Job and Subjob system instead of classes?

[Gennosuke]

Though still a bit early to speculate how the new job system will be, there is major anticipation but also concern for many as seen in other threads.

I like the idea of the new jobs coming into the game, but frankly, i have always had many concerns regarding their plan and felt uncomfortable with it. Mainly I don't like the fact that they're planning to keep classes as well and having to end up with 2 different systems in the game.
Here's some major points that really get to me regarding this issue.

Redundancy - There is a definite significant degree of redundancy when you have classes and jobs which are almost identical. The idea of having white mage => conj, monk => pug, gld => pld, in the same game at the same time sounds wrong and redundant. SE realized players want a sense of uniqueness, and thats where jobs came in, but the very fact that classes are more or less replicas of their job counterparts just doesn't sit well with me when we speak of uniqueness. It's unknown how they plan them to be but i can think of 2 possible scenarios.

1) The new jobs could have their own abilities in which case i again anticipate redundant abilities. How many more abilities can you come up with for pld when you have gld? we already have provoke, taunt, or cure, sacrifice, raise, and so on..

2) or they could borrow the same abilities from the respective class and have special abilities on top. To be honest, I still don't see it motivating enough to (for eg) level whm to 50 if i have conj at 50 or monk to 50 if i have pug at 50 only to gain some extra abilities on pretty much the same job and to possibly unlock the existing abilities which i already have from the classes.

Solo/casual players missing out - This is another big issue, the fact they have designed the new job system for party oriented play means solo/casual players won't get to enjoy them to their full extent as hardcore/party players would, instead theyre left with classes. This by design seems to favour one party of players over the other, im sure most players are looking forward to jobs. Infact all players will have the issue when playing solo which undoubtedly all will at times.

Extra Complications and effort - The obvious other issue is, SE will have to carry the ongoing burden of working with 2 different systems all along keeping them perfectly balanced at all times with every new job, expansion and content added. More effort, more work, more resources, more complications, exploits, etc. As if SE needs more on it's plate in the current state of the game.

There are other issues as well brought up in the past such as unbalanced overpower of cross class play which again, there's already plans for this to be addressed by further setting limitations and restrictions on class system, and also the issue of weapon to class to job relationship and complications of that.

So why all this hassle? I honestly think the best and simple way is to replace Classes with new Job system coming out and introduce something similar to Subjob system. It doesn't have to be an exact clone of XI, could be expanded on, could be something similar to FFT which i think was awesome. Secondary/Subjobs always worked and its a whole lot of fun and it addresses all previous and new concerns regarding classes.

Feel free to post your thoughts. If you agree as well, go ahead and like the post.
Please keep trolling/flaming out of here. If you have nothing to contribute, ignore the thread.

[Oscillate_Wildly]

I thought that as Jobs you don't have any of the class skills at your disposal, vice versa.
Not all soloers are against partying at least once or twice, and the content isn't completely useless to them. After all, that's like saying that in the future all content will be Solo-accessible, which it should not be.
A big no to subjob/jobs.
If I wanted to play FFXI I'd go and play it. It's not as though it's gone yet.

[Zanfire]

prepare your flame shield my friend lol. Anyways I just hope jobs turn out to be more then just a title with a few more skills and more limits....if its just that then il be sure to post a nice juicy whiny thread on the forums. The bigger problem right now is how stats effect things and how it seems all the truly effective combat stats come solely from your weapon, making begin that "mix" class not really all that effective, your still kind of in a roll.

Right now im just hoping they make jobs not be what i mentioned above...a title more then anything. Until its out, all we can do is speculate and no ideas we have will really matter, they seem to have already be well on the way with the system.

[Coglin]

I always hated the term "job" with FF. It feels so forced....like......well.....most JOBS (employment)

I always like the term Master class, That come with Master class abilities that can be used in conjunction with all the other class skills. With the difference being that I would like to see MCAs define the job seperatly from the class...Meaning with 3-5 certain abilities/skills can really define a job over a class.

I mean in general I agree with what you are saying. Although, as far as what you say about solo/casual player, I disagree. I am prety casual in my play often, but that has nothing to do with not grouping, and soloers get no pity from me. If you want a MMO which by definition is massive multiplayer online to be solo, well that just illogically contradictory.

[Zenaku]

I always hated the term "job" with FF. It feels so forced....like......well.....most JOBS (employment)

I always like the term Master class, That come with Master class abilities that can be used in conjunction with all the other class skills.

I mean in general I agree with what you are saying. Although, as far as what you say about solo/casual player, I disagree. I am prety casual in my play often, but that has nothing to do with not grouping, and soloers get no pity from me. If you want a MMO which by definition is massive multiplayer online to be solo, well that just illogically contradictory.

Even in wow if your a Class and you pick a tree that a tank guess what? your a tank which that your job if you pick healer your a healer. In ffxi you get to switch Jobs to white mage or PLD so that was your tank and healer so pretty much it's the same thing.

FFXIV going to have class---> jobs which mean Pug----> Monk and ??? and the ??? could be a tank type so it be more like wow in a way where you can be more then one thing later on.

[Gennosuke]

prepare your flame shield my friend lol. Anyways I just hope jobs turn out to be more then just a title with a few more skills and more limits....if its just that then il be sure to post a nice juicy whiny thread on the forums. The bigger problem right now is how stats effect things and how it seems all the truly effective combat stats come solely from your weapon, making begin that "mix" class not really all that effective, your still kind of in a roll.

Right now im just hoping they make jobs not be what i mentioned above...a title more then anything. Until its out, all we can do is speculate and no ideas we have will really matter, they seem to have already be well on the way with the system.

*Gennosuke readies Flame Shield*
and no.. im not sure if Flame shield is an ability from a job or borrowed from a class :P

Actually, funnily enough, i just realized there's already a similar thread posted regarding this issue:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...r-of-Jobs-Devs

So i probably just expanded a bit more on it with my concerns against the class system coinciding with jobs.
I would expect some people to narrow this down to a silly statement like go play XI. but then they'd have to say go play FFT as well as other FF titles out there.
Frankly, i care not for trolls, these are my concerns and what i personally hope to see in the game.
Though honestly, i dont think this plan will go too far if these issues do materialize when the the patch comes out. So better to voice concerns from now if we are to play a role in shaping the future of this game which we should.

I think we all realized by now, not speaking up can cause in some major disappointment in this game as is currently the case for many.

In conclusion, it's too vague a system and i can see many potential probs. Jobs and Subjobs just worked perfectly and i never heard anyone complain about them, i don't see the prob of heading that direction since it's a common FF practice and it works.

[Gennosuke]

I mean in general I agree with what you are saying. Although, as far as what you say about solo/casual player, I disagree. I am prety casual in my play often, but that has nothing to do with not grouping, and soloers get no pity from me. If you want a MMO which by definition is massive multiplayer online to be solo, well that just illogically contradictory.

I am with encouraging party play even for casuals, i think it's a great thing and what made XI fun. However you are missing the point that SE designed FFXIV not just for party and hardcore play, but solo-friendly as well. So even if you're a casual who aims for grouping, you can't assume all casuals wouldn't want to solo-play. You can't rule out the rest of the players who purchased this game based on the solo play aspect. I know good amount of players who play solo most of the time. So your lack of sympathy isn't well placed and also it is not contradictory when it is an intention by design. This logic would have worked with XI, but not so much with FFXIV.
The other point that you may have missed is that Yoshi specifically stated that jobs were desgined for party play. The alternative would obviously be solo play.

But putting that aside, even if we brush the solo players off, actually in that case you're further adding to my point of redundancy of having classes and jobs. Why? when jobs were designed for party play? It's just adding an extra layer of redundancy and complication. To me as stated in the other thread, it feels like they're just holding onto a relic from the past team's work for no good reason.

More sensible to just switch over.
Not to mention other concerns like weapon to class to job relationships. It's all too confusing and complicated for no good reason..other than to perhaps trying to be new, except in a non-sensible, complicated and inefficient way.
I just really don't see the class system holding real value with new jobs coming in.

[Keith_Dragoon]

(So gonna regret this later)

As I said in the other thread, I am in favor of dumping classes for jobs, reason being: With no "classes" the weapon = class system can be done away with while still maintaining the armoury system's ability to cross-class abilities.

On another note a Job/Subjob system would probly be a better alternative to the armoury system. Before people jump on my back about taking step backwards and the likes I want you to read this. I don't mean the exact job/Sub system from 11 I was more along the lines of say you are soloing on Glad and you need some powerful heals to make life easier. Open your menu, goto jobs and change main to GLA and sub to CON you gain access to majority of the conjurer's abilities minus those that are not currently available. 1. (An optional text command for macros could be added) 2. (Players cannot job change while engaged as it is now)

"Well we can do that now without the menu!" Well in my proposed system we can equip other weapons because they ARE NOT our class, we can unequip weapons because they ARE NOT our class. in the system I proposed it helps better define your roles without pasting a job from a former FF ontop of XIV's current classes making things more complicated and a PITA balancing. Instead of balancing 2 sets of Class/Jobs they could spend more time doing other tasks that need attention.

With the current system in place Its hard to see this game getting many new classes/jobs in the future expansions. The wide array of jobs in 11 (20+) is what kept me around so long through the good and the horribly wrong.

[Leeloo]

The way I understood it was that the new jobs are simply more focused play styles of the original classes. Monk being a specialty that you can earn as a pugilist rather than being a completely new job to level from 1-50(for example). That's how it came off to me in the battle reform blueprint anyway:

Rather than being advanced versions of classes, we would like players to think of jobs as specialized playing styles optimized for partying. While playing as a particular job will render you unable to equip certain actions of other classes, you will be compensated with access to exclusive actions, which can be acquired through quests.

In practice, players will find the existing classes effective when playing solo or in certain party setups. Jobs, however, will shine in party situations where specific skill sets are demanded.

If that's the case then that takes care of some of your concerns up there. It doesn't seem as complicated & redundant when I look at it that way.

[BONKERS]

Solution: Go play FFXI. K Thx bi.