Tenacity

[ForteNightshade]

Ok, but this is still largely framed from the perspective of "this doesn't really change the number of heals that will be needed." The closest you came is referencing how much difference this would make with the best most optimal players, across the entire party.

All I'm saying is, taking a step back, instead of looking at the heals, asking, for that one particular tank, and only the tank, with a "2% damage increase" for taking dhit over tenacity, what will be the difference in time or dps or apm or whatever you want to measure? Like, even just from a pure striking dummy attempt, SSS style. Pick a dummy, test each build, compare time, compare number of actions, gcds, whatever. Something tells me the difference will still be within margin of error, so to speak. Minimally influential, either way.

2% damage will be considerably higher than 2% mitigation because we attack far more frequently than any boss does. Regardless, damage will always be preferred over mitigation due to the latter having a threshold. Having more of the latter isn't going to accomplish anything whereas damage might. Even if it's by small margins. That can be the difference between a higher parse. And that matters more to most people.

[Barraind]

Calling your bias, and requesting calculation on how many GCDs that 2% difference in damage makes.

If extra Tenacity only maybe saves the very occasional heal cast, I'd be willing to suspect extra Direct Hit only maybe saves you an occasional extra attack.

Basically, if your claim were flipped around, would it still hold just as true? "You gain mitigation, but lose enough damage to maybe require an extra hit from time to time to compensate."

Or, shorter, "The difference is minimal and rarely effects any outcome in the majority of content."

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...on-vs-Tank-DPS.

It's actually 1 in 17 heals at best.

Because of how mitigation stacks in this game:

In terms of raid tanking: A hit that does 160k pre-mitigation will do 128k to a tank. It will do 89.8k to a tank that uses a cooldown. It will do 85.1k to a tank that has stacked tenacity and popped a cooldown.

The actual effect of the most tenacity you can stack in this patch is, in practice, 15% of the value of the tank passive.

It takes roughly 700k base damage incoming to a tank using a single cooldown for the maximum amount of tenacity currently available to save one 700 potency heal.

This also ignores all incidental healing the tank will be taking. It also ignores heals that heal differently than x potency heal. It's the best case scenario for when tenacity is good.

I'm not saying the idea of tenacity isn't good. My tank in EQ takes 700k pre mitigation damage every 5-15 seconds when tanking. Id take 14s tenacity over half the stats on his gear. I'm saying it's not good in this game because damage packets dont work the way they need to for it to be good without significantly more mitigation on it.

If it doesnt realistically affect how a healer heals you, or how 2 healers time their cooldowns, its worse than just taking the damage boost.

[TheForce]

No one has ever said that you can't clear Savage or Ex with tenacity melds in the history of ever. Problem with tenacity is though does not give a big enough boost to defence and offence combined to make it worthwhile for most people.

Some good reads about tenacity can be found in a couple reddit posts from this year:

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...e_breakpoints/
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...to_be_avoided/ (the comments sections)

And a quote with a couple good questions:

I wish you were right about that, but I've met some individuals who unfortunately do believe that.

[RitsukoSonoda]

I feel like part of the reason tenacity doesn't add more to damage mitigation is the majority of the game appearing to be toned to hold people's hands. The enemies damage is scaled back in party duties because they don't want the squishy non tank people running the risk of getting 1 shotted when they stand in something they shouldn't or run off ahead when they shouldn't drawing aggro. Because of this more people get to the point they look at nothing but their DPS and don't bother with anything else. That said it hasn't stopped me from running skillspeed/tenacity melds with DH as the backup if I cant get full materia bonus on the first 2 stats. It just feels better to me. Then again I don't run a parse and don't really care about dps unless I'm in a situation where I can visibly see I am doing more damage as the tank than the DPS in my party.

[Fhaerron]

If you fail to use your CD for tankburst in Savage you will die. Having 100 more tenacity or less will not change that.
Meanwhile you will get higher damage using DH over tenacity.


tenacity and det can be usefull in ultimate for prog when you're learning where the damage spikes are and such but there too you will die if you fail to use your CD. When going for the kill it's best to use your BiS materies anyway.

[Rasikko]

@Whole thread: Translation: Tenacity sucks.

/thread?