Can someone give me an in-depth explanation why Summoner is arguably the worst DPS?

[Lilyarel]

I've been looking around the net an I've been getting a lot of mixed messages. Posts about Summoner being top DPS and posts about Summoner being subpar. I've even seen posts about people kicking Summoner because of said DPS.

Can anyone explain why?

[Skeith-Adeline]

They are fine lol. I disunderstand the gracious amount of issues with SMNs. It stemed from FCoB Mana issues and choosing BLMs over them, but some fights favor other classes. Most of the complaints I feel aren't from people in final coil lol. Many groups are successful with SMNs in their groups in final coil.

[OdKrys]

Most of the complaints I feel aren't from people in final coil lol. Many groups are successful with SMNs in their groups in final coil.

That's right. my dpses in FCOB are (with 120WP) : T10 430, T11 400 (Cube with Ifrit, cause our static has blm and smn), T12 430 (handling bluefire)
i think those dpses are enough to clear for FCOB though i didnt cleard t13 yet.
but, melee is specialized in one target and caster stronger than melee in AOE in almost MMOs.
compare to another caster;BLM, my static's BLM show that more dps than mine 15~20+ though we have similar gears.
besides, my MP was drained out in 5min without energy drain, cause FCOB have many adds except for t11.
so now there aren't certain reason to play SMN, exclude only playing SMN player like me.

[zcrash970]

Basically:
1.) if SMNs do not use Energy Drain and use our stacks for strictly Festers,I think we can last 3 minutes and 30 seconds to about 4 minutes I believe without Mage's Ballad while other DPS jobs, excluding BLM, can go 4 minutes plus without the use of Army's Paeon. In a typical endgame static, there are 2 DoWs and 2 DoMs or 3 DoWs and 1 DoMs when it comes to DPSs. Out of these two setups, Army's Paeon is better to use instead of Ballad since it would always affect more players. There is no point in playing Ballad if only your SMN needs MP. You'll be better off playing Foes or Paeon if the static is composed of 3 DoWs.

2.) Our battle raise is completely worthless when it comes to the FCoB or any content, in my opinion. If you have someone die in the FCoB, you might as well reset the fight. The rez order always go SCH>WHM>SMN. If people are dying so fast that it comes to the SMN to rez then there is a serious issue and not to mention the massive drain it is to our mp and waste of a swiftcast. Granted the utility of supervirus and the shorter cd on "Eye for an Eye" is great and all, it is hardly fight saving.

3.) The FcoB has adds...tons and tons of adds. We have to use another aetherflow stack on Bane and even more mp on setting DoTs on these adds. BLM can easily use AoEs without any real cost to their DPS, it's their specialty after all.

4.) GOD THE SPELL SPEED @.@... Such a useless stat for SMNs. No matter how minor the DPS change there is from secondary stats, it is a wasted stat for us. Not to mention the amount of MP bleed it results in when we have too much ruin spam and us messing up DoTs recasts.

I think I covered the main concerns of endgame SMNs but I am probably forgetting some.

BTW this is coming from an ex endgame SMN and raider....I can't find a new static T____T

p.s.: sorry for all the typos and grammar mistakes, it's like 5AM right now and I'm sleepy

EDIT: I forgot to include #4

[Ephier]

Basically:
1.) if SMNs do not use Energy Drain and use our stacks for strictly Festers,I think we can last 3 minutes and 30 seconds to about 4 minutes I believe without Mage's Ballad while other DPS jobs, excluding BLM, can go 4 minutes plus without the use of Army's Paeon.

God forbid you have to use a skill with lower potency to regain resources. Fights in FCOB have very little down time, meaning melee run dry around 4 minutes even with invigorate, no paeon means if we did not have to deal with a mechanic (in certain fights at least), we are going to be scraping for TP. I would gladly take a lower potency skill for to regain tp.

[Dinocat]

I posted this up about 2 months ago, but it outlines basics of what is wrong with the SMN class.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...N-Class-Issues

The currently debated arguments of SMN viability in downing content, is a whole other matter.

The way SMN DPS scales at the moment is highly reliant on DoT uptime vs. fight length, mechanics/phase timing, and raid DPS. Most of the SMN currently expressing their ability to keep a fairly high DPS parse in FCoB are guaranteed to have moderately high Raid DPS backing them up in addition to a significant amount of over-gearing (more gear than minimally required ilvl wise in comparison to the lowest ilvl possible for completion; MNK/MNK/BRD/BLM composition can complete FCoB in full 110 from pre-2.4 and i90 accessories, proven by FC Lucrezia).

As stated, due to SMN sustainability, the shorter the fight or phase, the higher the SMN can keep their numbers. The longer the fight or phase lasts, the SMN strength and viability suffer. Due to the nature of minimal item level across the raid equaling a higher raid encounter time, the SMN capacity/utility is significantly lower in such an environment.

Personal experience in FCoB: our static team cleared T13 with a MNK/BRD/SMN/BLM composition; but only after we had our 130 weapons. My personal and team skill is most definitely not on par with say the likes of Lucrezia or BG, so my assessment may not be entirely accurate. Skill cap does play a significant part in class and composition value; it is difficult to truly calculate the skill cap between a team unless comparing on a 1 to 1 same composition basis.

I can throw numbers out there stating I have gotten as high as 470 DPS in a merged parse of Phase 1/2/Final (Pure Boss enrage check DPS value), using 135 weapon and 2 i130 left side,2 i130 right side, Piety Melded Gloves and Ring. Monk doing 500+ in i130 weapon and about the same armor as myself, BLM doing about 450 in i130 weapon and 110 melded only and no i130 armor, and Bard doing about 450 with i135 weapon ilvl123 2x TP/MP songs in those phases. Could I do anything close to this if the other DPS were not pulling such high number? It is highly unlikely for me to even meet the necessary DPS check to even be considered a viable choice if not for my current gear and the raids DPS value.

So to answer the question of, “can a SMN clear the FCoB and do decent DPS?”

Most definitely, but only under the condition of overgearing and high raid DPS.

Now if one were to ask the question of “should I take a SMN to FCoB for endgame competition (World/Server First)?”

The answer would be “No, take a BLM as caster and run a 2x melee 1x bard composition.”

===

The SMN class has a hard DPS cap of DoT potency, Fester, and pet skills combined with the limitation on resources.

Roughly estimated, in a raid environment with Foe Req assisted openings, the SMN can sustain DPS required to compete with other classes for about 4 minutes. Due to resource limitations and CD length, DPS will decline rapidly past this point. This is where the SMN versus other class comparison comes in. In comparison to mnk/nin/drg (post buff) which has much higher damage to resource sustainment ratio, SMN is not optimal past the first few minutes of a phase/fight.

The SMN lacks sustainability of its damage over any lengthy period, to the point in which given a capacity comparison, translates to rough DPS difference 50+ DPS on a BLM and 100+ for melee.

Referencing pure dummy solo DPS, a MNK/NIN/DRG can push well past 530 DPS alone with no food/pot/party with a 130+ weapon; the SMN around 430. In equal gear so far at around ilvl120 armor/accs and i130+ weapon a DRG/MNK/NIN can do at least 100+ more DPS than a SMN; I imagine the gap increases with full i130 purely due to current stats on gear.

In any case, in an optimally matched or perhaps even a pure single target DPS cap comparison in 2.4 BiS, SMN has the lowest in the maximum output capacity department; perhaps only second to bard?

Due to a lack of BiS Bard to BiS SMN parse comparison availability, I cannot say for sure which has a lower max DPS Cap.

Bards have similar issues of poor SS (skillspeed) scaling and their gear stats being non-optimal for their class; though not as extreme as the SMN SS (Spellspeed) stat weight issue. If you take a look at the FCoB and Poetics 130 armor BiS, along with stat weights, SMN has the lowest scaling and gain of every class.

Refer to the stat weights here: https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...eight_updates/

To answer many of the questions about SMN at this current point in time, the 2.4 stat weight distribution in conjunction with the lack of mana resource availability/sustainability for SMN is a strong contributing factor to the class being considered “a poor choice for endgame.”

The major issue lies within the top end DPS capacity of DoM vs. DoW, referred to above and in the linked original thread, which contributes to SMN being considered a weak class. On most dungeon/trial/farm content, the SMN class can be full of utility and be minimally affected by many of these issues. The issues are most prominent though when comparing and analyzing in a min/max endgame environment.

There are a myriad of possible fixes ranging from pet buffs, stats rebalancing, to pure potency buffs of job specific skills. It may seem that something is in the works concerning adjustment to the way spellspeed works in 3.0 (hinted through live letters, etc.) Perhaps SS translating to faster dot ticks below the 3 second server time? A SMN can dream. Guess we will have to see how SE plays this one out.

[zcrash970]

God forbid you have to use a skill with lower potency to regain resources. Fights in FCOB have very little down time, meaning melee run dry around 4 minutes even with invigorate, no paeon means if we did not have to deal with a mechanic (in certain fights at least), we are going to be scraping for TP. I would gladly take a lower potency skill for to regain tp.

I think you missed the point entirely.
I was making the point where if the bard was going the play AP or MB for strictly DPS resource restore, then AP will always be the better choice no matter what. Even if you add the tanks and healers to this, AP will probably be better. Most healers can manage their MP to last an entire battle if it is a perfect run( i.e no one has died,) while on the other hand tanks, in particular OT WARs, will burn through their TP no matter what and probably need AP at some point much like the DoWs DPS.

Also, yes. You should be using ED once for every Aetherflow stack but it brings our DPS down no matter what kind of spin you put on it. Our utility doesn't make up for the DPS gap between BLM and SMN.

[YanderePrincess]

2.) Our battle raise is completely worthless when it comes to the FCoB or any content, in my opinion. If you have someone die in the FCoB, you might as well reset the fight. The rez order always go SCH>WHM>SMN.

Is it really that big a mana issue on smn? In my SCOB static, we had rez order SMN > SCH > WHM (our whm always had more mana problems than our smn or sch, so we wanted to drain hers the least).

[Delta041]

Is it really that big a mana issue on smn? In my SCOB static, we had rez order SMN > SCH > WHM (our whm always had more mana problems than our smn or sch, so we wanted to drain hers the least).

FCoB is pretty grueling for SMN. Adds means Aetherflow stacks aren't being used on fester for max DPS or energy drain for MP regen. Lots of movement means lots of Ruin 2 being thrown around. You also have situations were adds are spaced apart, meaning you have to apply dots multiple times instead of being able to bane everything (though it does give you back some energy drain shots). Lots of cleaves that don't ignore pets means having to summon mid fight, compounding the problem until you learn what to watch for. There is very little downtime to allow Aetherflow to cool down and top you off due to the hectic nature of most fights.

I've cleared 10, 11 and gotten to final phase of 12 on summoner. Of these 3 fights 10 is definitely my least favorite and I just do it as black mage now.

[Judge_Xero]

Is it really that big a mana issue on smn? In my SCOB static, we had rez order SMN > SCH > WHM (our whm always had more mana problems than our smn or sch, so we wanted to drain hers the least).

No, but because SMN damage is behind other classes in FCOB because of "no down time" and only short opportunities to multi-dot, players are pushing every bit of DPS they can which gives the illusion that there are MP problems.

The truth is, that even with unlimited MP, SMN would still be behind.

FCOB definitely requires more MP awareness for SMN compared to previous Coils though.