capabilities with summoner only blu works with all mobs instead of just primals.

Not like the concept of transforming job hasn't been a thing before, just go look at ff tactics morpher.

The question is would it work well in an mmo like ff14. We have the ability to transform in deep dungeons but I don't think something like that can work super well in main content since it could lead to ping problems. They could also make it just cosmetic and when you do an ability you briefly transform to attack then change back but would people be ok with that.

If another thread pops up I'll join in with you more on the idea but I don't want to derail the thread too much .

For morpher I feel like it would make a good limited job idea, and FFXI has it actually as a sort of concept (Monstrosity)- BUuuuUuuuUuuuT I reaaaalllllllyyy wwould like it to be my main job lol or at least the bare minimum be a job that can be solo king. I /personally/ have zero value in PF-exclusive old content concept like blue mage and would prefer not to have another one of my desire-able jobs go into that idea, if it was old content solo king I might actually feel some return in the concept, but I hope for main-able job or perhaps "both" if SE is feeling very ambitious.

Also pointing at Vincent and Terra Branford who while not jobs are transforming characters in the FF series . So it's not unheard of job / concept in FF, but certainly not the most known compared to say SMN, PLD, DRK, WHM, BLM, etc, etc lol.

So on the idea of it being a normal job I would suggest looking at say Summoner with their egi but then taking that more clear extreme while also adding a system ontop of that which ensures rotation, such that you're not always one form for a given situation. "this form is for bosses, all other forms suck for bosses". One idea was that your finale moves that you build up to can only be performed once per form, so you have to switch to get that big oomph again. Most ideally each form also comes with it's own gimmick or pro, so you might leap to a certain form given it's circumstance even perhaps for extended circumstances, but still get to play in other forms, and 'feel' the difference between them (not just different color spells). You can of course encourage rotation via other means and not such an obvious "big move locked until you switch to another", but it's just an example to encourage not basically existing in one mode forever.

I don't think the job has to switch constantly like a monk switching martial art forms lol, I just think it would be a good idea to design either implicit or explicit encouragement to not be locked down into one mode for 'too long' (like if you were only one form for an entire 20 minute encounter or for an entire raid / dungeon, then perhaps the design needs examined or the player wasn't playing as optimally as they could have been).

As for the ping I think it would depend on how much stress switching many skills causes, because at least with dancer it seems okay (when you go into dance mode and it switches your skills). Or other jobs that have ability switching skills, pvp also having this idea. So I think the ping 'should' be okay, I know should doesn't sound super confident lol.

Briefly changing, or even only changing parts of your body, sounds pretty cool too. Maybe you've got in-between phases or mix moves, build up, or early levels, which could add neat elements like that. The most recent FF 'kind of' looked like that, and it also reminds me of Yuna Dissida a bit, which is cool (imo).

I would be eager to read your thoughts, but like I said I want to avoid derailing from necro so I'll not reply on it here just to avoid that but elsewhere probably will . If you wanted to hear more of my thoughts I did make a thread here: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/385545

Will say I would love morpher as a job. You could make it like blue mage but as a full job since AFAIK morphers weren't known to be as op and as collectathony as blue mage. If not that they could even say it's the sources version of what ranjit does

When I saw Ranjit I thought "is this a tease....????" lol. I did have a little internal hype roller coaster xD.

[Rymi64]

Will say I would love morpher as a job. You could make it like blue mage but as a full job since AFAIK morphers weren't known to be as op and as collectathony as blue mage. If not that they could even say it's the sources version of what ranjit does

[Vickii]

I'm expecting the same thing minus Corsair since most of its abilities were moved in with Machinist. Beastmaster is a big hint due to Bozja and Chemist is a possible healer. I'm just sharing my suggestions for classes that many view as 'Impossible' to show that with enough imagination anything is possible. And based on the results I'm seeing I'd say I've succeeded. Take that inspiration to create your own unique ideas everyone. Truth be told I suggested a Blue Mage idea earlier, and received much backlash from the forum for it. But it was fun coming up with nonetheless. And low and behold we got Blue Mage in a form that was WAY different from my own, but still fun and exciting to play. I'm not demanding MY version be added to the game. But simply suggesting its possible. Whether its used or not is up to the FFXIV team.

Ahh I’m sorry, your suggestion is very good and well thought .

I’ve just seen necromancer talked about a bit lately and I never really saw where it came from or why. It seems to be gaining traction because people talk about it rather than hints in game. But yes, definetly possible.

[Vickii]

When people say we can't have necromancer as a job i think they refering to what most media refer to necromancers as (dead, skeletons) and yea people shut it down without trying to think of a way for it to work. Yoshi-p is the one that said that thief is not really something a hero would be so they made it rogue. I say if one wants a dark job just use the name shaman. Like how thief is the "bad" version of rogue shaman would be the "good" version of necro. Both commune with the departed and would be able to use wraiths and such to fight. Maybe even pull the power of the underworld into themselves like hades. /s

I maybe wrong on this but I think FF5 has a necromancer and they just call it dark wizard. But it’s thematically a necromancer with a skull on its face.

If they wanted to do it, they would do it. They might have to change the name or graphics to be sensitive but they would find a way.