Names After an Eternal Bond Between Sun and Moon Miqo'te

[Cabrean]

My character is a male keeper of the moon miqo'te EB'd to a female seeker of the sun miqo'te, both with lore-appropriate names.

That said, we are also a couple irl.

I want to shift my name a bit to reflect this in-game, but I'm not entirely sure what the best way to go about it would be (while breaking as few naming conventions as possible). I've searched through the forums and I failed to really find any kind of lead.

So, I come to you guys for advice.

I've considered two options, the first being to include her tribe's letter at the front of my name to show a kind of integration through EB. The second is to take her "surname" as my own surname. I've also considered just using a fantasia to become a seeker of the sun myself, but I used moon miqo'te naming conventions to include my irl mom's name in my character's forename, so I'd very much like to keep it if possible.

Those of you well-versed in miqo'te lore, what do you think I should do in this situation?

[Vidu]

It would be my understanding that neither the Seekers nor the Keepers share our idea of taking their spouses name after getting married - their societies both seem to center around either a strong mother or father figure.

Especially the Seekers dont even seem to live monogamous, as you probably know and there is no real indication (apart from the tribe-letter) that a female Miqo'te might "belong" to a male Miqo'te or rather a nunh in this case.
Taking her name - or rather: her tribe-letter - would, if you want to stay lore-conform, require you to also change your last name to either Tia or Nunh.
I would see that as a feasible option - with changing your name to Nunh being the better one, probably - seeing how a Seeker-Male can become a Nunh by leaving his tribe and starting his own family, which would be what you and your wife are kinda doing, I guess... thats probably not 100% correct lorewise, but I think its an explantion one could live with.

One other thing I could think of, that would bend the naming-conventions a bit, but would probably be the more "romantic" option is to change your surname in a way that includes her surname. Keeper naming conventions actually "require" you to have both your for- and surname include the ones of your mother. Seeing how the Keepers are so centered around mothers, I'd figure they wouldnt mind to much if one of your names would actually derive from the one that the (potenial, only figuratively speaking here) mother of your children has.
I'm not sure if this would really fit with the techincal naming-conventions of the Keepers, but I could at least see it fit with the spirit of them: A culture centered around women and your names being reflections of the two most important women in your life.

I'm not a Miqo'te-expert, but I'd figure that my first-suggestion would be the more lore-accurate one, specially if you change to a Seeker yourself. Depending on wether or not you and your wife choose to "leave" her tribe and start your own little harem (if I'm giving you ideas, I hope shes not taking that out on me...) you'd either have to change to Tia or Nunh.

Personally, I'd like the Keeper-idea better though and even if it doesnt follow the naming-conventions, I think it would be lore-conform with the matriarchal society the Keepers keep. So I'd go with that, even if its maybe less accurate.
I'm not sure how much you're into roleplaying here, but I would consider my second option also the more "natural" one for a Keeper-male if you think about how he most have grown up in a society centered around women as leaders - in the position of a Nunh or potentially even a Tia he would be thrown into a leadership-position. And without that "converting" to the Seekers way of life would mean converting to a way of life that centers around males.

In the end it comes down to what you're more comfortable with yourself, I guess - and how much you care about the implications of your name and the lore and "background" attached to it.

[Iscah]

Moonkeeper surnames are actual family names, but Sunseeker surnames are individual and it's the tribe letter that is their family name. (We were actually discussing recently here that it's likely Miqo'te would continue to carry that tribe name as a family name even if they left the tribe.)

So if you wanted to share a surname it would make more sense to both take the Moonkeeper family name.

I'm not sure you would take the Sunseeker tribe letter if you're not formally joining the tribe, but that's up to your personal take on the lore. More likely, hypothetically any children your characters might have could be given both the tribe letter and your family name, as they belong to both clans.

Taking her name - or rather: her tribe-letter - would, if you want to stay lore-conform, require you to also change your last name to either Tia or Nunh.
I would see that as a feasible option - with changing your name to Nunh being the better one, probably - seeing how a Seeker-Male can become a Nunh by leaving his tribe and starting his own family, which would be what you and your wife are kinda doing, I guess... thats probably not 100% correct lorewise, but I think its an explantion one could live with.

I don't think it would be a good idea to take the Nunh title *and* the indicator of an existing tribe - you're basically declaring yourself nunh of that tribe.

The naming lore page does mention that a tia can become a nunh by forming his own tribe (though also that it "requires several females", but we’re applying it creatively anyway), but doesn't say anything about how that tribe would be named. How do they invent a new tribe name if all the letters are already taken? Pick a syllable?

The only other non-standard name I can think of is M'zhet, who wasn't using any title when he was "out of the tribe", and it seemed to be significant when he 'reintroduced' himself to everyone as M'zhet Tia.

It's possible you could just continue to use your own surname and be clearly outside of the tribe structure.

You may also want to think about the in-story status of your wife's (and your) relationship to her tribe. Is she breaking out of a traditional tribe structure where she would have been expected to mate with the nunh, and now she's eloped with an outsider? Are they not so possessive, and fine with you "marrying into" the tribe (and not fitting the formal structure)? Or was she out on her own and belonged to X tribe "in name only" anyway? Is she proud to identify as a member of the tribe?

[Vidu]

I don't think it would be a good idea to take the Nunh title *and* the indicator of an existing tribe - you're basically declaring yourself nunh of that tribe.

The naming lore page does mention that a tia can become a nunh by forming his own tribe (though also that it "requires several females", but we’re applying it creatively anyway), but doesn't say anything about how that tribe would be named. How do they invent a new tribe name if all the letters are already taken? Pick a syllable?

Mmmh, you're probably right - I made this suggestion working on my assumption that even if a Tia starts his own tribe, he would keep the tribal letter and just settle elsewhere with his harem. I know that this hasnt been confirmed anywhere, but it made the most sense to me. Seeing how the lore also states that having more than one Nunh in a tribe is rare, we would have to conclude that either
(1) This Nunh is very, very busy when it comes to fathering children
(2) Each tribe is actually rather small.
Now, the second one makes sense when we consider the origin of the tribal letters: Seekers of the Sun reaching Eorzea after the Calamity, so it wouldnt be surprising if each tribe suffered certain loses and their numbers being extremly diminished so that the 26 letters would fit.
It would be my understanding that those letters are kinda related to certain cultural aspects of each tribe aswell though - this is just me extrapolating from the former names of the tribes that were related to certain animals. It would also not surprise me if each tribe had their little own rituals, customs etc. (But thats just me guessing or rather: Thats what I would expect, very much how real families might have their own little rituals that are carried over from one generation to the next)

I actually went out now and counted the Miqo'te of the two tribes we know off:
I counted 10 Ms - 11, including M'naago - and about 40 Miqo'te in Southern Thanalan - I was so generous here to count ALL Miqo'te in that settlement and assumed that they belong to the U-tribe, even if they didnt have names to confirm that. And even if we pad those numbers, by considering that some members might be out to hunt etc. Even if we assume 100 cats per tribe, that would leave us with merely 2600 Seekers alltogether, which puts them at the constant breach of extintion!
One little thing - a flu, a horde of wild buffalos trampling through the settling, a vulcano, a drought - could easly wipe out a whole tribe this way!

...and because of those thoughts I always kinda assumed that there might be mutliple "families" within each tribe, living far enough apart to not get into each others way and each with their own Nunh, but still using the same tribe-letter. Just how "city-cats" keep their tribe-letter aswell and pass it on.

...I could easly be completly wrong about this though, its just what would make the most sense to me: Allowing each tribe to have a significant number of members while not overwhelming one Nunh, so to speak. But I am aware that theres nothing to confirm my assumption; no mention of those customs of any kind, so this could all just be my wild idea (maybe because we're seeing just so freaking many Miqo'te that I cant imagine that their numbers would be so small... but I might be influenced by all those PCs).

Bottomline: It would most likely be "safer" to go with Tia instead of Nunh if you're marrying into the tribe. That would imply that you're not the breeding male though... not even when it comes to your wife...

I agree with Iscah - both of you taking a Moonkeeper-name would probably be more accurate.
I'm wondering right now what would happen to a Sun-Seeker girl who breeds with someone else but the Nunh anyways? Would it be tolerated because it happens so rarely (the lore-page suggests that females arent very fond of non-Nunhs)? Would she be sent away? Would her lover have to challenge the Nunh? Would her child be sent away because its not the Nunhs?
...marrying into a Keeper-family seems much easier at this point...

[Eloah]

Moonkeeper surnames are actual family names, but Sunseeker surnames are individual and it's the tribe letter that is their family name. (We were actually discussing recently here that it's likely Miqo'te would continue to carry that tribe name as a family name even if they left the tribe.)

That's slightly incorrect. The Seeker letter is their tribe, it has nothing to do with family; otherwise why wouldn't Y'shtola refer to every Y-tribe member as her sister. Granted I don't recall meeting any besides her actual sister. The Seekers family surnames are just the inverse of the Keepers, daughters get the first name of their fathers as their last name. It's specifically mentioned, in lore, that this is to show what family they belong to. And boys don't get a surname since they are considered the start of new families. This is not to say that they don't have a collective mentality of tribal preservation, it's just that individual families do still exist. They are just integrated differently because of the harem, lol.

As for the OP's question, we can see your name, but wouldn't it be helpful to know hers as well, so we can get a better idea of what we are working with? Plus you may not want s very drastic change. Sometimes you get use to a name and it's nice to use it, even if it is "fictional" in a way.

[Iscah]

That's slightly incorrect. The Seeker letter is their tribe, it has nothing to do with family; otherwise why wouldn't Y'shtola refer to every Y-tribe member as her sister. Granted I don't recall meeting any besides her actual sister.

Thankyou for catching that, I do know the difference but I phrased it badly. What I meant is, the tribe letter is functionally similar to a family name - passed down over generations, part of every person's name, and the most reliable indicator that person A might be related to person B with the same name-element.

And actually, Y'shtola and Y'mhitra are only half-sisters by the same father (according to the Lv57 quest "Lost in the Lifestream"), so it's quite possible that all of a nunh's children count themselves as siblings.

(Also while we haven't had any real interaction with other Y tribe members, there's a Y'shuwahe sitting at Apkallu Falls near Jonathas, and not that far from Y'mhitra. I don't think she's ever been involved in a quest. Also a Y'myhoi in Limsa who seems to be part of a pirate crew.)


My general impression of tribe structure isn't "a group of individual families centred around the nunh", but one large extended family with a lot of interaction. Mothers might still have 'their own' children within the larger structure, but aunts could be sharing a lot of the child-raising duties while individuals go hunting.

It's specifically mentioned, in lore, that this is to show what family they belong to.

Where are you getting this phrasing from? I checked the naming conventions, which say it's "the first name of the tribe’s breeding male who sired her", and the lorebook, which says it's a "patronymic taken from the breeding male". Nothing about families that I would consider a "specific mention".

You can infer it from the statement in the naming conventions that "males do not take family names, as they are each considered the 'origins' of new families", but then females don't really take family names either, except a short-term tracking of a single generation.

If a new nunh takes over the tribe, there are still going to be family bonds from the old nunh, and it becomes even more of a tangled family web, but there's no real split between family members with different patronymics.



For how this would play out...

Say we have two women from a tribe, X'amneko and X'brohka. They both have a child with X'aba Nunh. Then a new nunh X'bhen takes over and they both have another child.

So now we have:
X'amneko and her daughters X'delika Aba and X'ebaloh Bhen
X'brohka and her daughters X'ghonako Aba and X'hahtoa Bhen

Each girl has two half-sisters in different directions, and their surnames don't really define "families within the tribe" because it's more like an interlocking grid. The names just track which nunh was their father. (Unless of course they only count the nunh-and-children as "a family" and the mothers aren't really considered part of a family unit.)

Meanwhile they all have the X tribe indicator that marks them as part of this complex family relationship that is spread across the entire X tribe. That's why I consider it to be the "family name", or equal to it.


Also I may have just spent an hour trawling through the character database to compile a list of Sunseeker NPC names so I could give accurate examples. Please send help. :/

[LineageRazor]

Vidu brings up an interesting point about the size of tribes. If we're locked down to 26 tribes, and each has only one or two Nuhns, either the overall population of Sunseekers in the world is dangerously low - a couple thousand, tops. That's low enough to be considered an endangered species.

I've always considered locations AND populations in this game to be "scaled down" from the in-game reality. For example, you can walk the span of Uldah in a minute or two, and talk to less than a hundred NPCs there, but it's meant to be a huge city. I interpret this to mean it IS a huge city, but for gameplay reasons it's represented as small enough for us to manage easily. However, the strict limit on Sunseeker tribes and number of Nuhns is troubling. It's tough to scale that up while continuing to follow the lore that's been established for them. Once you start getting into the realm of a few thousand females per breeding male, the eyebrows begin to raise.

Also, while we know that some tribes DO support multiple Nuhns, I don't think we've ever really established how they come about? Maybe a Tia challenges a Nuhn, loses, but puts on a good enough show that a number of females (feeling neglected by inattention from the overworked Nuhn) figure he's good enough?

[Vidu]

Vidu brings up an interesting point about the size of tribes. If we're locked down to 26 tribes, and each has only one or two Nuhns, either the overall population of Sunseekers in the world is dangerously low - a couple thousand, tops. That's low enough to be considered an endangered species.

I've always considered locations AND populations in this game to be "scaled down" from the in-game reality. For example, you can walk the span of Uldah in a minute or two, and talk to less than a hundred NPCs there, but it's meant to be a huge city. I interpret this to mean it IS a huge city, but for gameplay reasons it's represented as small enough for us to manage easily. However, the strict limit on Sunseeker tribes and number of Nuhns is troubling. It's tough to scale that up while continuing to follow the lore that's been established for them. Once you start getting into the realm of a few thousand females per breeding male, the eyebrows begin to raise.

Yeah, excatly my point.
I'm totally willing to accept that they're only showing us 10 M-tribe Miqo'te and scale that up to 100 in my head, all living scattered around, being put to hunt etc.
I can accept an extra 90 Miqos per Nunh - I'm having trouble with accepting an extra 900...

So I kinda always assumed that there would be "branch"-tribes.

...having only 26 (or lets say up to 40, because mutliple Nunhs do seem to exist) breeding males also sounds kinda dangerous for the genpool - assuming that there are genpools in Eorzea, like in the real world. I'm pretty sure any real qorld population with only 40 breeding males would be considered endangered.
Even with the down scaling for gameplay-reasons... it just doesnt add up!

[ObsidianFire]

Here's the list of all the names in the name generator: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...lrH8NVXW4DsQ4A

The biggest thing to take away from it is that there's only 100 names per race per gender. So there's only 100 female miqo'te names in the name generator. This means that there are plenty more valid, lore friendly names of some races, they just aren't in the name generator due to space.

For the Seeker miqo'te in particular, it's very easy to make up your own lore friendly names by swapping the tribal letter for a different one, or make more male names by adding a tribal letter to female "last names". For Keeper males, it's pretty easy to make new names by changing the birth order suffix to a different one.

I think there's lots more miquote tribes then we see in-game. Either that or most tribes probably have many Nuhns. The M tribe specifically said it had two Nuhns because at one point it was much larger then it currently is. So tribe size seems to be a factor in how many Nuhns a given tribe has. But I think it's more likely that there's just multiple tribes that start with the same letter. Over long periods of time, tribes would grow and it would probably get to the point that the tribe would split to prevent there being too many people in one place. Maybe from personal conflicts, maybe because so many people need more resources then the land can provide.

It's worth keeping in mind that the Miqo'te migrated to Eorzea in the ice age. At the time, the Seekers probably did have only 26 tribes. I can't see their numbers becoming smaller then that...

[Iscah]

Pedantic spellchecker: A few people are writing "nuhn" but it should be "nunh".

I've always considered locations AND populations in this game to be "scaled down" from the in-game reality. For example, you can walk the span of Uldah in a minute or two, and talk to less than a hundred NPCs there, but it's meant to be a huge city. I interpret this to mean it IS a huge city, but for gameplay reasons it's represented as small enough for us to manage easily. However, the strict limit on Sunseeker tribes and number of Nuhns is troubling. It's tough to scale that up while continuing to follow the lore that's been established for them. Once you start getting into the realm of a few thousand females per breeding male, the eyebrows begin to raise.

For working out the overall scale of the world, I've wondered (but haven't tested) if you could calculate it based on the speed of the ingame clock. So the ingame time that passes in the minute or two that it takes you to travel somewhere is how long it really would have taken.

It's like a subtle version of an RPG overworld map where your character might be the same size as an entire town, and you can run across the entire continent in a minute or two.



On scaling Seeker tribes specifically, the naming conventions page says that "a ratio of one nunh per ten to fifty females is average" (and a rather wide average!).

Also, we need to keep in mind that the number of nunh is not quite equivalent to the number of viable breeding males in the species - it's the number of males currently culturally permitted to be breeding males. If one dies, a tia steps up into that spot and the number doesn't change. There are also 'roaming' tias and adventurers who might be outside of the tribe structure.

Still, a quick Wikipedia search suggests that medieval European population (probably the best analogue) is still counted in millions, and the biggest Miqo'te count of a few thousand sounds rather low.... but then again if it's a very stable small population, perhaps that's enough?

Population scale is pretty hard to comprehend for worldbuilding.