A Possible 2 Star Rotation in the Future

[Caimie_Tsukino]

It's not ideal at the moment because of the limitation on CP. But notice that our MAX CP value at the moment is 421 (I think, with i170). Max CP food gives 50 CP, so the total is 471... only 8 CP less than required for this rotation. This mean even 1 Trick of the Trade would have done the magic.

*Make sure the 1st CZ is activated on the 4th step or 5th step of MaMa (i.e. when MaMa stack is at "12" or "11"). Activating earlier than that will render any Trick of Trade unable to be utilized during MaMa. Activating later than that, and your 3rd CZ may not have enough steps to gain back the invested CP.

The beauty of this though, is:
(1) Although it requires 7 steps for completion, only 4 steps need to be under Ingen2, which are tied to the Byregot phase (making it even stronger, and the Ingen2 fully utilized). The rest are all naked CS II that can be scattered anywhere to help reducing durab to 10 before MM2, or used to reduce CZ stack to zero before renewing it.
(2) It abandoned the use of ALL WN/WN2/Manip, and thus it frees up another slot for Cross Class Skills, and you can feel free to take as many Trick of Trade as you want.
(3) It doesn't utilize any Rapid Syn, which is good with fidelity (and saves another Cross Class slot).
(4) Despite wasting an extra step on completion, it still has the potential to reach IQ12 (well, technically, you can only reach IQ11, but you know what I mean here... you can afford to fail some Hasties).
(5) If you happened to have some good Trick of Trades, and have extra CP, you can even consider fitting an Innovation in the Byregot phase. You will definitely have the available Cross Class slot for it (or do a Precise Touch somewhere).
(6) It can be used by ALL classes, so you don't have to mess with different rotations for a class like BSM, which sometimes lack 1 Cross Class slot.
(7) VERY low craftsmanship requirement. You can easily achieve those numbers if you use Baked Onion Soup HQ.

[Silverbane]

Very interesting. Maybe when we get some Two-star Culinarian recipes, this will be possible ...

[Caimie_Tsukino]

Actually!! Delaying the first CZ for 3 steps would be VERY important!
At the moment, if you take a Trick in MaMa, your CP will hit max when CZ finishes, and some CZ returns will be wasted!
But if you activate the first CZ for 3 steps later, then there's room to take in a Trick anywhere during MaMa, and the CP won't hit max.

So the rotation should start off with:
Maker's
FS
FS
FS
CZ

The beginning phase of this rotation is exactly the same as Katlyna's (except I moved Inner Quiet to a later spot, so I have 1 extra chance of FS than her rotation). Thus, if we don't get a single Trick of Trade during MaMa, we can transition into her rotation. If we do get 1 Trick, then this rotation will already be valid.

EDIT NOTE:
I have now edited the original post to fix this. The first CZ is to be activated on the 4th step or 5th step of MaMa. No earlier, no later, regardless of where you take your Trick of Trades.

[Katlyna]

Oh I see you are trying making the jump to using two full Master Mend's II giving another free step and removing the required cross class skill for Waste Not 2. Its not a bad idea. I guess the question will ultimately be, will the one extra step be worth it over the extra CP you have without. Because you are talking about 160 CP vs 98 = 62 CP difference or 3 precise/basics. Personally I think keeping waste not 2 and pushing in more precise/basics reducing the overall range will result in a slightly higher average HQ rate. But I'm guessing the performance difference would be something like 1-2% difference.

Personally what I'm doing toward the future (and its starting now) is using my MaMa Careful Synth rotation and cycling out Ingenuity 2 for Ingenuity 1 (saving 16 extra CP). Technically I think max CP current CP is 422. I have 420 at the moment and only +3 in my main and offhand weapons (while +4 is the max). So in my case and rotation this frees up one more build in Precise touch putting me at two built in precise with 8 additional hasty attempts.

So in the future that's basically what I'm looking at for quick approach comparisons. How many Hasty attempts are performed and more specifically how may are required succeed at reach 100% HQ @ ~2000 starting quality. Consequently rotations which rely on rapid touch would include the rapid touches as part of the required success rate. I may run the numbers at some point showing this in some rotations and how it lets you calculate average HQ chance of a given rotation. But I'm way too out of it to attempt this right now LOL

[Caimie_Tsukino]

The one thing I hate about WN2 is how we can't freely take any Tricks in there. Where as in this rotation here, we can pretty much take it anywhere we want. This may resolve the CP issue. And the 3 naked CS II become very flexible fillers. But anyway, it's more like theorycrafting atm. It's another theory work of mine that demonstrates why I'm such a CP freak over craft or control, LOL!

[Katlyna]

The one thing I hate about WN2 is how we can't freely take any Tricks in there. Where as in this rotation here, we can pretty much take it anywhere we want. This may resolve the CP issue. And the 3 naked CS II become very flexible fillers. But anyway, it's more like theorycrafting atm. It's another theory work of mine that demonstrates why I'm such a CP freak over craft or control, LOL!

This is exactly what I used to hate about WN2 too. But the problem now is that we don't get many Good/Excellent procs (per Silver the rate is ~1/11). Most MaMa rotations have ~40 steps from start to Byregot's so you can expect 3 to 4 procs. Assuming only 75% of your rotation has places where the proc can be precise touch consumed or ToTed this gives you an average of three usable procs. Assuming only 50% of your rotation has places where the proc can be precise touch consumed or ToTed this gives you an average of 2 usable procs.

So most rotations on average will get between two-three usable good/excellent procs in a given attempt. Because this is silly low waste not II's super high efficiency is winning over. Consequently until the super low proc rate changes, a well used waste not II probably will raise the overall efficiency of the synths quality chances in comparison to a rotation which doesn't use Waste Not II.

That seems to be the prevailing theme I've seen in my rotation average HQ rate analysis.

[Silverbane]

The one thing I hate about WN2 is how we can't freely take any Tricks in there.

Given the apparent 1-in-11 odds of getting a G/E condition, then every extra ToT-taking opportunities should have an incremental cost of 20/11 CP or less. Even then, it's adding more RNG dependence compared to just having the extra CP on hand.

Just thinking out loud here, this line of thought makes me want to explore how to have both more at-start excess CP and more opportunities to take Precise Touch, not ToT, under Steady Hand II (SH2). I am minded of the basic Waste Not II (WN2) sub-rotation:

SH2 WN2 HT HT HT SH2 HT HT HT HT HT

wherein the SH2 HT pair can become PT SH2 if you have 18 extra CP and get a G/E condition at the start of the pair, thus giving G/E exploit opportunities on 8 of the 10 steps of the sub-rotation.

More stuff like that would be nice ...

[Katlyna]

I also noticed this Silverbane, when working in my 1 star rotation that SH2 WN2 pair lets you take PT during your WN2 slot too (since you have trailing non WN2 durability starting from 70). And this same curiosity hit me as well.

[Silverbane]

Mmm-hmm. So, for example, I have used rotations that have two Rapid Synthesis (RS) steps under Ingenuity2 and SH2, they are nice. But if I didn't have them under Ingenuity II, I could freely replace the RS with Precise Touch (PT) and then replace a later Hasty Touch with the RS to compensate. This would require more RS or other progress steps, but frees up some CP and provides two more spots I can PT. Worth it? Not sure, I'd have to explore it.

P.S. I always feel so good when those two RS steps make their 90% (with SH2) chance.

[Caimie_Tsukino]

Yea, I agree! There are definitely better methods! I'll keep exploring! ^^