1.20a tomorrow :D

[AdvancedWind]

But every class learns at least one non-TP based ability before level 6. And level 6 takes like, 20 minutes to reach even for a new player. Btw, only lancer takes that much to learn a non-TP skill, however even their level 1 weaponskill has positional bonus. The Level 2, by the way, has a bonus when used from behind. Guess how you should initiate combat whenever you have spill over TP from the previous fight?

Now, we can all argue that there's no TP-free attack ability, which is true. However, why exactly is that "bad"? Even at low levels, when fighting an even match mob, you need 3 attacks tops to reach 1.000TP, which then can be used to combo into two weaponskills at lower levels, 3 when higher. Also, many enemies have skills that can be avoided, so if you are just standing still and doing nothing while charging up TP, you are likely doing it wrong. Yes, server lag screws that up currently, but this should be much more important (and easier to do) when 2.0 hits. And Yes, Invigorate exists and this game *does* encourage us to level multiple classes. Heck, they even made 90% of the cross classable skills obtainable before level 30, and some of the most useful ones (Second Wind, Invigorate, Cure, Sentinel) are relatively low level.

Also, when leveling up normally, more often than not you will end battles with extra TP to spare - so, most of the time, you *can* start a battle right away with a weaponskill

I do not stand still waiting on TP with my level 10 marauder. I'm always buffing up, trying to use Brutal Swing from the sides for the extra damage, using Heavy Swing => Skull Sunder combo every 10 seconds or so, trying to avoid a few enemy attacks, etc, etc. I may not be always proactively using skills all the time, but I'm not just standing still either.

FFXIV does take a different approach when it comes to skill usage. You are not supposed to trounce everything with skills all the time, specially not at the beginning of a fight. Sure, you can burn up your MP as a mage, but you will need to recover afterwards. Melees, however, have to build up a resource beforehand - and then are able to use several skills in succession via combos, before having to rebuff, evade enemy attacks and ready up for another chain.

It's a somewhat different philosophy and surely there will be people wishing for a much faster combat, but then it's a matter of personal taste and not exactly a flaw within the game. Not saying the current system has no flaws, but it's far from being broken and completely dull.

[Rowyne]

Now, we can all argue that there's no TP-free attack ability, which is true.

Okay, now we're on the same page. Don't you agree it's much better to be civil than say someone's opinions are worthless and should be ignored?

This is the heart of the melee combat issue for me.

However, why exactly is that "bad"? Even at low levels, when fighting an even match mob, you need 3 attacks tops to reach 1.000TP, which then can be used to combo into two weaponskills at lower levels, 3 when higher.

I think you just answered your own question. Three auto-attacks before you can do anything. In an MMO, that's an eternity.

I understand what you're saying. That you should be moving and buffing and using reactive skills in the meantime. And now cross-classing isn't an option, it's a must. But it doesn't take away from the fact that melee now cannot actively initiate combat with an attack ability unless you have a level 14 Lancer skill or TP stored from a previous fight. And the reason that is bad is that it makes combat feel non-interactive.

FFXIV does take a different approach when it comes to skill usage. You are not supposed to trounce everything with skills all the time, specially not at the beginning of a fight. Sure, you can burn up your MP as a mage, but you will need to recover afterwards. Melees, however, have to build up a resource beforehand - and then are able to use several skills in succession via combos, before having to rebuff, evade enemy attacks and ready up for another chain.

It's a somewhat different philosophy and surely there will be people wishing for a much faster combat, but then it's a matter of personal taste and not exactly a flaw within the game. Not saying the current system has no flaws, but it's far from being broken and completely dull.

It's certainly a different approach, one that's definitely not for me. I thought combat was too slow before. Now it feels even slower. It's worse than FFXI, and I didn't think that was possible. It's like being stuck in a Goku power-up when I just want to jump into the fray. >.<

I'm happy for the people who like this style of combat. I will, however, be genuinely surprised if it appeals to more than the niche market this game caters to that grows smaller and smaller as time goes on.

My husband and I had been on the fence about subscribing come Jan 6th, but 1.20 was the nail in the coffin. I'll continue to watch the patch notes and hope that the dev team make changes that restore some non-TP active attack abilities. If not, no matter how many good things come in 2.0, it's hard to play if you don't enjoy combat.

[AdvancedWind]

I understand what you're saying. That you should be moving and buffing and using reactive skills in the meantime. And now cross-classing isn't an option, it's a must.

Hardly. In fact, they made it so cross classing is not that important as before, and made it far easier to get the really useful skills. Before, you had to level several melee classes to learn plenty of buffs and different weaponskills, and the less is said about Quickstride, Chameleon, Sentinel or Cure III, the better. A Gladiator was pretty much forced to level Marauder and Pugilist to tank

Nowadays, unless you *really* want to, you can easily do a reasonably good job for most of the game just learning cure (losing all 5 minutes of your life to do so), and if you want other skills, you can learn most of the useful ones before level 20.

If they dumb down the cross classing any further, they should just do away with the system entirely and lose one of the (imo) best points of the game.

But it doesn't take away from the fact that melee now cannot actively initiate combat with an attack ability unless you have a level 14 Lancer skill or TP stored from a previous fight. And the reason that is bad is that it makes combat feel non-interactive

Combat suddenly becomes non-interactive because you're not using an attack skill all the time?

I refer to my previous post: Most of the time, you should be moving around, buffing up, evading moves and etc for optmal performance. Selecting >awesomeweaponskill II isn't the only kind of interaction possible.

[Coglin]

Now, we can all argue that there's no TP-free attack ability, which is true.

Okay, now we're on the same page. Don't you agree it's much better to be civil than say someone's opinions are worthless and should be ignored?

My biggest issue, one that cannot be circumvented, is the fact that you can no longer use any abilities to actively initiate combat.

Now see, this is where I take issue. There are TP-free attack ability, again if you had any experience with mellee classes, you may or may not know this. There are at least 5.

Also, its not so much that people are calling your opinion worthless, they are calling it flat out invalid. Frankly with good reason, the vast majority of you post here have flat out wrong informaion. Meaning you clearly do not have a working knowledge of the subject you wish to lecture on.

Stood over my husband's shoulder and watched him.

SO the heck what? I watched my wife make an ice sculpture once to. That by al means does not mean I have the experience or knowledge to go to an ice sculpture forums and post lectures.

Your post contain misinformation after misinformation after misinformation. its not your opinion thats getting you personally attacked. Its the fact that you do not appear to know what you are talking about that gets you attacked. Then you further attempt to defend you post of misinformation. Its a Fact that there are at least 5 abilities to initiate combat with 0 TP.

No one is telling you to shut up and get out

We are telling you to get a clue or shut up nd get out.

[AdvancedWind]

Now see, this is where I take issue. There are TP-free attack ability, again if you had any experience with mellee classes, you may or may not know this. There are at least 5.

Uhh...

There are no TP free attack skills, bro. The closest we have are the reactionary skills, and they still use 250/500TP.

[Coglin]

Uhh...

There are no TP free attack skills, bro. The closest we have are the reactionary skills, and they still use 250/500TP.

You sir are wrong.

Example of one
Light Shot
Optimal Level : 1
Delivers a ranged atack

Also, there are 4 more that are avaliable cross class to any class, that I can think of off the top of my head, I would have to log in game to check if there are more.

[AdvancedWind]

You sir are wrong.

Example of one
Light Shot
Optimal Level : 1
Delivers a ranged atack

Also, there are 4 more that are avaliable cross class to any class, that I can think of off the top of my head, I would have to log in game to check if there are more.

...

Light Shot is the archer regular shot, it doesn't really count. All the other skills you are looking for are likely old Guild Mark abilities, those have either been removed or became weaponskills.

[Coglin]

...

Light Shot is the archer regular shot, it doesn't really count. All the other skills you are looking for are likely old Guild Mark abilities, those have either been removed or became weaponskills.

Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa, how dose is not count ? It initiated battle with no training point cost, and its on a DoW. That fits the 2 pre-req of the debate in which you and another garunteed previously do not exist. I also know for a fact that I have 4, none TP requiring abilitied avaliable to my PGL, MRD, and GLD, that are initial attacks.

No sir, I am not mistaken, Nothing I refere to is "most likely" guildmarks or anything else.

Perhaps some folks need to get in game and use some of the abilities , check out some of what crosses classes, and learn the system a little more, before attempting to educate the community. At this point all thats occuring is the purpetuation of misinformation.

[Rowyne]

You sir are wrong.

Example of one
Light Shot
Optimal Level : 1
Delivers a ranged atack

Also, there are 4 more that are avaliable cross class to any class, that I can think of off the top of my head, I would have to log in game to check if there are more.

I could be a right biotch and laugh at the irony of this, but I have no desire to embarrass you.

You might want to check the patch notes.

Light Shot is Archer exclusive. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that means it cannot be cross-classed. That means melee can't use it, and we're talking about melee here, not ranged.

Also, could you specifically cite the 4 other non-TP melee attack abilities? I wouldn't want to perpetuate misinformation.