Thread: Predictions for 5.3?

The prospect of a Rejoining happening one way, or another, just not along the usual lines, is intriguing and I am betting they may end up using something like that to link the First back together. Harder to see how they'd do it for the other worlds, but there may be a way.

Originally Posted by Cilia

It will be revealed there is only one Elidibus - the one we're dealing with is both the "heart of Zodiark" and the original from the Final Days. Venat mentions before becoming the "heart of Hydaelyn" that she would not vanish from the world and retain a form of her choosing; if that's the case it's entirely plausible Elidibus simply chose to keep his current form, and being Zodiark's "heart" just means he is in direct communion with the primal.

That's what I'm hoping, i.e. that something about being the "heart" of the Primal means the host was able to escape the sundering and reform once the Primal was gone. It's rather strange for them to have Y'shtola question Urianger's response without knowing why, and it hints at foreshadowing, IMO.

Still, it's hard to shake off the feeling that they're going for some manner of pre-ordained destiny with Zenos, especially with the revelation that he has long had visions of Amaurot's doom.

It could be that they're just trying to suggest he's always had something like the Echo, thus explaining his power prior to the Resonance... at the end of the day, it's not like Elidibus to leave loose ends hanging around, and thus I think it's unlikely he'd just let Zenos roam the world with no guidance on his part (in the form of the white-robed "Asahi".) In which case, his role might be for "Asahi" to lead him to Elidibus, revealing the fact that he is the one and only Elidibus/Zodiark, who in turn could empower Zenos for one last rematch with the WoL/D later down the line. There's a lot in the earlier 2.x scenes (particularly in Japanese), which we're now seeing touched upon again, e.g. in the epilogue to 5.2, which points to Elidibus having both a distinct purpose/duty and identity compared to the other Ascians, so I'm keen to see that expanded upon.

Guess I'll put mine down – still a while until 5.3! Not really sure whether 5.3 will touch on all these areas – in fact some seem destined to be farther out - but here goes...

1. Elidibus is the original and thus is, in effect, Zodiark, much like Ysayle was Shiva etc., and that for whatever reason, he was not sundered when Zodiark was split. I also don't think he's tempered if this is the case, and that distinguishes him from the other Ascians.

If I’m wrong, I could see Zenos as the original’s sundered Source shard, perhaps bearing the name “Sabik”, and Elidibus as either the “diplomatic ancient” (assuming the summoners did not die) or the 14th, assuming they’re just baiting us into thinking that it’s the main character.

2. I'm going with Elidibus’s true name – if he has one like Hades - being Ze(ro)mus. Although it's not a 1:1 match up, much like Venat doesn't appear to be one either for XII's version for now, there's enough inspiration for it to fit loosely. Gerun also seems like a good guess, and at the very least, the Japanese version of the Gerun Oracles is consistent with the lore we have now on the two eldest of primals, even if the other versions do read as somewhat false in certain of their details.

3. Their plan is to rejoin the Void (13th) and First both at once, with the aspiration that the collision of light and dark corrupted aether will neutralise the effect of both in the aether in each world and then flow into the Source, perhaps with Unukalhai and Cyella as “anchors” for the Void in their respective locations (Source, First.) My guess is that they were using Eden to quicken the process so that their aether is in a ready state for the merger. Although the Void is thought to be bereft of aether, this is solely based on measurements taken by NOAH... if darkness places the aether in a high state of agitation, it could be that their measurements simply weren't calibrated correctly to pick it up.

4. The equilibrium Elidibus refers to relates to the effect Zodiark and Hydaelyn have on the Lifestream itself. This is sort of based on “known” lore, but obviously ShB has shown, this can be wrong/inaccurate, and much of what we know is, ultimately, a matter of in-world character knowledge, so it is fallible. Nonetheless, that part of it, about the light/dark balance in the Lifestream, probably holds up. My guess is that there is an intersection of the Lifestream/Aetherial Sea where Hydaelyn is thought to be situated, at some point in the centre of the planet, and her effect on it is to shift the balance towards light. What happens in the aetherial realm affects the corporeal realm, so knowing what we do now about light, my best guess is that she exerts a pacifying effect on the planet's aether (consistent with Leveva's comments on what she beheld when she gazed upon the star below) and possibly the formation of new lifeforms (thus Elidibus's remarks about the waning of the souls, and Lahabrea's comments on her as a parasite, plus his comments on the eventual fate of laws both aetheric and physical.)

I also think the sundered state of the shards plays into this, as it’s unclear how it affected the way in which the Aetherial Sea interacts with them, and when you add in considerations like the passage of time between these worlds being different, having the shards segmented in this way might be damaging to the balance within the Aetherial Sea itself, if it hasn’t just sliced it up like a pizza and thus reduced its aetheric concentration. It's also unclear whether this Lifestream also extends to other planets - my thought is it could be like a river across the rift, with the "Mothercrystal" acting like a localised whirlpool of aether and souls for each star, keeping them in its "orbit".

Additionally, based on the dialogues with Emet-Selch here, plus the 5.1 lore on tempering, my surmisal is that its role is not so much to bind individuals to the Primal's will, as it is to set up an energy network for it, in order to spread its domain and possibly provide it with a baseline of aether through its summoners. The total brainwashing we see in some instances, and more nuanced forms of mind control in others, suggest it varies based on the being it hits - add in a "heart" like Venat or Elidibus, and you probably have a situation like Thordan, where it takes an active exertion of will to be used in this way. The presence of this may allow a greater measure of control over the Primal and prevent it from running amok.

5. I’m of two minds on the ultimate cause of what led to the disagreement which led to Hydaelyn's summoning, but there are two possibilities which make the most sense to me.

Taking Hydaelyn’s version of events as at least partially true, there may have been concerns that Zodiark would grow too powerful (and this in turn would somehow result in their doom being visited upon them again.) It's possible it all had to do with the effect of the Primal on the aetheric balance of the Lifestream itself (as per 4).

Still, there’s some lingering doubts about that. For one, Hythlodaeus framed the disagreement as culminating from their differing stance on how to deal with the new life that came after Zodiark repaired the planet. Yet this is not mentioned in the scene right before the summoning – instead, the rationale Emet proposed was mentioned. My thinking is there might be a link between the two things. The notable things about their meeting to me were that they did not mention tempering, did not mention the proposed final stage of sacrifices, and did not doubt the Convocation's motives. What they did cite as a reason was their belief that Zodiark was not a permanent solution to the Final Days, and so they were moved to summon the light that would keep the darkness in check.

Zodiark was being used as the means by which the Convocation would restore the ancients who were sacrificed to bring him about and restore the world, in order that they could resume their stewardship of the star. If the reason the Convocation did not deem these new lives to be suitable stewards for the planet, it may well have been because they were deficient in their potential for creation magicks - if the opposing faction blamed these for the crisis, this would appear as a bonus, and it would likely seem plausible to them if they never got to the bottom of what caused the Final Days. Thus, perhaps Venat's faction attributed blame for the Final Days to creation magicks and "checking" Zodiark's darkness had the goal of preventing the return of the ancients, and thus ultimately removing the risk they thought creation magicks posed.

There is also Elidibus at the end of 5.0 stating it was intended by Hydaelyn and her summoners that the present lifeforms would have no memory of their past. Leaving aside how he came about that knowledge, it does seem consistent with the notion that they wanted to gradually replace the ancients with beings lacking this potential.

That said, it's also possible that their long, long lifespans meant the Convocation wished to speed matters up in order to rebuild their civilisation as soon as possible, and that this is where the plan to restore their fallen came into it, rather than wait several thousands of years for the "new life" to mature.

Whichever version it is, once they got locked into battle, they would not back down, and I imagine Zodiark would not take kindly to such an unexpected imposition - it's possible this led their state of mind to become muddled.

I just hope they avoid the route of going with Zodiark deceiving the ancients/Convocation into making sacrifices to him, to revive the fallen, with no intention of ever bringing them back but just to secure more aether. The tone of Venat's congregation's dialogue, and the fact that Zodiark was already the "Will" in the star and had access to all its aether, should mean this was not necessary in the first place, but it's still a conceivable story route, albeit one I'd prefer them to avoid. Basically, "creation magicks dun it" (=were the ultimate cause of the Final Days) and "Zodiark bad" are the two things that would weaken the story for me. As things stand, you have two factions with understandable motives and conflicting perspectives, which makes it engaging.

As an aside, the Totentanz from the DNC job quests does have some slight parallels to it, but given how the Amaurotine NPC puts such emphasis on the precipitating keening sound, it's not an exact parallel.

6. In a similar vein, the troubles plaguing Amaurot and the ancient world began within the Lifestream/the "Underworld" - if the inner planet has an affinity to it, such that it intersects with it most strongly at various points inside the planet, it'd fit with the origin point of the sound being beneath the ground. I have an inkling that this started at least as far back as Hades’s short story, where the soul unexpectedly attaches itself to the firebird, since this was aberrant behaviour, even if not unprecedented.

My guess/hope is they go with some manner of entity that managed to invade via the Underworld, particularly given the potential it'd have for future storylines. Assuming such a thing, the 14th left the Convocation in pursuit of the ultimate cause of the Final Days, so as to provide the Convocation with an alternative solution, but remained MIA when approached by Venat's faction. Entering the world through the Underworld would also provide a ready avenue of retreat, to avoid the Sundering, assuming it was not imprisoned in a similar way to how the High Seraph was.

Although a storyline whereby their powers somehow taxed the world too much is certainly possible, for a race of beings so attuned to aether itself, and souls flowing within the Lifestream, I find it difficult to believe this would completely elude them, particularly since their civilisation was long-standing by all appearances and cautious in its regulation of the usage of creation magicks.

7. "Asahi" and the identity of who the final boss will be are difficult to say. On the white robed guy, I'm just going to go with it being uncharacteristic of Elidibus to simply leave Zenos as a wildcard, and given that he used Zenos's form to influence Asahi in SB, it seems fitting a minion of his would use Asahi's form to do the same to Zenos. The fact that his soul's hue stood out to Zenos when he scried his soul makes me think he is another a shard of the main character, whoever he might be. The XII Venat reference angle (be it Venat or a minion of hers) is cool and all, and could make for some very interesting writing and may well be the case, but there's too little in the plot right now to suggest that is who he is.

For the final boss, Exarch would be my main pick, possibly some crystallised fusion with the Crystal Tower, followed by Zenos as a less likely option - I think they might instead reserve him for 6.0 and Zodiark (possibly Hydaelyn too) for 6.3. G’raha is an easy pick for the memory transference reasons others mentioned.

8. The Queen of Blades will take inspiration from Asura, what with Gabranth being Legatus of the 4th, Asura featuring in Vagrant Story and with the "limbs" on either side of the body being consistent with an aspect facing left and another rightwards. I am guessing they will give her a XII Ultima flair, though. I had hoped they'd pick up on the High Seraph and embellish her lore a bit further, and who knows, maybe it'll serve as a battery for another Primal, but the evidence does seem to point towards Asura.

9. I doubt this will show up in 5.3, but I believe Sharlayan is inspired by memories of Amaurot, perhaps drawn from the Lifestream, and the Twelve were a collective memory of the Convocation, spurred by the Ascians’ early attempts to see what could be done with the sundered lifeforms, i.e. they were the “gods” that walked the earth during the First era, with the sundered Overlords gradually arising as a shard of theirs was enlisted – probably each from one of the shards they intended to rejoin due to some benefit this link provided. I also think the Chrysalis is the off-world site/plane where the Convocation took to to summon Zodiark, given the precarious state of the world, and where at least two of the unsundered escaped to when things became unsalvageable.

Lastly, I am curious whether they will expand on the lore behind the auspices and perhaps link it to the ancients, with their immense lifespans.

Some other musings, a propos my prior post...

1. Firstly, and less specific to 5.3 (who knows?), on the topic of the "hear, feel, think" message Hydaelyn emits, someone pointed out some interesting facts to me from the Ivalice side quests, from Mikoto (there's also some sections from Unukalhai which potentially tie in), which are linked here.

From these, a few interesting facts follow:

1. The auracites are capable of emitting a message in their own right. ("Hear, feel, think", anyone? As per the 5.2 starshower scene.)
2. They serve as independent sources of power. It also mentions they have an appetite for it, though to me this sounds like a battery that seeks to replenish itself.
3. They are capable of multiplying the incorporeal aether within their confines. Both primals were summoned through sacrifice, yielding incorporeal aether, and they were in the planet itself, a place composed of incorporeal aether. This sounds a lot to me like the way the RDM crystal functions.
4. As per Unukalhai, they are not good at containing Primals and let their energies bleed out. Given that I believe Zodiark's dark aspect was intended so as to speed up recovery of the planet, my surmisal is that this may be an intentional feature of these auracites.

Both Hydaelyn and Zodiark have crystals associated with them, so I wonder if the auracites are crude re-creations of the very power source that was used for them. It'd explain why they wouldn't drain the Aetherial Sea, instead having some manner of efficient power source of their own.

2. I’ve found the quest dialogue I had in mind for what Leveva saw when she peered into the star. It makes me think that, when AST draws aether from distant stars, what it is tapping into is their “mothercrystal”, and this is why Leveva encounters difficulty when trying to draw it from Hydaelyn (the star), as Hydaelyn (the primal) sits inside it, within the Aetherial Sea (see my earlier post for the things pointing to that under point 4.) By contrast, GEO/CNJ etc. don’t peer as deeply. I guess it makes sense that they would go for the brightest “bauble” of aether they can see when gazing into the heavens to draw aether from other worlds – the latter of which is something Koji commented on here.

Koji: That’s supposed to be how it works. You have your mages that draw from the ambient energy from nature, the mages that draw from their own aether from within, the combination of two, and then someone asked about Astrologian, and where are they getting it. The Japanese is vague and says something like, “From… the heavens!” I wanted to be a little more specific to where you could work it out scientifically. I didn’t want it to be like, “It’s magic!” Everything else in the game has a definite reason. Look at it in terms of how even a faraway planet or sun will still have a minute amount of gravitational pull and affect on other planets. It’s kind of the same thing where aether, even though it’s far, still has traces that Astrologians learn to find, pull, and enhance so they can use the energy.

GE: The other planets are like, “What, you’re not pulling enough aether from your own planet? You gotta pull ours too?”

Koji: Maybe there’s this whole thing where all the planets are like, “Goddamn Hydaelyn, your guys keep stealing aether from us!”

3. I’ve had some further thoughts on our friend, “Asahi”. I think Unukalhai is a good candidate for him.

Elidibus is a very deliberate actor, so I think rendering him to the Scions was done for a reason – perhaps the immediate goal of keeping Regula distracted whilst he began working on Varis, but later this entailed keeping tabs on them.

As we know, Unukalhai was a potential WoL, who nonetheless was too weak to fulfil his destiny – something he regrets. He has the Echo. We don’t know, as far as I am aware, if he died (physically) to accompany Elidibus to the Source, but it’s possible that he did and was also taught how to hop bodies. Notably, it gives him a connection to the Ascians, which evidently this “Asahi” has, and fits with this character’s sundered nature – furthermore, although very speculative, if he is the 13th shard of the main character, it may explain Zenos’s apparent interest in him when he scried his soul. The foregoing helps him slot into a number of different roles.

1) Sleeper agent for Elidibus – he’s quietly gathering information on his behalf. Some of the wording he uses does suggest he believes in Elidibus’s commitment to equilibrium and salvation of the star (the Source), and perhaps he was waiting for the signal from Elidibus to handle the matter of Zenos, being passed all the relevant information he needs to better manipulate him, including his affiliation to Asahi.
2) As above, but rather than being truthful in his commitment to Elidibus, Hydaelyn (Venat) has spoken to him (he has the Echo, so he can receive her calling.) Perhaps he sees this as his opportunity to “redeem” himself, and so is acting as her minion. Possible reasons for this below.
3) As 2), but he isn’t acting specifically on Venat’s behalf, but his own, or some other entity’s.

On 2), something that struck me is in the scene where the Overlords congregate, they mention forging a “final key” by nurturing the gifted. Whilst the direct reference at the time was to all the MC’s Primal-slaying activity, this also sounds awfully similar to the Ascians’ plan on the First and also what Elidibus is doing now. Although we don’t have the exact timings, presumably at this point Loghrif and Mitron were still in action and so this was before they were defeated by the WoLs of the First - whether that was permanent or not.

Come 3.2, Hydaelyn communes with the WoL through Minfilia, but suddenly she goes quiet – we don’t know exactly what happened, but later on, in 3.4, ceding a crystal brings her to manifest again and send Voice of the Mother to deal with the matter. I wonder if this event (the silencing of the crystal) coincides with Ardbert getting his crystal and thus the inception of the Flood on the First. If so, the effect of nurturing so many with the Blessing could have both been to weaken her (as Elidibus notes that the main character prospers at a great cost to her), and that may be his plan again, only on a wider scale.

Sensing this, the reason for her involvement may be to forestall this eventuality and use Zenos to this end.

I still think 1) is a stronger possibility, as I don’t think Elidibus would want to leave Zenos as a loose end, but at least the above presents a reasonable hypothesis as to why Venat may be reprising another part of her XII namesake, where she influences Zenos (Legatus of the 12th Legion); in spite of his superficial similarities to Sephiroth, there are some with Vayne too, especially with the patricide and collusion with some puppeteering entity. I believe her overriding imperative is to see the “darkness”, Zodiark, banished for good, at any cost.

4. Also, a friend of mine pointed out the similarities between this form of Zodiark, and the middle two wings, with Elidibus’s symbol (the esper's form being embedded in the XII sigils.) Interestingly, Zodiark in XII is described thus: “Strongest of the scions created by the gods, they feared his growth, and so kept him a child. So indomitable is his strength that all things are by him twisted and pressed into oblivion. He alone fashions the laws governing all things, and administers punishment in place of the gods.”

We see the aspect of him re-writing the aetherophysical laws of the world, to get it back up and running, and we also see fear of his power motivating Venat’s faction to try limit it. Although the Convocation bears the stronger similarities with the Occuria, in this respect, it seems Venat’s faction took on the stance of limiting his reach out of fear of what it might result in.

5. Lastly, it seems from the trailers at least, that they're holding to their promise of fleshing out Elidibus and his motives more. Here's some interesting segments from some interviews (translated here) they did in the lead up to 5.2:

Famitsu: The patch artwork has a man in a white robe and a man who looks like a warrior. Are they the key characters of the story?
Yoshida: Just like the patch artwork suggests, they express light, darkness and the arbitrator. Maybe the crystal in the background will be important later.

[...]

Famitsu: How much will we find out about the warrior-like man and the man in the white robe?
Yoshida: Not all, but you should expect to step into a lot of their lore. Elidibus is the last one of the remaining "original ascians". Thanks to ShB, Emet-selch took away the spot light, but, Elidibus will prepare himself for the worst and make a fuss. He's also voice again after so many years. What are his intentions and ambitions? How did he feel about the other members of the convocation of the fourteen, who were the representatives of mankind. You'll see all these sides of him.
Famitsu: I'd like to see his skills as the arbitrator/emissary.
Yoshida: Yes. By the way, if you finish the quest revolving around the "shadow lord", which you get to unlock after clearing all the other role quests, you'll find more enjoyment out of the 5.2 MSQ.

[...]

Dengeki: Is that so. How was the order placed for patch 5.2's artwork? Elidibus in the middle draws my attention.
Yoshida: To be honest,it's particularly hard to discuss that question right now, because we asked for this artwork with the plot of 5.3 in mind (bitter smile).
If you experience all the way up to the end of patch 5.3's story and look back at this artwork, you would probably think "Oh, i see now" and be satisfied.(edited)
If i explain what's going on right now, Elidibus calls himself the arbitrator right? If you look at the artwork, he is standing between the warrior of light and the warrior of darkness, with his Ascian emblem showing in front of his mask. Which allows you to assume he is trying, at least now, to play his role as the arbitrator. Why is it written on top of the crystal is a question that won't be truly answered until you reach patch 5.3 and i would be happy if players imagined the meaning after 5.2.

There was also these for 5.3, which unfortunately were not translated (although Chrome can translate them, albeit shoddily), but the gist of them appears to be that they will focus more on the summoners of the two Primals and their motives, than the two primals themselves, because essentially they derive from the goals of their summoners.

I hope they do Elidibus justice, and go for a nuanced portrayal of him, as he is by far one of the most intriguing characters in the story, in my view. I am keen to see whether they will follow up on some specific dialogue he had in the Japanese version (worded differently in the NA), such as referring to the Ascians as playing Hydaelyn's game in inciting the calamities (with the souls becoming less "human", rather than weaker, in the process), or the part where, during his introduction, he states he would like to speak alone one day (something that pops up in the trailer.)

He appears shortly after you see the vision of the dark crystal - mayhap that was his first attempt to reach out at the main character.

Originally Posted by Lauront

We don't know that Unukulhai died to get to The Source.

He did. He tells you in the cutscene after Zurvan that after his last stand he lay dying, that Elidibus came and, "found his tormented spirit and bore him away to the rift between worlds." That line, in the context of knowing that the WoDs had to kill themselves and use their Crystals of Light to go to the rift means that Unukulhai is the same way, only he was killed by Voidsent/whatever he was fighting.

My predictions, wishes and theories:

• Elidibus' plans for the first will come to fruition, causing the Exarch to do something drastic and move Norvrant to the Source.
• However prior to this, plans to return the Scions to the Source will suceed, and they are thus sent to Present Day CT with two purposes, Waking up G'raha Tia, and preventing the Calamity Source Side.
• The result is that the First is merged with the Source in a more literal way with Norvrant becoming part of Hydaelyn, however it will also reuslt in the space being compelty occupied by Sin Eaters much like the !3th is occupied by Voidsent, and also let the Ironworks know that it is possible to cross the threshold of the time-space continuum. This will set up future arcs as they seek to (re?)create the Tycoon, and as Norvrant adapts to their new surroundings and its source counterparts. Especially since Garlemald has one new continent to add to their conquests.
• The First's WoLs will be relevant through, first as a Crystal Braves analogue (group founded with good intentions turns bad via manipulation) and than once they realize that they'd been played like hellbound string instruments, will work with the Scions as ardent allies.
• The Warrior may or may not be called the Warrior of Twilight.
• 5.4/5 Will then tie up loose ends while setting up for a Chrono Trigger crossover or a story in that vein, attempts to restore the 13th or an incursion into Garlemald. Either way Ryne, Cyliva, and G'hrara will join the Scions.
• On that note, Unukalhai might also return to the spotlight if the 13th becomes relevant, in which case the WT storyline would be required.
• 5.55 will introduce the first and last HM dungeon of the expansion. As well as the first MSQ relevant one, Aumarot (Hard), where the Scions are tasked with preventing Garlean forces from destroying Emet-Seltch's recreation and it'll tie into the Weapon arc as Gaius ironically must help defend the Ascian creation from the Diamond Weapon piloted by the last of his orphans, naturally THAT arc will become required, much like the HM primals in ARR (Diamond will of course be based on Varis and Hades, which means you get to fight the late emperor thrice in the same xpac :P) (Diamond is a Trial ofc)
• The story shall end depenignon what route it takes, If Garlemald is the focus of 6.0 than the Alliance, and allies (Norvrant and Othard) poised to end the war, if the 13th is the focus, then the Scions and Ironworks will work to create the Tycoon use the CT's gate to the WoD to travel there and find a way to restore. If were going the Chrono Trigger route, then the Tycoon plot still stand and then they use it to travel to one of the other shards.

I'm honestly believing that the Elidibus that we are dealing with is Zodiark, just from the way he worded how we could see him as. I mean he straight up tells our character and the scions that he is there to fulfill the will of the convocation and that if we wanted to think of him as another Ascian then we could. (Not the exact quote from when we confronted him in Rak Tika but pretty much the gist of it). So yeah I think that would be a revelation sometime in the future.

*ears perk up* What's all this about mandatory Crystal Tower? Could it be? Was making the top 100 FF characters list twice enough to get Moose's least favorite Archon out of cold storage and finally put the "but its side content" argument to rest for eternity in his place?

Actually, that has me more worried than anything. Alisaie and Nero have done perfectly fine without their respective origin stories made mandatory. The first and last time they set a hard lock on the MSQ behind a "side story" it kicked off a chain of events that killed off both Paplymo and Minfilia and left the Scions forever changed. Pretty much the only character this lock would affect in the same way is G'raha (Ramnbroes is still on-duty in the Summoner quests, after all), unless they're suddenly planning on taking Koh Rabntah seriously. What about that weekly?