Why does Clemency get interrupted? And why does Sword/Shield Oath reset combo?

[Raxiaz]

I mean, really, SE? You give us a wonderful spell (well...as wonderful as it could be, anyway) but then limit its use by letting it be interrupted. And the 3 second cast time? You'd think for over two thousand MP, it would cast faster than that, or at least not get interrupted...

And I never understood why Sword/Shield Oath resets combo progression. I feel as though that would help boost PLD's overall DPS/raid performance in end-game, if we were able to switch between stances. Perhaps not so freely.

For example:
Switching to Shield Oath would reset combos, but switching to Sword Oath would not.

Just an idea. It'd be nice to tack on Goring Blade without the damage reduction by Shield Oath, without having to do the entire combo for it in Sword Oath. Maybe I'm just crying and whining, asking for too much... But there are some PLD skills that I, and I'm sure many others, feel very strongly about. Divine Veil is nice, for very few instances, and even in those instances, it's not really necessary. I've even used it (with my macro to announce to the party it's been used) but the healer didn't cure me, for an entire 30 seconds. Bad PUG healers...

[Syzygian]

And I never understood why Sword/Shield Oath resets combo progression. I feel as though that would help boost PLD's overall DPS/raid performance in end-game, if we were able to switch between stances. Perhaps not so freely.

Because every GCD that isn't part of a combo chain resets combo chains. Except Fell Cleave/Inner Beast and such, because... umm... uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh............. h-....h-hhnnnnnggggggggg....



Nothing would please me more though, than to be able to sit down with the dev team and ask them why WAR is exempt from so many of the rules DRK and PLD seem to have to follow (having to play around the costs of stance dancing, following the same rules on combo interruption as every other combo-based job, etc.), why PLD still has the lowest enmity modifiers, why they stuck CASTS on a TANK, why they gave raid DPS increases to the tank with the highest personal OT DPS (like giving taking Trick Attack and Battle Litany from NIN/DRG and giving them to MNK...), and why DRK absolutely HAS to tank outside of tank stance to hit the job's DPS ceiling. I just have so, so many questions. What design decisions inspired these choices? And why didn't they take their own designs into account when designing fights, not just raids but any content?

[AlexiIvaniskavich]

I beleive Syzygian, you are looking for this quote

"Eff paladin, yo"
- yoship

[Februs]

Because SE hates you. That simple.

Seriously though, you're not wrong. Clemency isn't unusable or anything. It's great for AoE dmg, but not as useful as it could be. AT THE VERY LEAST, they should give Pld's a way of sure-casting it (Additional effect of Tempered Will. You know, that move that Pld's never use and often forget they even have... Just a thought).

Stance dancing should also be adjusted, if only for the current Dps meta. Right now, anytime a Pld has to contribute to a Dps check (say...Sacred Cross... or even the Sword Oath Knight in Thor EX) they are made even less effective because of combo canceling. Swapping to Sword Oath wastes precious time, and not being able to swap back on the fly (because no Pld in their right mind wants to be in SwO when a buffed Holy Blade dance goes off) restricts them to basically clenching their butt cheeks and hoping for the best.

[Syzygian]

I like this thread. People bitch all the time, but no one for as long as I can remember has point blank just asked, "hey, SE, WHY?" We've referenced so many legitimate questions in the forums but very few have actually just flat out been like "hey, I demand an answer. wtf were you thinking?"

Answer us, dammit.

[AlexiIvaniskavich]

Because SE hates you. That simple.

Seriously though, you're not wrong. Clemency isn't unusable or anything. It's great for AoE dmg, but not as useful as it could be. AT THE VERY LEAST, they should give Pld's a way of sure-casting it (Additional effect of Tempered Will. You know, that move that Pld's never use and often forget they even have... Just a thought).

Now you are just stealing my ideas.... lol

Stance Dancing PLD is clunky and awkward, and just feels..... rigid. WAR is really smooth, maybe too smooth. Allowing Warriors to seemlesly transition, where a Paladin must plan ahead (and spend another yet GCD not stabbing something).

[Februs]

Answer us, dammit.

Could not agree more. SE is clearly aware of the problems facing Pld's, but they have been oddly quiet about it.

I think part of the the reason no one straight up asks is because no one actually expects them to respond. I can't remember the last time I saw a Dev response on the forums. The only thing we really have to go on is that interview with Yoshi-P in which he basically said that Pld is working as they intended which... would be not at all, I guess? I'm not sure I'm understanding their message here. Do they mean to tell us that they intended to remove Pld from the meta...or that they just don't care about that job anymore?

A similar situation faced War back in 2.0. It wasn't until the First Binding Coil of Bahamut almost eliminated that job from the game that they finally bucked up and made some much needed changes... so maybe we should all just stop using Pld so SE takes the hint and does some fixes? Kind of a crappy way to force change, but if it gets their attention I'll suck it up for a while and not touch my precious Pld.

Now you are just stealing my ideas.... lol

Well it's a damn good idea lol. Seriously though, I knew I had read this somewhere before. It is a good suggestion. Tempered Will's absurd CD timer might still be a problem, but at least it's better than nothing.

[Brannigan]

There is basically no reason other than they didn't think it through. Like much of paladin's stuff.

In 1.0, Holy Succor (paladin's native healing spell) didn't break combos, but Cure (cross class) would. Made sense I guess - that's the benefit of a native spell. Clemency interrupts our combos now because they probably just didn't think of it. The long cast time and interrupt vulnerability are maybe because they wanted to make it worse in some ways than a real healers' spells, but yeah they don't really have that problem with stuff like Maim or Fell Cleave. What's so powerful about Tempered Will that it needs a 3 minute cooldown? Why is Cover a 2 minute cooldown? A lot of it seems like just arbitrary decisions.

[Kotemon]

I don't know how to speculate on stance dancing for paladin. Although being able to switch to Sword oath while Flight is up to boost Royal Authority for its combo would seem like a good use for burst/spike damage.

Defiance and Deliverance has no associated cost. Grit has base cost scaled to MP like Mage spells. Shield-Sword Oath's have a cost of ~60 mp I think. Given that Warrior technically shouldn't have a pool of MP to tap into like Paladin and Dark Knight. The only spell they can cast is Flash. This is also why flash could be used more often on both Paladin and Dark. Warrior doesn't really need it but will use it to manage their use of TP and a minor damage reduction from blind. Ultimately it might come down to that Oaths are not an instant ability like blood weapon, Bloodbath, Berserk, Defiance, etc... Other skills would break a combo chain. Why it was designed like that might be more lore based than practicality.

Warriors are based on Viking Berserkers, and their historic lore is being really scary self controlled psychopaths and hard bring down (even when riddled with arrows and missing a limb or two in folk lore). Paladins are connected to divine/holy faith and Dark Knights (in-game) are brooding opposites soaking in their inner darkness. That's my theory as to why Warriors can quickly stance dance unlike paladin Paladin and Dark

Although to be fair Dark Knight doesn't have an actual Dps stance like Deliverance or Sword Oath. Dark Side if anything lessens the penalty from Grit, and allows access to Dark Arts and other Dark Side effects for a maintenance cost and damage. Blood weapon is more or less fight or flight to help cover the maintenance of Dark Side and to top off before turning Grit back on. Both together can be considered Darks Dps stance for consistent damage. While lower than a Warrior it can potentially go on longer with more consistency for the speed boost and TP reduction cycle.. So in a way Dark Knight is always in DPS mode unless they need to be in Tank mode. They just can't out DPS a Warrior.

Clemency from what I can tell is a down time spell or Oh s**t moment, used mostly in boss fights that don't involve hoards of trash and fodder. Trying to pop it off while everything is hitting you takes a bit of luck, damage reduction and block/parry. Aside from single tanking. Dual tanking the OT will be casting it on MT and occasionally the healer sometimes dps. An Off paladin is more likely to spam FB > RB a couple times to restore MP from Clemency. Either tanking will have to use it tactfully for big hits and to help the Healer (after a raise). Because of the high MP cost (2 or 3 casts?) and the need to riot combo MP back, its not meant to be spammed like cure. Compared to Warrior and Dark that can only quick heal themselves. Its a bit powerful for being able to self heal with your target for a decent chunk of HP without any of the associated mind stats. Remember Paladin is not a mage. Paladin mostly casts Flash and Stone Skin occasionally a lesser Protect as a utility. Otherwise Paladin would have access to Surecast. because we all know no healer or mage gets interrupted while being hit by 5 or 6+ mobs at once.

[Launched]

Because they're meant to have their own advantages and disadvantages, they're not meant to be clones of Equilibrium/Defiance/Deliverance.