[dev 1032] What's wrong with job/subjob again?

[Reika]

If they add ninja and Utsuemi, I dont think it will have as good of an effect it did as in FFXI, or like some skills, It just wont be cross-classablie, like Speed Surge and Shadowsere.

[Arcell]

Regardless I still say that the dev team could come up with something far superior to both the current system and certainly job/subjob. I'd rather see them innovate than copy/paste an old outdated idea.

[Abriael]

What's wrong with job/subjob?

Quite easy. For one, it's excessively limiting and the number of viable combinations is not that high. An inevitable consequence of that is that cookie-cutter be all end all combinations tend to be the only ones accepted (with reason), making the freedom of choice between job/subjob a completely illusory one, and as such moot.

On the other hand the FFXIV armory system offers a much higher amount of combinations, and while a certain amount of cookie-cuttering will always exist, the viable combinations are much more, making freedom of choice and personalization much more relevant.

It's quite simple, really.

[kukurumei]

What's wrong with job/subjob?

Quite easy. For one, it's excessively limiting and the number of viable combinations is not that high. An inevitable consequence of that is that cookie-cutter be all end all combinations tend to be the only ones accepted (with reason), making the freedom of choice between job/subjob a completely illusory one, and as such moot.

On the other hand the FFXIV armory system offers a much higher amount of combinations, and while a certain amount of cookie-cuttering will always exist, the viable combinations are much more, making freedom of choice and personalization much more relevant.

It's quite simple, really.

Personalization of what? It just led to the same result, only worse. We don't even have distinction of classes anymore, we just have distinction of skill combinations.

You're a defensive ugly chimera, an ugly DD chimera, or a healing ugly chimera.

and true to chimera nature, the cheapest and most dominating strains come out to hide its weaknesses.

That's true freedom for you, a beast of min/maxing.

[Kimahri]

Holy Jesus. Enough with these excuses of cookie-cutter bull****. In the end this system will fall along the same lines and it will turn into less "viable combinations" as FFXI.

Abriael let's go ahead and do something right now. Let's do some number crunching. Let's say that there were three different job/subjob combinations for every class.....This isn't true, since almost every job had well over that many viable combinations. There are twenty(20) jobs currently available in FFXI. Simple math results in 60 possible optimal builds, or "Cookie-Cutter" combinations that you could come up with. Don't know about you, but that hardly seems very limiting. You act as if every job had to sub ninja or else be scorned.

P.S. Not to mention that your character had different sets of gear for different strategies. Different merits into different jobs. And also overall different players to play their own character. For Samurai I had two sets of gear; TP and WS. For Black Mage I had three; Elemental, Enfeebling, Dark Magic. Again. That's a lot of viable combinations for your so called "Cookie-cutter" jargon.

[darkstarpoet1]

Holy Jesus. Enough with these excuses of cookie-cutter bull****. In the end this system will fall along the same lines and it will turn into less "viable combinations" as FFXI.

Abriael let's go ahead and do something right now. Let's do some number crunching. Let's say that there were three different job/subjob combinations for every class.....This isn't true, since almost every job had well over that many viable combinations. There are twenty(20) jobs currently available in FFXI. Simple math results in 60 possible optimal builds, or "Cookie-Cutter" combinations that you could come up with. Don't know about you, but that hardly seems very limiting. You act as if every job had to sub ninja or else be scorned.

P.S. Not to mention that your character had different sets of gear for different strategies. Different merits into different jobs. And also overall different players to play their own character. For Samurai I had two sets of gear; TP and WS. For Black Mage I had three; Elemental, Enfeebling, Dark Magic. Again. That's a lot of viable combinations for your so called "Cookie-cutter" jargon.

and using your numbers there are many more builds with the system in place now due to not being limited to 2 classes at a time even with less classes.

[Kimahri]

and using your numbers there are many more builds with the system in place now due to not being limited to 2 classes at a time even with less classes.

You're completely disregarding something. Being able to select any abilities currently from any class is what is making this class system less unique and being even more limited than FFXI. In the end it'll turn into you leveling a class for a certain ability. You can say what you think about how I presume too much, but remember I've been in FFXI since the day it started. I think I know what I'm talking about. Also when you all said that if I didn't have the right subjob that you would be shunned by the community? Think down the future. "Haha! What a noob! He doesn't have [Insert Skill] on his [Insert Class] yet! Let's kick him."

Please don't tell me how to restrict myself so you can enjoy a system by only yourself. I'd like to think of others since this is a MMO. If I didn't want to play with others, I'd go buy a single-player game.

inability to handle freedom for some people is part of the reason this game is dying. don't blame freedom for the inability to handle it. even with a job/sub job system this game is still very much broken and to blame this as the reason the game is in bad shape is quite nearsighted.

No. Inability is not the reason we're leaving the game. We're leaving the game because this current class system is boring and repetative. There is no motivation behind leveling a certain class other than to obtain additional skills to use for other classes. I want to level Marauder because it is a Marauder. Not because I can use it's abilities on Gladiator and be 'Supreme' over only just a Marauder. This system is not engaging for me, and it's the same for a damn good number of others as well. Just to state a fact, but 85.1% of everyone around the world said that they would be in favor of SE drastically changing the very foundational laws that govern Eorzea.

Nobody is here to wreck a game, but with the way you guys complain you do nothing to further other people's desires. It's just like Auto-Attack. The one's opposed against it think it'll be less engaging when there really isn't any legitimate reason behind that. People were engaged during XI's auto-attack phase. A very big reasoning behind implementing this is that it gives us time to chat to others, look up information on the fly, change over to YouTube so we can listen to some music, etc, etc. It's why they eliminated TBA in the old FF RPG because all it was would be button mashing once you engaged in combat.

Edit: Sorry. I just logged onto IGN.com and seen this at a glance and let me tell you. This review of Dynasty Warriors 7 reflects a lot of how I feel about FFXIV.

"Dynasty Warriors 7 is one of those games that really only appeals to a certain niche of gamers. Dynasty Warriors fans are going to find a whole lot to like with Dynasty Warriors 7, including an expansive set of options that will keep players busy for a very long time. But for everybody else, playing Dynasty Warriors 7 will be a chore. The gameplay is repetitive and boring, the aesthetics are bland, and the story -- while interesting and chock-full of characters -- can be hard to follow and bogged-down by melodramatic delivery.

In other words, those who are already into the Dynasty Warriors franchise will love Dynasty Warriors 7. Everybody else should stay away."

[darkstarpoet1]

You're completely disregarding something. Being able to select any abilities currently from any class is what is making this class system less unique and being even more limited than FFXI. In the end it'll turn into you leveling a class for a certain ability. You can say what you think about how I presume too much, but remember I've been in FFXI since the day it started. I think I know what I'm talking about. Also when you all said that if I didn't have the right subjob that you would be shunned by the community? Think down the future. "Haha! What a noob! He doesn't have [Insert Skill] on his [Insert Class] yet! Let's kick him."

Please don't tell me how to restrict myself so you can enjoy a system by only yourself. I'd like to think of others since this is a MMO. If I didn't want to play with others, I'd go buy a single-player game.



No. Inability is not the reason we're leaving the game. We're leaving the game because this current class system is boring and repetative. There is no motivation behind leveling a certain class other than to obtain additional skills to use for other classes. I want to level Marauder because it is a Marauder. Not because I can use it's abilities on Gladiator and be 'Supreme' over only just a Marauder. This system is not engaging for me, and it's the same for a damn good number of others as well. Just to state a fact, but 85.1% of everyone around the world said that they would be in favor of SE drastically changing the very foundational laws that govern Eorzea.

Nobody is here to wreck a game, but with the way you guys complain you do nothing to further other people's desires. It's just like Auto-Attack. The one's opposed against it think it'll be less engaging when there really isn't any legitimate reason behind that. People were engaged during XI's auto-attack phase. A very big reasoning behind implementing this is that it gives us time to chat to others, look up information on the fly, change over to YouTube so we can listen to some music, etc, etc. It's why they eliminated TBA in the old FF RPG because all it was would be button mashing once you engaged in combat.

Edit: Sorry. I just logged onto IGN.com and seen this at a glance and let me tell you. This review of Dynasty Warriors 7 reflects a lot of how I feel about FFXIV.

no, sorry i was not saying that some people do not like the system in general. i am saying that if someone doesn't like the doing multiple classes then don't. there are people that feel the same as you do. on the other side there are people that enjoy the freedom and that is the people i play with. how you play your game does not affect me in any way so i do not mind how others play it. that is the inability to handle that i was referring to.

all i was saying is that people keep saying THIS is the reason the game is in poor shape. even if se did exactly this system and used the job/subjob system this game would not be fixed. there are many problems with this game other than this. i enjoy the system and i play with people that feel the same so what is the problem with if someone wants a job/subjob and play with that group that feels that way and does things that way? if you only want to play a marauder play as a marauder. that is part of the freedom to choose how to play the game the way you want.

[kukurumei]

no, sorry i was not saying that some people do not like the system in general. i am saying that if someone doesn't like the doing multiple classes then don't. there are people that feel the same as you do. on the other side there are people that enjoy the freedom and that is the people i play with. how you play your game does not affect me in any way so i do not mind how others play it. that is the inability to handle that i was referring to.

all i was saying is that people keep saying THIS is the reason the game is in poor shape. even if se did exactly this system and used the job/subjob system this game would not be fixed. there are many problems with this game other than this. i enjoy the system and i play with people that feel the same so what is the problem with if someone wants a job/subjob and play with that group that feels that way and does things that way? if you only want to play a marauder play as a marauder. that is part of the freedom to choose how to play the game the way you want.

IF you want to be stuck at lvl 20, feel free to do so, it's freedom. If you want to fight a boss naked to add more challenge, feel free to do so. If you want to jump off a bridge feel free to do so.

Do you realized that's the most stupidest argument to put to a theory. There's no such thing as feel free not to win.

Right behind, "don't copy me".

[Arcell]

Hey, I'm just glad they're not going to implement job/subjob. As I've stated many times, I know the dev team is better than that. They will create something better suited to FFXIV.

What that is I have no idea but hey, it can't be worse than what we've already got or job/subjob can it?