I guess it's time

[Velhart]

They didn't remake the game for free, they took their fan's money to do it. The fans they then chose to ignore in beta and beyound in favour of chasing Wow's subscriber base. Which even after all this they have failed to do. I think alot of us would be happy with just having an acknowledgement of the issues and a nod that they will work on fixing those issues as they move forward.

Last I recall on the beta forums the general feedback was positive and more negativity on the technical side. And the threads actually arguing that its not 1.23/FFXI, Yoshi-P gave a really long post in why the direction they went in is better in the long run than the one set in 1.0 and it made complete sense.

Also, SE took a major gamble recreating the game mostly from the ground up and did put them even more in the red till the game was a success and their arcade sales both putting the company back in the green. I doubt they funded the game with 6-months worth of subscription money from the roughly 10-20k people who actively played 1.0 during that period.

snip

I can respect your attempt to keep the peace, but if you had not seen the history of these forums. Asking for any remote form of change leads to a discussion like this. I am clearly guilty of throwing gas into the fire, but you shouldn't be disappointed in how it turned out. You want change, you got people talking. Granted, the bad ideas outweigh the good ones in here, but that is how this forum in particular works.

[Ryel]

Last I recall on the beta forums the general feedback was positive and more negativity on the technical side. And the threads actually arguing that its not 1.23/FFXI, Yoshi-P gave a really long post in why the direction they went in is better in the long run than the one set in 1.0 and it made complete sense.

Would you mind linking this statement or at the very least quoting it? Because i can remember the opposite with a large amount of backlash in response to the "dumbing down" of certain systems and the nerfing of early game beta content on the forums even on non battle activities like the changes to fishing.

Many of these forum threads and official interviews promised features or changes to make up for many of these issues in the first expansion (Heavensward) and now that we're nearing the end of that expansion there are a lot of things that were on the table that we've yet to hear anything about, were dropped, or were changed entirely.

Game content like hamlet defense and chocobo escorts that we had in 1.0 (supposed to be readded as fates but weren't really) or systems like add-on support, FC primal summoning, FC alliances or heck even job additions like new summons for summoner were scrapped entirely in favor of "egi glamours" which have been delayed multiple patches in the name of balance.

So i would be curious where the better direction statement comes from, additionally Yoshida being the producer/director of the game isn't going to come out and say that the product is inferior or that the direction is worse than that of it's competition, even if that competition is produced by the same company, he may admit certain mistakes in development philosophy and how they plan to adjust it going forward but that's about the extent of it.

[Velhart]

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I cannot because all data from the beta forums is gone and was against the ToS to release information outside the beta to the public. Anyone who was active during the beta forums should know about it.

Can you please explain exactly which content you are referring to in regards they promised for Heavensward? I don't remember things like add-on's getting a specific date.

Yea....I will take job balancing as a priority over egi-glamour any day. They also explained why having a whole new summon pet is not a good idea unless they have something that can balance the other three. It is actually a good idea (for now) to not have something come in. Ultimately, I am willing to bet people care about the glamour more than adding all new modes to the SMN pet system.

If you can find someone who recorded all the beta forum messages and shared them to the public (which wasn't allowed to remind you), then more power to you.

[Ryel]

I cannot because all data from the beta forums is gone and was against the ToS to release information outside the beta to the public. Anyone who was active during the beta forums should know about it.

Can you please explain exactly which content you are referring to in regards they promised for Heavensward? I don't remember things like add-on's getting a specific date.

Yea....I will take job balancing as a priority over egi-glamour any day. They also explained why having a whole new summon pet is not a good idea unless they have something that can balance the other three. It is actually a good idea (for now) to not have something come in. Ultimately, I am willing to bet people care about the glamour more than adding all new modes to the SMN pet system.

I was around and i simply do not remember the wording of the post.

Add-on support got multiple release dates starting from like... 2.2? each time getting pushed back further until they stopped listing one altogether, I'll have to hunt for the comments. New Egi's were initially promised for Heavensward and never happened with their stance changing during the middle of 3.0 from new Egi's to Egi glamours.

Also as a former summoner main I can say that I personally would have preferred NEW summons over a glamour system as 2/3 of our current summons are almost entirely useless outside of niche situations, the job might as well not even be called summoner with how one dimensional it performs when compared to something like WoW's Warlock or XI's Summoner (though the latter had many balance issues). It's a topic that was beaten to death during the 2.xx era by many other posters until a large amount of the vocal SMN population most likely just got fed up with their complaints falling on deaf ears and either moved on or are waiting to see what happens.

I can't speak for them however.

You seem to take developer word as law which is the main folly many posters seem to do here as if this MMO exists in a vacuum (it doesn't), a large number of the complaints and comparisons to other games are made because many players have seen a quite a few of their suggestions actually put into action and working in similar circumstances and environments.

This even goes for the casual non-battle content.

Like can anyone explain why something like chocobo raising in XIV's gold saucer is straight up inferior to it's XI counterpart? I personally can't yet we have stuff like LoV which is all but dead in it's support instead.

How about fishing?

So yeah just because the developers explain why they feel a certain game system might not be interesting or may be hard to work with, doesn't mean that's actually the truth of the case.

[FallenArisen0990]

Text.

Aww that's cute. Do you feel better now?

Edit: There was a picture that either Patch 3.2 or 3.3 was suppose to be a giant QoL patch. Been trying to find it for the longest. Wasn't surprised they changed their minds after that.

[KitingGenbu]

...we have stuff like LoV which is all but dead in it's support instead.

I think many of us are trying to forget LoV existed. Even the explaination of it sounded like it was dead before it was released since they kept mentioning it wouldn't be player controlled.

The main issue with new content is the rewards since rewards have always been questionable at best. How people can grind for a relic in this game knowing its just gonna be glamour later on, is beyond me. Honestly people wont care if you have it even if you can augment the stats. 'Ilvl' is the first thing that comes to the average 'hardcore' player verses your accuracy/crit/etc. Full skill speed drg ftw as long as you're 240 right?

[Velhart]

You seem to take developer word as law which is the main folly many posters seem to do here as if this MMO exists in a vacuum (it doesn't), a large number of the complaints and comparisons to other games are made because many players have seen a quite a few of their suggestions actually put into action and working in similar circumstances and environments.

I only go by what makes sense logically in the name of balance between the three play styles. You don't know what I think about the situation, despite giving my stance on multiple occasions. I have more problems with this game than you think. I just know what is realistic, and what isn't. To begin, the only real comparisons I have seen done here is for FFXI. A game with a completely different foundation and ideals that most of it's systems and content cannot be translated into this game unless you make drastic alterations to how this game's foundation works. Also without controversy and horrific balance issues. Notice the comparisons have drawn all to that and little bit of GW2, which I have not commented on because my knowledge of that game is not enough to warrant a proper response to it. I've backed up what I said based off the history of my experience from 2003 to 2010 and how it affected players and the game during that time period. Feel free to disagree, but I am not the one wearing rose-tinted glasses here.

Aww that's cute. Do you feel better now?

Edit: There was a picture that either Patch 3.2 or 3.3 was suppose to be a giant QoL patch. Been trying to find it for the longest. Wasn't surprised they changed their minds after that.

You start making less sense the more you post. Also, ever major patch has QoL adjustments, so what are you talking about?

[Ryel]

I only go by what makes sense logically in the name of balance between the three play styles. You don't know what I think about the situation, despite giving my stance on multiple occasions. I have more problems with this game than you think. I just know what is realistic, and what isn't. To begin, the only real comparisons I have seen done here is for FFXI. A game with a completely different foundation and ideals that most of it's systems and content cannot be translated into this game unless you make drastic alterations to how this game's foundation works. Also without controversy and horrific balance issues. Notice the comparisons have drawn all to that and little bit of GW2, which I have not commented on because my knowledge of that game is not enough to warrant a proper response to it. I've backed up what I said based off the history of my experience from 2003 to 2010 and how it affected players and the game during that time period. Feel free to disagree, but I am not the one wearing rose-tinted glasses here.

Well based on this comment alone I'll disagree because the post you quoted and snipped made a direct comparison with XIV's SMN to WoW's Warlock, which is likely the class it was heavily inspired by, other comparisons have been made to WoW's systems because that is the MMO this game has been trying it's hardest to emulate for the Japanese audience by developer admission, other comparisons are made to XI because it's the game this company has 11+ years of MMO experience with at this point.

You make not like it but if you preface every response with "But Yoshida said.." and "The Developers have said.." without actually adding more of your own views you can hardly fault others for drawing the conclusion that you barely have any at all despite your other posts and you are far from the first in this thread to do so. If you'd like to change this perception please feel free to continue to talk about some of these subjects in detail without falling back on developer comments because those will obviously be biased towards the game and the conversation as a whole will be better for it.

Additionally it's not a matter of rose tinted glasses to make purely objective comparisons when it comes to the execution of content (which is not the same as subjective enjoyment), I know it's easy to make a statement like that rather than actually try to make a counter to the points raised but there are many systems designed by the same company that are done much better in their previous MMO compared to their newer one, the chocobo raising one is a major example of this until XIV's chocobo raising system (or whatever it becomes in the future) is further developed, or fishing which is objectively a straight downgrade mechanically and for some players also subjectively from 1.0's system for no other reason than Yoshida felt we shouldn't be pressing all that many buttons for a "relaxing" activity.

I've said it earlier in this thread but nobody is expecting 1:1 conversions of XI's, WoW's, or GW2's content systems to suddenly be dropped in XIV and work in an entirely different framework, but it doesn't make much sense for some of the content we have that is obviously similar to that created in other games to feel.. lackluster in it's execution.

[Velhart]

Well based on this comment alone I'll disagree because the post you quoted and snipped made a direct comparison with XIV's SMN to WoW's Warlock, which is likely the class it was heavily inspired by, other comparisons have been made to WoW's systems because that is the MMO this game has been trying it's hardest to emulate for the Japanese audience by developer admission, other comparisons are made to XI because it's the game this company has 11+ years of MMO experience with at this point.

I said said in that very post "for now". Also while it is similar and inspired by WoW's Warlock, you simply cannot compare the two, because this game does not have a talent tree system (or whatever WoW uses now), which properly supports multiple type of summons. The jump from lv.60 to 70 may offer something to make it more open to summons beyond tanking, ranged, and melee. However I simply do not see it. I am legitimately curious what additional summon with the current system in place can be done beyond what I just mentioned, because honestly I would love to be wrong. I would like to see more summons personally, but on a objective standpoint I don't see the reason to.

You make not like it but if you preface every response with "But Yoshida said.." and "The Developers have said.." without actually adding more of your own views you can hardly fault others for drawing the conclusion that you barely have any at all despite your other posts and you are far from the first in this thread to do so. If you'd like to change this perception please feel free to continue to talk about some of these subjects in detail without falling back on developer comments because those will obviously be biased towards the game and the conversation as a whole will be better for it.

Because every single time I mentioned that is because again, people in here only drawing comparisons to FFXI, which is pretty much keeps noting to their initial response regarding it. I don't agree with them and always willing to point out their nonsense like how raid structure should be or how relics were dumbed down immensely. Since I happen to agree with them on this topic, or the general topic of balance in MMO's, does not mean I agree with everything. If I truly believed that, I wouldn't traverse the forums like I do. I would just assume everything is perfect and not bother to. Again, do not pretend you know how I feel towards this game.

Additionally it's not a matter of rose tinted glasses to make purely objective comparisons when it comes to the execution of content (which is not the same as subjective enjoyment), I know it's easy to make a statement like that rather than actually try to make a counter to the points raised but there are many systems designed by the same company that are done much better in their previous MMO compared to their newer one, the chocobo raising one is a major example of this until XIV's chocobo raising system (or whatever it becomes in the future) is further developed, or fishing which is objectively a straight downgrade mechanically and for some players also subjectively from 1.0's system for no other reason than Yoshida felt we shouldn't be pressing all that many buttons for a "relaxing" activity.

I have countered the points several times if you actually read everything I have posted here. It always comes back "it will work because I say it will work". No one here has legitimately countered my claims and why they would actually be better for the game beyond their own sense of nostalgia. Not once in here. If these systems are not niche at best, then tell me how it balances on a casual, midcore, and hardcore level. No one can answer it because they don't know how to.

Secondly, you assume I will automatically dismiss something because it is FFXI. Far from the truth. I have proposed Nyzul Isle/Salvage like content for quite a while and have explained how they work in the context of this game. Not saying what I said got to the developers, but similar suggestions led to Palace of the Dead, which is pretty similar to that. The suggestions you have given now I actually have nothing against, because I would like more depth to chocobo raising/racing to make it more interesting. What is ironic is that FFXI has actually a lot of good about it and I could post ideas from it easily, but what others suggest in here is exactly what was negative about the game. Again, quick to judge. Take the facts, and simply counter argue.

I've said it earlier in this thread but nobody is expecting 1:1 conversions of XI's, WoW's, or GW2's content systems to suddenly be dropped in XIV and work in an entirely different framework, but it doesn't make much sense for some of the content we have that is obviously similar to that created in other games to feel.. lackluster in it's execution.

You would be surprised on the mind set of some in here. I will not ever say something is a bad idea simply because it came from another title. I will however call you out if you think tearing down a technically working foundation for one that can be considered niche at best is a great idea, then be prepared to be challenged on that.

[Ryel]

I said said in that very post "for now". Also while it is similar and inspired by WoW's Warlock, you simply cannot compare the two, because this game does not have a talent tree system (or whatever WoW uses now), which properly supports multiple type of summons. The jump from lv.60 to 70 may offer something to make it more open to summons beyond tanking, ranged, and melee. However I simply do not see it. I am legitimately curious what additional summon with the current system in place can be done beyond what I just mentioned, because honestly I would love to be wrong. I would like to see more summons personally, but on a objective standpoint I don't see the reason to.

This is very much a case of remains to be seen, but the issues of SMN were easily avoidable from the start had it not been linked with SCH, something they were called out on the second that was revealed. Beating that dead horse again however wont amount to much at the current time and I fully admit i personally do not have a solution to the current issue.

Because every single time I mentioned that is because again, people in here only drawing comparisons to FFXI, which is pretty much keeps noting to their initial response regarding it. I don't agree with them and always willing to point out their nonsense like how raid structure should be or how relics were dumbed down immensely. Since I happen to agree with them on this topic, or the general topic of balance in MMO's, does not mean I agree with everything. If I truly believed that, I wouldn't traverse the forums like I do. I would just assume everything is perfect and not bother to. Again, do not pretend you know how I feel towards this game.

I'm not pretending anything, I specifically said if you preface your posts a certain way they will give off a certain perception. This last post you made does a much better job of getting your personal views on the situation across than the other two you posted.

I have countered the points several times if you actually read everything I have posted here. It always comes back "it will work because I say it will work". No one here has legitimately countered my claims and why they would actually be better for the game beyond their own sense of nostalgia. Not once in here. If these systems are not niche at best, then tell me how it balances on a casual, midcore, and hardcore level. No one can answer it because they don't know how to.

Secondly, you assume I will automatically dismiss something because it is FFXI. Far from the truth. I have proposed Nyzul Isle/Salvage like content for quite a while and have explained how they work in the context of this game. Not saying what I said got to the developers, but similar suggestions led to Palace of the Dead, which is pretty similar to that. The suggestions you have given now I actually have nothing against, because I would like more depth to chocobo raising/racing to make it more interesting. What is ironic is that FFXI has actually a lot of good about it and I could post ideas from it easily, but what others suggest in here is exactly what was negative about the game. Again, quick to judge. Take the facts, and simply counter argue.

Well to the first from my own suggestion if we're pulling directly from XI:

Limbus and ZNM like systems would fit almost seamlessly into this game with minor tweaks and could easily fit the balance of casual/midcore/hardcore almost perfectly, yet we never see any systems like that added.

What i means specifically in regards to limbus are moderate (think 30-40 minute) instances that have causal/midcore gear rewards but also drop "keys" for higher level bosses that would drop hardcore worthy loot as an alternative to raids. A system like this is something that can easily fit within the PF / DF framework and encourage not only FCs to work towards a united goal but casual players to group up with progress "keys".

ZNMs would also work perfectly as an extension of the already existing hunt system, add pop items for higher tier party claimed mobs that cost an obscene amount of allied/centurio seals (with a raised cap obviously) to encourage more participation in open world content for some "phat loot" as it were, alternatively it could use the framework of the current treasure map system and act like WoTG's Sandworm HNM that pulls you into what would be a pseudo trial for this game.

While you may not personally shoot down every XI related suggestion there are many posters on this forum that do (many of whom have never touched the game) for no other reason than they just don't want changes, heck look no further than this thread's tags if you will.

You would be surprised on the mind set of some in here. I will not ever say something is a bad idea simply because it came from another title. I will however call you out if you think tearing down a technically working foundation for one that can be considered niche at best is a great idea, then be prepared to be challenged on that.

Feel free to call out whatever you want but it sounds better if it's coming from your own opinions as opposed to the developer ones as those cant always be trusted to be entirely objective.