It makes zero sense for the PLD class to have three different skills for AoE

[CarnivalNights]

I personally don’t believe in ability bloat.

But flash is the worst action in the game.

It looks bad, it sounds bad, it has the worst enmity gain, and does 0 damage.

While the blind is a nice aspect, that’s literally all it has going for it.

Please stop trying to play the game with1 hotbar though. I play on gamepad and have many empty slots, I also repeat “shield lob” and other actions on multiple hot bars, use all actions, and yes still have empty slots....

Why do people try to jam actions into just 2 bars and then refuse to limit break will always be beyond my comprehension. But hey I don’t pay your sub.




Edit:

Just to help clarify, If I removed the actions that are on my second hotbar off, that are on my first one... My second hotbar would have 6 empty slots, my third hot bar currently has 7 empty slots if I remove sustaining potions (used in Palace of the dead) and my role ability hot bar has 7 empty slots, which also has on it limit break and sprint.

So please. People. Stop trying to jam all your actions onto just 1-2 hot bars. Its really not dificult to cycle between 3 hot bars.... Then pressing R1+Square to switch to a role/general hot bar.

If you're a keyboard user having issues, try switching to gamepad? I thought keyboard was supposed to be "superior" anyway?

I actually use every hotbar available, that doesn't change the fact about what I'm addressing in the thread.

Also, what's with the unnecessary rant that ended up coming off as pretentious and presumptuous? Limit Break? Pay my sub? Keyboard being superior? What?

[Derio]

Flash needs to deal damage and that should help going forward. PLD has the highest skill bloat so I expect PLD to get the most cuts this upcoming expansion.

[Phoenicia]

Meh, Warriors have to take some of the blame for this to be honest.

Not you personally mind, but in general a decent chunk of WAR players have been incredibly obnoxious about their top spot. Busting in to threads about the other tanks, or even other jobs in general, to spam the place up with 'Blue DPS' 'Man mode' & 'Put on your big boy subligar and grab an axe' type rubbish.

I mean, you're not spamming tired half a decade old memes or anything, but you did come in to a thread about Paladin AoE and then end your post talking about Warrior AoE and how Warrior AoE could use some changes to make Warrior play better, and now half the posts in here are about Warrior and you're complaining about how other people derail conversations about your job

It isn't really the warrior players' fault that they picked the job that was actually designed better than its competitors. It also isn't their fault that a clear favoritism on the side of the dev-team exists.

Took all 2 years of complaining for HW PLD to become the beast it is in Stormblood. Took SE less than a patch of complaining about WAR to be COMPLETELY REWORKED, TWICE!! (2.1 and 4.1). But I think it has to do with the attitude of the tanks and how they "complain".

Yes, attitude matters a lot. While warriors have a lot going on for them and their toolkit leaves little to complain about tbh despite there is still some to be desired. There is always something to be improved on after all. Specially in areas that make the job fun to play instead of 10 seconds of fun and 80 of sleeping. But what ends up really happening is warriors either give actual feedback, or just come in to boast how big their... axes are.

On the other hand, you find the other two jobs' complaints are always about what the other jobs have and they don't, completely ignoring what they have on themselves. PLDs cry about no dashing regardless of completely nullifying knockback and the ability to share that with someone else as well via cover. Heck, even DRK managed to complain about WAR's "mobility". Instead of, you know, being mature about discussing the job's actual problems.

Don't get me wrong, the good threads do happen, and a lot of PLD's and DRK's issues are legit. A lot of Lyth's threads about DRK's design are VERY good (you can see them around here on the tank forums). This thread discussing PLD's AoE is another example. But these are, sadly, the minority among the sea of "why do they have it and I don't" cesspool. Maybe that's why WAR gets buffed so quickly while PLD and DRK complaints get ignored. It is very hard to take "give us what they have" seriously because it only looks like jealousy. Just go to the DPS forums and see how well received BLM's requests for Raise are.

As for Kalise, he/she has a point, this is about AoE skills and resource consolidation, it reminded them of WAR and DRK's AoE, and as such, stated what they wish to happen for the other jobs to have their AoE be more fun. Kalise had no intention of hijacking a PLD thread to discuss how OP WAR is. It's other people that did. Just like how I mentioned that stance dancing wasn't something to build on in a game that disfavors stances in the Gunbreaker thread and hell broke loose about how WAR is so OP it doesn't need its tank stance locked ability Inner Beast (which was relegated to "useless status" due to the stance that it is locked behind is "useless") that made a 5 page thread into 25.

I have nothing against their opinions either. If they think a job is OP or UP and have good data to back it up that isn't "I feel it is so" it is fine. And if they do not have said data, then we'll just agree to disagree. I'm not gonna hate them for it. And to be fair, WAR, by design, is at fault of being borderline OP. This is even more exacerbated by the job's popularity, both, for the "meta", the amount of players that enjoy playing it whither for thematic reasons, playstyle or just FotM chasing. When you have twice as many WAR as the other 2 jobs combined, you are bound to find these EXTREMELY good players discovering the shenanigans it can pull off as opposed to certain underplayed jobs *cough*DRK*cough*. But again, this isn't about tank Balance. This is just stating how silly this anti-WAR bias that started in 3.0 is getting at.

[Jandor]

It isn't really the warrior players' fault that they picked the job that was actually designed better than its competitors. It also isn't their fault that a clear favoritism on the side of the dev-team exists.

Took all 2 years of complaining for HW PLD to become the beast it is in Stormblood. Took SE less than a patch of complaining about WAR to be COMPLETELY REWORKED, TWICE!! (2.1 and 4.1). But I think it has to do with the attitude of the tanks and how they "complain".

Loudly and constantly? lol.

On the other hand, you find the other two jobs' complaints are always about what the other jobs have and they don't, completely ignoring what they have on themselves. PLDs cry about no dashing regardless of completely nullifying knockback and the ability to share that with someone else as well via cover. Heck, even DRK managed to complain about WAR's "mobility". Instead of, you know, being mature about discussing the job's actual problems.

<snip>

But these are, sadly, the minority among the sea of "why do they have it and I don't" cesspool. Maybe that's why WAR gets buffed so quickly while PLD and DRK complaints get ignored. It is very hard to take "give us what they have" seriously because it only looks like jealousy.

Dark Knights didn't really complain about the lack of knockback immunity until Warrior got it, before that it was seen as a 'Paladin thing'.

Paladins didn't really complain about lack of gap closer until Warrior got one. Before that having a gap closer was seen as a 'Dark Knight thing'.

Dark Knight didn't really complain about the lack of party shield until, again, Warrior got given one. Before that the party shield was a 'Paladin thing'.

Paladin and Dark Knight had their own unique tools, and Warrior got given versions of those tools, of course it's going to result in complaints about us non-WARs not getting the same access.

It might ease up a bit when Gunbreaker comes out, but right now with three tanks, when just one has something then it's a cool thing that fleshes out their identity, when two have something then the majority of tanks have it and it's seen as a 'tank thing' that their job lacks, and it's always the same job tipping the balance.

<snip>

But again, this isn't about tank Balance. This is just stating how silly this anti-WAR bias that started in 3.0 is getting at.

Eh, I was being a bit tongue in cheek, I don't really have a problem with them bringing up Warrior AoE.

[shao32]

it's in part fault of both, 1 side by SE to clear create favoritism over WAR on balance efforts and those who take rude actitudes about his job and others, i saw many threats this years of WAR man mode, WAR one man army, WAR rules,perfect desing baby, PLD never should tank, DRK is trash memes all around here and other places.

at the same time nobody here say a word about WAR mains when we talk about feedback but mostly we complaing about SE prioroties and some just get salty about this.

i don't think PLD or DRK give just worse feedback across the years at all, looking at heavensward PLD feedback was pretty clear pointing PLD problems and SE just ignore it mostly or say it's not necesary like PLD blocking magic to in the end of the expansion recognize WAR was op and PLD needs block magic, at the same time DRK feedback on stormblood, nobody say a word about WARs and his feedback, ppl just focus on give the best feedback about DRK and his innumerable flaws in the best way posible but SE again show favoritism about WAR and that generate a anti-WAR feedback meme we still see today, if WAR say a word they will be buffed again, what buff WAR will get this patch?, another letter another day without DRK mention on it ect ect, action-reaction.

as i will say it never was the "why do they have it and I don't" actitude you spreading non-WAR mains have but more "¿why WAR is getting everything the other 2 have but better?" specially since the "why do they have it and I don't" was more around WAR side when they ask for an aoe shield.

it's dosen't matter, WAR can be cleary the most OP thing on the earth you can't say a word or blood will run, 6 years of 1 job ruling a role it's not what i call balance, and not everything can be show as math proofs since we lack the formulas to calculate like the limit break and the effort/trivialize oportunity-cost and versatility, the balance is about how the kits intereact with the content too not only numbers despite numbers are one of the most important thing, all being said.

so Kalise give a fair feedback, but missing some things to make it looks better when "WAR gets everything" memes are all day around in a forum where you can read the post in many tones it can sounds good or bad depending of the panorama specially if you post that in a threat that is not WAR feedback, we can discuss the WAR coment on the gunbreaker threat but i considering, looking at WAR history, expect that gunbreaker not being overshadow by WAR midgthy perfect desing its a pretty fair expectation in a "what you expect of gunbreaker" threat.

[Kalise]

as i will say it never was the "why do they have it and I don't" actitude you spreading non-WAR mains have but more "¿why WAR is getting everything the other 2 have but better?" specially since the "why do they have it and I don't" was more around WAR side when they ask for an aoe shield.

Wait, WAR's ASKED for an AoE shield?

That sounds bizarre. Especially since before the random Shake it Off implementation, PLD was literally the only Tank with an AoE shield and it wasn't even a particularly major part of their toolkit (It still isn't to this day. It's "Okay" but it is generally overshadowed by their other tools such as Cover, Intervention and Passage of Arms). I would be most confused with WAR's whom actually would have suggested such a thing.

it's dosen't matter, WAR can be cleary the most OP thing on the earth you can't say a word or blood will run

You can. Just make a thread about it.

Don't just hijack literally every other thread in existence that mentions WAR in the slightest. Actually create a thread for the sole purpose of discussing how OP WAR is and then talk as much as you like about it.

That's the main issue, y'all have these strong feelings that you want to talk about whenever you can but none of you bother to actually make a thread where discussing it in detail is actually topical.

Instead, you wait until you see someone casually reference WAR in a somewhat related way to a different topic (I.e. In this thread about AoE of a Tank I reference both other Tanks AoEs. In that Gunbreaker thread someone reference *Gasp* another Tank that the job will have to compete with, in design as well as balance) and then start to spew out your thoughts on "WAR is OP" irregardless of how relevant it is to the topic.

Since, discussing one of the 3, soon 4 Tanks within a topic on the TANK Subforum is not inherently a faux pas. Especially if one also has wholly on-topic discussion within their post (As my initial post did in fact discuss the topic at hand, which is that of PLD's AoE. I merely also brought up a side note of WAR given that this thread on the whole ends up referring to Tank AoEs in general given that some of the design around PLD's AoE also features in DRK's AoE where they too have a similar case of a more damaging skill just taking place of an AoE they get at the early levels)

[WhyAmIHere]

Wait, WAR's ASKED for an AoE shield?

WAR's generally asked for raid utility. They asked for SiO to do something.
SE saw an "easy" fix to address both those points in one. (read: easy == simple/lazy/little work required)

[shao32]

yes they did, one of the comon most request of WAR back in 4.0 is giving utility to WAR in form of a party defensive support skill, the most comon sugestion whas an aoe thrill of battle, expand his iriginal effect to all the party or some kind of defensive mitigation.

here some of the threats thats include a variety of sugestions about party utility, sorry if im not specific with the big one, phone and such.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-potential-fix

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...r-Utility-Idea

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...eedback-Thread

when someone claim we are "balanced" i considering i can disagree and express my opinion about it, and most of the time involves the extremes of why isnt consider balanced since balance perspective comes from 2 or more sides, in this case WAR ruling and DRK gutted.

[Kalise]

WAR's generally asked for raid utility. They asked for SiO to do something.
SE saw an "easy" fix to address both those points in one. (read: easy == simple/lazy/little work required)

yes they did, one of the comon most request of WAR back in 4.0 is giving utility to WAR in form of a party defensive support skill, the most comon sugestion whas an aoe thrill of battle, expand his iriginal effect to all the party or some kind of defensive mitigation.

Oh, so they merely asked for party utility.

Thus you make it seem like they were saying "We don't have an AoE shield like PLD, we should get one!" to further fuel WAR hate...

In fact, no-one asked for an AoE shield at all from what I can see. Instead looking at things like TBN's single target shield but as a health buff instead. Or otherwise AoE Thrill of Battle, which would have been more thematic than an AoE shield.

It was SE that decided to make SiO into an AoE shield. It was not down to WAR's asking for it.

I personally, don't like SiO. I feel it's out of place in WAR. In the same vein, I'd still like it if WAR and DRK had some party utility so as to not have PLD having literally all of it. However, done so in ways that is thematic to WAR and DRK and won't be just copying a PLD skill.

However this is off-topic here. It would make much more sense for me to discuss it in a WAR 5.0 wishlist thread (Much like other roles subforums have for various classes), but I'm afraid to make one because I know it will inevitably just be drowned out by anti-WAR hate posts from most likely 2 very vocal posters whom neither wish to create wishlist threads about their preferred jobs nor wish to create a thread to complain about WAR.

[TouchandFeel]

A shield equaling 10% max HP is functionally the same as a 10% max HP buff that heals that amount, you essentially get a temporary cushion of 10% max HP to soak damage.

Doing it as a shield basically streamlined it by removing the two-step approach of an HP buff and a heal, consolidating it into one effect and removing any other potential complications such as regens/medicas affecting the HP buff ability during it's duration and increasing its potential potency.

While asking for specifically an AoE shield wasn't common, it is pretty easy to see the translation of the asked for ideas and what was provided.

Also context matters. At the time there were a lot of tank complaint threads going on involving DRK and WAR. There was a general consensus among many if not most tanks weighing in on the issues that both WAR and DRK should get some form of AoE/Partywide utility, hence why something like a 10% HP shield didn't seem imbalanced, because all the tanks would have something fairly equivalent.

So yes WAR mains as well as other tanks in the community DID ask for SiO to be changed into an AoE utility skill akin to what we got, as well as asking for DRK to get something too. The problem was that WAR got many of the things and considerations being asked for and quite quickly and comprehensively while DRK did not get an AoE utility ability along with many of the other issues/things asked for addressed. Giving to one and not to others created the imbalance.

EDIT:

Back on the topic of PLD AoE ...
One potential issue that I see with consolidating down the AoE abilities into one that does damage and enmity is in situations there are multiple tanks, like alliance raids, and the OT PLD is spamming their AoE ability and potentially stealing threat from the MT. Then again that is really no different than DRKs and Abyssal which isn't really a problem, that and such situations are rare and the impact is pretty negligible.
Anyways, just mulling over this stuff a little.