Thread: 2.4 SMN Class Issues

*Before you read this post, please note the specific points addressed are primarily based on the purpose of endgame raiding, min/max values of stats, rotation efficiency, and class balance. The specific breakdowns and issues expressed may not apply to a large bulk of the community, or to content outside of the endgame raiding environment. Additionally, this is primarily a SMN specific post; I understand there are issues with other classes as well, but such will not be included here.

What I am hoping for through this post is to perhaps receive some SE representation, or feedback addressing these specific issues. Whether it is a change or just an explanation of the reasoning behind such issues existing, any sort of feedback is greatly appreciated. There are multiple threads discussing these issues, however, I decided to compile and elaborate upon such.

I am going to specifically address 3 issues involving the current state of the SMN class in patch 2.4; class specific issue of mana, shared gear and stat allocation, and a final portion concerning the status of DPS roles within their respective Disciplines (Magic Vs War).

For reference, my personal experience as SMN is Turns 10-12 killed and Turn 13 progression. (FCoB 1-4) Though I am using examples of endgame primarily, these issues roughly translate to any long term combat or dummy based rotation as well.


Point 1 – Mana Problems:

The SMN class severely lacks an ability to regenerate mana. SMN will run out of mana within a few minutes into an encounter, and effectively become a 0 dps class. The only available, though impractical, solution to this dilemma is Mages Ballad (20% DPS loss for the bard), energy drain (Loss of 20-30 DPS), or a mana potion (loss of Int potion).

Why do I believe none of these options reasonably viable?

In most cases, an efficient healer will not run out of mana quickly enough to warrant a Mage’s Ballad. The 20% DPS loss over what is perhaps a 30 second interval of Mage’s Ballad performed 2-3 times in an encounter will cost a Bard a hefty DPS loss. The current reality remains that an Army’s Paeon for a melee class provides a greater tradeoff of loss for gain in. Requiring a bard to sing Mage’s Ballad as opposed to an Army’s Paeon is never an acceptable option in a DPS check environment; given that the TP to MP ratio of maximum DPS gained us is exponentially greater in the form of TP regeneration. I do not consider this a reasonable solution.

The incapability for a class to sustain DPS without the support of another class’ output, given the lack of maximum capacity* of the class, does not warrant the use of this skill. *(Example: Max capacity of MNK DPS with song support being 500+, such for SMN being roughly 420+.) In short, a bard will rarely sing for just a SMN, and for very good reason.

The return on energy drain is a set amount, though such amount is minuscule in that it will only return 1 DoT or 2 Ruin Is, in exchange for a fester loss, which on per hit relations is about 500-1000 damage per use. Assuming 3 [Energy Drains] per minute, this roughly translates to 25-50 DPS lost. With the regenerated mana, output estimates can range from about a 10 DPS gain, which still on average net to a 15-40 DPS loss.

The average 4 minute X-Pot of Mana vs. 4 min X-Pot of Int; the massive boost of main stat tradeoff to help meeting a DPS check versus returning enough mana to put on just 1 set of DoTs, this seems obvious enough to warrant no explanation.

The Final Coil of Bahamut encounters:

In a standard fight the SMN class will, while performing an optimal DPS output rotation, run out of mana within 4-6 minutes on a single target. On an encounter with additional add mob phases, such as T10, the issue arises much quicker coming towards 3-4 minutes.

This is not spamming Ruin II and trying to auto attack; this is through pure upkeep of all 3 primary dots, Miasma II during contagions or adds phases, and constantly shadow flare on live targets. Utilizing Ruin II only during GCD prior to Fester. Energy drain is non-optimal and should not be a factor as the DPS lost and mana gained is such a minuscule amount that it is equivalent to 2 Ruin Is in effect. In effect, a skill used every GCD/off GCD to maximize output of DPS.

What does this entail? Without a pure support or massive loss of DPS output, the SMN has no viable way to retain or regenerate mana. This makes the SMN a less viable or at the very least a less efficient alternative to a BLM or another class type.


Possible fixes that may not break class balance:

- Increase Energy Drain returns on Mana.

- Lower Mana cost of skills.

- At the cost of the mana issues present, allow for a higher capacity output of SMN to equal that of TP regeneration for the physical classes to add balance. By providing equal gain from TP/Mana songs in effect, the output by the SMN may justify the loss by the bard or alternatively the physical DPS.


Point 2 - Shared Gear and Stat Weights:

BLM vs SMN: Each respective class gains different things from certain stat points. The BLM can make use of DET/CRIT/SS/ACC in fair value in which every stat can viably give them a roundabout boost; the SMN can use DET/CRIT/ACC, however, SS (spellspeed) is not a usable stat.

This is, however, not only limited to both caster classes. Out of all Stats values, spellspeed affects the SMN the least/most negatively more than any other stat to any other class. Even skillspeed for DoW by nature, while the least desirable stat to most classes and builds, can still do faster damage at the return of quicker resource cost; overall output is still increased due to the damage per hit type of output, versus a set damage over time formula.

For a SMN at this point, spell speed does nothing; as matter of fact in longer encounters it is a negative stat that lowers overall DPS efficiency:

Due to the current mana issues, Spellspeed reduces the efficiency of the SMN class to the extent that not having a second secondary stat may potentially allow for better DPS sustainment over time; one could even consider this stat a DPS loss given you run out of mana quicker having used more Ruins with such low potency over having put up an additional DoT. Assuming a fight in which a SMN runs out of mana, one may have to effectively stand and not use Ruin entirely; though doing such would by highly counterproductive to the raid environment and further support the case for the SMN class being unwelcome in the FCoB or any long term encounter due to its inability to provide enough DPS output.

Now, this is not to say that spellspeed is entirely a negative stat, because by value it does add to the high end capacity for a SMN to do damage. However, in practice, due to the mana constraints at this stage in the game combined with the nature of the way SMN damage works, spellspeed on SMN is viewable as a negative stat.

What spellspeed does is increase the amount of maximum Ruins over an encounter, but only by a small margin. Spellspeed does not affect any other skills on SMN except “Ruin” which in approximation is only 10% of the SMNs DPS. (An x.x% increase of 10% is still too miniscule an effect.) In essence, this is maybe a 3-5 DPS increase, at the loss of mana, which in turn leads to the above mentioned mana issues, resulting in a DPS loss.

Spellspeed does not affect DoT damage, which is roughly 60% of the SMN class’ damage output, nor does it affect the pet which is roughly 30% of the total damage. No matter how quickly you can cast a DoT, assuming refresh on timer, damage will remain the same no matter how quickly you cast it.

Equipment:

The current 2.4 i130 Best in Slot (BiS) armor options are mostly balanced with the exception of 1 particular piece of gear; the chestpiece of both Poetics and Dreadworm have spellspeed, allowing the BLM to have 2 primary usable stats, while the SMN only has 1. (The SMN BiS belt choice will be Spellspeed/Crit, but at least in this case we were allowed the option of having acc/det as an alternative.)

While I may not entirely agree with shared caster gear for 2 classes that hold entirely different stat as valued, I understand the concept of caster gear being in the style of a cloth wearing spellcaster type. The constraints of asking for an entirely independent set of armor though desirable, is understandably another strain upon the development team and the game production time. Purely for the sake of armor distribution fairness, there should be at least 1 type of either Tome or Raid set armor in which 1 stat is NOT useless for a specific class.

Therein lays the 2 fundamental problems of SMN itemization limitations. First is the issue in which 1 specific stat holds no positive weight for 1 class specifically. Second is every other class having having 2 different sets of their own independent armor choices with viable stats, split between Tome and Raid equipment; the SMN is the only class that does not have this option. This shared gear issue alone however, is not the most pressing concern.

The 120/130 Weapon for SMN, as well as the 135 weapon for SMN both have spellspeed, an entirely undesirable stat for the SMN class. The BLM 120/130 weapon gives the BLM 2 secondary stats of DPS valuable weight, while the SMN in the 120/130 receives 0 DPS value. The SMN receives accuracy, which is understandably a fair stat to have, but is followed by spellspeed, which in essence is an efficiency decrease. This should be replaced by Det/Crit or even piety. Likewise the 135 weapon; the Spellspeed should be replaced with Det or reworked entirely with 2 different stat sets. This concept applies to the current DoW weapons at 135, the majority consist of perfect upgrade stats of Det/Crit. SMN is once again the only class with 1 effectively usable secondary stat.

The itemization and stat distribution for SMN this patch in comparison to every other combat class, especially on the weapon, seems questionable.

Additionally, the completion of the final raid encounters of the current 2.X series should not result in reward of a sub-par weapon.

Possible Solutions:

- Change the effects of Spellspeed and/or modify the SMN class so the stat of Spellspeed holds value.

- Allow Spellspeed to reduce the cooldowns (recast timer) of all SMN spells (Aetherflow, Energy Drain, Fester) pet skills (Rouse, Spur, Enkindle) and all pet attacks.

- Replace spellspeed on SMN specific gear, unless you intend to 1) add mana regeneration to SS and/or 2) reduce the timing of DoT ticks in which SS makes DoT spells tick faster. *

*Note: If spellspeed made dots tick faster, I would be a very happy SMN.


Point 3 - Disciple of Magic vs Disciple of War

Ultimately, one may read the above issues and ask “why does any of it matter if you can still keep doing DPS, whether your maximum damage and efficiency or rotation and output is attained or not?”

It matters because the current DoM vs DoW DPS ratios are already imbalanced by a great margin; alongside the factor of endgame min/max and efficiency.

DPS roles and utility in raid environment:

These are very rough estimates of DPS capacity values in 110 gear in raids:

MNK: 400-520+
Pure DPS class; Dragon Kick Debuff.

NIN: 400-500+
Pure DPS class; Trick Attack Debuff + Goad

DRG: 380-440
(This class is being reworked already to fix the balance issue to match NIN/MNK?)

BRD: 370-430
DPS + Utility of Foe/TP/MP songs. A must have of every raid.*
*Note: Removing or at the very least lowering the song damage debuff against bards would be a nice change.

SMN: 370-430
DPS Class; Virus and Eye for an Eye, resurrection - mana used results in massive dps loss as a tradeoff.

BLM: 350-450+
Pure DPS Class; AoE specialist, “infinite” mana – self sufficient

MNK/NIN is the current primary Physical DPS powerhouses, with capacities of 500+.

Currently BLM/SMN, in most cases the DPS will top end roughly 450 with everything going perfectly, lower in majority of situations; all relative to the comparison of the top end physical DPS.

While I understand that each class has its utility, the difference in capacity of a caster vs melee should not be 50-70+ DPS. Not to mention such is only the case when AoE phases exist that allow caster classes to catch up. If SE’s policy and publicly shared sentiment of “we will not favor any specific class to make them the only viable class option” is in fact true, there is clearly a balance issue present here.

The primary point being that the Magic class should be capable of reaching similar maximum caps to the physical class types. The difference is too great for the classes to be considered balanced. This is not to say that BLM and SMN both need a massive DPS boost that would result in both being top DPS in capacity, but a slight boost for both classes in potency would seem to be a fair change. Perhaps a difference of 20-40+ advantage of physical type versus caster types due to added utility of AoE capacity of casters would be more suited, as opposed to 50-70+. This is just a hope that SE may consider and rebalance the classes in the future and possibly take this style of thought into consideration.


Just a small note on BLM vs SMN:

The high BLM potency single target capacity vs SMN and their AoE dominance are balanced fairly with the SMNs utility provided. In the case of SMN vs BLM, I feel there is a very good balance done by SE between the 2, pending the SMN mana and gear balance issues addressed above.

===

Thank you for taking the time to read this; any feedback from the community and SE is greatly appreciated.

I honestly believe that the dev team may rework arcanist. Not by a large degree, but fix some problems the class has. Arcanist has a trait that gives the player increase spell speed when your pet crits, what the hell SE!?

I agree with much of what you stated, though I main BLM I did try SMN on T10-12 for utility purposes and found it just rather abysmal. Honestly I think the numbers, as you said, are fine in terms of SMN vs. BLM but it just really ruins the flow of the SMN as a job to have to worry so much about your mana. Aetherflowing on CD as part of your rotation is one thing, but having to energy drain just feels "bad" when Fester is a much more desirable option. If SE refuses to budge on moving caster/ranged DPS numbers to be more in line with melee (and I don't mind melee doing "more" but design more fights where ranged won't always be outclassed by melee) then at the very least keep SMN numbers the same and just make them a little more mana efficient somehow.

I particularly like SMN in T10-13 due to INT Virus being very desirable, being able to get trapped the Wild Charge freeze, or having to move T11-13 while keeping up DPS consistently. Gotta say though, the MP is just too much of a downer - can get Foe's on BLM to do very exceptional damage, or get Ballad on SMN to just keep up the regular damage ... too large a difference. BLM wins right now.

Originally Posted by Sleigh

I particularly like SMN in T10-13 due to INT Virus being very desirable, being able to get trapped the Wild Charge freeze, or having to move T11-13 while keeping up DPS consistently. Gotta say though, the MP is just too much of a downer - can get Foe's on BLM to do very exceptional damage, or get Ballad on SMN to just keep up the regular damage ... too large a difference. BLM wins right now.

Yea, my guild is working on T13 right now with a NIN, MNK, BRD, BLM dps comp, between the lack of need of mana song for longer than a minute or so OR TP song (goad is amazing) the Foes uptime literally keeps my dps on par with the Ninja and the Monk. Its crazy. I'm sure SMN could do the same if they didn't have the mana issues.

Originally Posted by Sleigh

I particularly like SMN in T10-13 due to INT Virus being very desirable, being able to get trapped the Wild Charge freeze, or having to move T11-13 while keeping up DPS consistently. Gotta say though, the MP is just too much of a downer - can get Foe's on BLM to do very exceptional damage, or get Ballad on SMN to just keep up the regular damage ... too large a difference. BLM wins right now.

SCH should really be the one virusing. The antibody debuff really took away a lot of the power of virus. It should be used when a big hit is coming. It'll most likely cause somewhat of a DPS loss if a SMN drops what they're doing to use it before a big hit.

Originally Posted by Sequora

SCH should really be the one virusing. The antibody debuff really took away a lot of the power of virus. It should be used when a big hit is coming. It'll most likely cause somewhat of a DPS loss if a SMN drops what they're doing to use it before a big hit.

90s recast, 60s Anti-body. In T13 it can be valuable against Akhs/Rage of Bahamuts to have two INT Virus users. Think T11 has times you'd want 60s recast on Virus but I'm not sure.

While I do agree with everything you said, and I don't know if this has an impact on current balance issues or not, the skill gap between a good Summoner and a good Blackmage is quite big. You can have an above average SMN put up decent numbers in any content while a not so good BLM will always be lowest on DPS charts imo especially in end-game content that requires excessive movements and such.