Yoshi's post about client server and cheating

[Laraul]

In order to prevent cheating, we cannot use the client only

You do not quote something like that without providing a link to the SOURCE. I have no way of verify if that statement is valid. And you are making assumptions that aren't backed up by the game's behavior. Takes much less time to toggle active/passive mode then it does to transfer things to a retainer. More so, this would not prevent the existence of a mail system or limit trades to 4 items.

[Discordia]

In order to prevent cheating, we cannot use the client only

^That is the part that makes me VERY concerned. The original FFXIV at launch was coded in such a way that is nearly impossible to hack (yay great no hackerz!) but then we all deal with the millions of headaches this causes us every day. Examples:

• Trading limit of 4 items
• No mail system
• Server checks on moving items: when you move an item to the retainer it checks if the action is valid with the server in Japan at every step this is why it feel soooooo sloooowwww when you move items. Most MMO's validate an action when the process is done or after each major step. And utilize the client for many of the smaller in between steps to speed up the process.
• Activation of abilities and the on screen effect, all server side. The slower connection you have the more the battle system feels slugish.

I'm not saying I want to play an action RPG that is 100% client side and full of exploits/hacks. But I worry that Yoshi will make the same mistakes that Tanaka did and make "Bot/hack prevention (aka all server side processing)" take priority over "client/user response and convenience".

Would be really great to hear that they are going to greatly improve/totally fix these issues and re-write this code so that the game is not 100% server side like it is now for 2.0 There is no way you can get rid of that laggy feel w/o making some portions of the game client side its just impossible with our current global internet connections.

To my knowledge they have not commented on this at all except the standard "the current system is unable to handle the changes (mail/LS actions/trade)" <yes these things are going to be fixed with the new engine but it should also be through more client side processing.

First of all, I don't think you understand game development and I doubt you're a programmer, so none of what you said is of any concern.

Secondly, many successful online games are handled on the server side, with the client only handling the least important functions, including UI and display. Web browser based games are a prime example of this and many services already exist that can handle thousands and thousands of requests on an enterprise level, running everything from complete office suites to laboratory diagnostics to mathematical modeling. The requests being handled for FFXIV are miniscule compared to that, despite having numerous players connected at once. IF Blizzard could successfully deal with 12 million players (at their height of popularity) then your concerns have already been invalidated as an issue.

[Biggs]

Ah, there's a special place in my heart for internet trolls.

Yeah, its probably the same spot in your heart where plaque builds up and eventually kills you. These particular forums have them in spades.

[Biggs]

First of all, I don't think you understand game development and I doubt you're a programmer, so none of what you said is of any concern.

Secondly, many successful online games are handled on the server side, with the client only handling the least important functions, including UI and display. Web browser based games are a prime example of this and many services already exist that can handle thousands and thousands of requests on an enterprise level, running everything from complete office suites to laboratory diagnostics to mathematical modeling. The requests being handled for FFXIV are miniscule compared to that, despite having numerous players connected at once. IF Blizzard could successfully deal with 12 million players (at their height of popularity) then your concerns have already been invalidated as an issue.

I LOVE it when threads devolve to the point where everyone needs to be a game developer to reply to an open forum. LOL, best shit ever. "What do you mean your chest hurts? Are you a fucking heart surgeon?! Then you don't know what the hell your talking about!" Classic...

[Macha]

I LOVE it when threads devolve to the point where everyone needs to be a game developer to reply to an open forum. LOL, best shit ever. "What do you mean your chest hurts? Are you a fucking heart surgeon?! Then you don't know what the hell your talking about!" Classic...

Tachi had a complaint about issues that he or she saw, and they were making assumptions based on what I assume is very little knowledge. Discordia is right, a lot of functions should be handled server-side. But... not everyone who plays this game is ridiculously tech-savvy.

Can Discordia's comment be taken as rude/condescending? Yes it can, but I'm fairly sure that he or she was trying to explain from the perspective of someone who I assume has a tech background... and was being a bit impatient about it. I don't think they were trying to crucify OP.

The problem isn't that the server performs these checks, it's that the software on the engine is probably as well optimized as the client is... so it probably sucks. Server location relative to the user + user's connection speed probably also plays a large factor in the delays we see.

It would be a disaster if the client handled the character's inventory (RMT or A cheater could probably find a way to insert items in the user's inventory), handled Mail (My reasons for this differ. I'll explain if someone wants to tell me what they think should be handled by the client.), Abilities (Can be exploited so people can spam abilities. Imagine how much of a pain that is if we had PvP already and the client handled everything).


However, I would like to know what exactly is meant by transferring packets + response time. Could someone send me a link to the original post by Yoshi-P (or where it is in the translation thread) , since I am incredibly lazy? I want to see if he's referring to the complete end to end delay for one side or if he means propagation + trans delay for one side... or something else.

I'd say, just based on my experience with the traps from Cutter's Cry + Ifrit + Working with this game in general, that my delay is ~1-3 seconds depending on what I am doing, which is a far cry from the .3 seconds posted above.

[Renshi]

２．０で来ている。
It's coming, in 2.0

Said this, I approve all of the arguments the OP says, but it seems like they have limitation with their server structure, and once 2.0 will come a new Engine and Server will be placed, so hang in there!

[Laraul]

Developers don't continue to pour their time, money, and resources into a project improving it with new content when they know it will no longer exist in a years time. Rather they move everything to the new project or just stick with the existing one and improve it rather than replace it.

What I'm saying 2.0 is not what people think it is. It's not a new server and a new client with a new engine. It's at best a planned expansion. At worst a device created to keep the existing player base motivated in the game. 2.0 can not possibly be a "new" MMO since everyone would have to start over fresh.

[Meskyanichi]

Just drop in a client-side queuing system and handle events such as "trading" and "vendoring" items in the background. This way you can just select a bunch of items without delay and it would process further in the background as you walk away from the NPC. When it hits the server it would perform the necessary validation checks. Assuming the user has not "cheated" in some way, all will go well and no errors will be thrown. If you're a cheater, you deserve to get an error in your face. Meanwhile, you can continue to do whatever else you were planning to instead of taking 5 minutes to vendor 50 items due to waiting on every server response for each item you vendor/trade. It's ridiculous. There is no need to wait for "new servers", it's just a simple request and if it runs in the background, who cares if it takes 5 minutes? As long as you don't have to wait there for that crap to happen. In fact, it's so horrible and demotivating that it discourages people to play.

[Coldfire]

Adding a queue to a complex netcode that you didn't write yourself is a nasty task :P
The code is probably a complete mess which doesn't make it any easier. I think they might as well just completely rewrite it xD

[Alhanelem]

Question.
What's the purpose of defending a decision that has proven to be inconvenient to the player and the main problem that has chased off so many early subscribers?

Or am I just not understanding what is behind the input, execution, and animation lags. Because I admit, I probably don't know much about this stuff as you do.

It's not defending a decision. It's defending a fact. You want them to change something they cannot reasonably change at the present time. Ping is a problem today, it will be a problem next week, and it will be a problem next year. They can't just let the client decide every single thing all the time, because that makes it much easier to cheat. (YES, we know it's still possible to cheat, but it would be irresponsible of them to just leave the door wide open).

Certain things that the server must be checked with right now can be changed (and they have changed some in the past. However, there will always be things for which this will be an issue and the only way to resolve them is to have regional servers. SE wants all servers to be global, though. It's a can't have your cake and eat it too thing.

Frankly, I'm of the opinion that they are developing the 2.0 client with this in mind and they are doing what they can to minimize the things for which data transfer time is an issue- but that this isn't going to happen before that.