[dev1033] Ideas for a Two-Tier Class System: Jobs on Top of Weapon Specializations

[Arcell]

I don't like the Ragnarok style job system simple because once you take a job down a path you can't go back. FFXI and FFXIV have allowed free choice as far as classes go. You're never restricted (by the game) in what you can do and that's part of why I love them. I hate being forced to make alts just to try a new class.

[Cairdeas]

I don't like the Ragnarok style job system simple because once you take a job down a path you can't go back. FFXI and FFXIV have allowed free choice as far as classes go. You're never restricted (by the game) in what you can do and that's part of why I love them. I hate being forced to make alts just to try a new class.

Exactly, Which is why the Jobs ontop of Weapons proposal works so well. It still maintains those choices.

[Augury]

In my opinion-
Bard should be defined by a Bardsong skill set- and nothing else. I think this is simply what is best for the game; as devoted "support" jobs have a habit of ruining a game dynamic before it exists. A bard should be able to function well with whichever available weapon they choose (sword and bow would be my choices in the bard's available weapons), and should probably function more closer to what is traditionally a "rogue" than some of us may be comfortable with. But the instrument-weapon idea shouldn't be a factor only on the grounds that an instrument is not a practical weapon or crafting tool, and the bard could function on song-skills without having to give up DoW abilities which enable it to hold it's own.

Let's be honest though, this game is a sequel- and the more a sequel becomes like it's predecessor, the more downhill things tend to go. The object here is familiarity without repetition, (EG: Take out Ninja, but give Thieves/Glad ability to tote 2-handed "Twin Sword" weapons which work on a double-strike mechanic)

[Cairdeas]

As far as Bard and classes (SMN, BLU, BST, etc.) that might similarly pose questions about how they might be implemented, the devs are going to have three choices doing a system similar to this one:

1) add them as a weapon class
2) add them as a job
3) keep them out of the game

The more complex they make jobs, the more they'll be able to just introduce them through job system. If they make jobs really simple, like a title that just gives you general passive traits/bonuses, then these things would have to be introduced somehow with the

I think the best thing to do with those "Specific" style jobs like Blu and Bard is to blend them with similar tasks to make the Weapon class then have the Job for each specialization.

Bard, Gambler, Corsair, Beast Master, Puppetmaster could all stem from the same Weapon Class "Entertainer" while Each of those Jobs is its own job.

Same with how I described how they could implement Ninja, Samurai, Mystic Knight with Oriental Weapons being used by the "Vagrant" weapon class. http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ing-SAM-NIN%29

For things like Blue Mage, You can mix Blue Mage, Geomancer, and some of the Beastmaster skills together into a Weapon Class then let players build the core Blue Mage, Geomancer, Beastmaster jobs out of it and pull whats missing from that weapon class for those jobs from other weapon classes. .

[Carpe]

I think the best thing to do with those "Specific" style jobs like Blu and Bard is to blend them with similar tasks to make the Weapon class then have the Job for each specialization.

Bard, Gambler, Corsair, Beast Master, Puppetmaster could all stem from the same Weapon Class "Entertainer" while Each of those Jobs is its own job.

Same with how I described how they could implement Ninja, Samurai, Mystic Knight with Oriental Weapons being used by the "Vagrant" weapon class. http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ing-SAM-NIN%29

For things like Blue Mage, You can mix Blue Mage, Geomancer, and some of the Beastmaster skills together into a Weapon Class then let players build the core Blue Mage, Geomancer, Beastmaster jobs out of it and pull whats missing from that weapon class for those jobs from other weapon classes. .

I can see them adding weapon classes like "Entertainer" and "Vagrant" like you're suggesting. But I could also see how some of these jobs like Bard, Summoner, etc. could just be added as jobs. I think it just comes down to how much complexity they are going to allow the job system, the more minimalist jobs are (ex. just a title with some passives) the more they'll have to rely on the armory class to introduce new "class mechanics". But if they allow a significant degree of complexity to jobs (their own skill learning system with sufficient number of skills to use) then they could be introduced just as jobs.

With the "Entertainer" solution, the Bard Job is going to have a very strong incentive to use the Entertainer weapon with that job, which makes sense. Packing those skills into the Job system means you can have more incentive to mix the Job with different weapons like having Bard/Pugilist for a melee Bard or Bard/Arcanist for mage Bard.

That's why I hope they post more info about how the job system is going to work because until we see that we can't really figure out what kind of solutions would make more sense.

[Sasagawa]

Im not saying it wouldn't work, just saying it may be too complicated for SE to realistically implement and explain.

we already know they are striving for individuality or jobs.

so maybe it would make sense that when u get to 50 glad u get the option of levelling advanced jobs with non transferable skills from 50-80 ?

similar to raganarok but u can go back and try all the jobs.

I dont think it will be something so complicated but I would like to see your system in action sounds great.

[Carpe]

Im not saying it wouldn't work, just saying it may be too complicated for SE to realistically implement and explain.

we already know they are striving for individuality or jobs.

so maybe it would make sense that when u get to 50 glad u get the option of levelling advanced jobs with non transferable skills from 50-80 ?

similar to raganarok but u can go back and try all the jobs.

I dont think it will be something so complicated but I would like to see your system in action sounds great.

I don't think it would be any easier to implement Ragnarok-style job advancements and the Ragnarok system itself I think is way more complicated than this. Also, very few people will want to wait till level 50 to advance their class, so they'll probably have to rework all the classes so that they go to 1-20 or 1-30 then advance into something else after that. They don't have to do it that way of course they can keep you leveling your weapon class from 1-50 but have you been pick your advancement by adding a job from 20-50+ or 30-50+ (teaches you unique skills) while still developing your core/swappable skills through your base weapon class (this is alot like SWTOR system: http://www.swtor.com/info/systems/advanced-classes), but then you'll have something pretty similar to this, but more restrictive since I'm assuming an advanced job is going to be advancing from only one base class, whereas this system let's you match a job with any weapon class, after unlocking the job through learning certain skills fundamental to that job.

Another thing they could do would be a more minimalist approach then either of these ideas and just have a job have no levels, kind of like Sorel's ROLE system post on Eorzeapedia and Eremor's idea where you had to have your core job abilities set to use a title that gave you mostly passive bonuses to improve your ability to perform a role. I think the more minimalist you go though, then basically your're going to have to be adding all your class content in the form of new weapon classes, which is going to make adding classes like Beastmaster and Summoner more difficult.

I wouldn't die if they did an advancement system like SWTOR but I think it would be more fun and make more sense for this game if you had the ability to play around with different combinations to customize your character like you would be able to in the OP system.

[Augury]

I personally do not think any form of "tiered" job system would be good for the game- as it asserts the combination of ROLE, JOB and CLASS into one package and thus forsakes the malleability of a non-tiered job system, where job and role are a matter of whim, and disciplines function to make jobs more playable. In this respect I think it would be silly to treat "job" as a funneling device, and while it worked fantastically for RO, it also crushed Ragnarok when Transcendent Jobs were added- effectively ending Ragnarok's golden age.

I am of the opinion, that a job system should create the permanence which the original design was afraid to put in- however instead of tiers jobs should share "families" which allow them to interact with one another. I would propose a 12 job system, with 3 families of 4 jobs- 4 permanent pieces of character development which are honed by armory skills and put through 4 jobs to allow the player to fully realize their character. After undertaking a job- the player may ONLY switch to jobs within the same family

Family A (Warriors)
Paladin/Templar
Dragoon
Soldier
Hunter

Family B (Ascetics)
Thief
Monk
Berserker
Geomancer/Devout

Family C (Casters)
Summoner
Sage
Dark Knight
Red Mage/Sorcerer

Just another twist on it I suppose....

[Cairdeas]

I personally do not think any form of "tiered" job system would be good for the game- as it asserts the combination of ROLE, JOB and CLASS into one package and thus forsakes the malleability of a non-tiered job system, where job and role are a matter of whim, and disciplines function to make jobs more playable. In this respect I think it would be silly to treat "job" as a funneling device, and while it worked fantastically for RO, it also crushed Ragnarok when Transcendent Jobs were added- effectively ending Ragnarok's golden age.

I am of the opinion, that a job system should create the permanence which the original design was afraid to put in- however instead of tiers jobs should share "families" which allow them to interact with one another. I would propose a 12 job system, with 3 families of 4 jobs- 4 permanent pieces of character development which are honed by armory skills and put through 4 jobs to allow the player to fully realize their character. After undertaking a job- the player may ONLY switch to jobs within the same family

Family A (Warriors)
Paladin/Templar
Dragoon
Soldier
Hunter

Family B (Ascetics)
Thief
Monk
Berserker
Geomancer/Devout

Family C (Casters)
Summoner
Sage
Dark Knight
Red Mage/Sorcerer

Just another twist on it I suppose....

No. Please no.
I don't want anything to be Permanent.

It goes against the spirit of both the Job system from past FF games and the Armoury System.